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 Post subject: ESPN's top 10 F1 debuts
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:06 am 
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It's from 2011 but I just came across it and thought it might be of interest.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/59263.html

In no apparent order (includes replacement drivers):

G Villeneuve
R Kubica
G Baghetti
M Andretti
S Vettel
R Rodriguez
M Webber
M Schumacher
J Alesi

Not sure what the criteria was. Personally I have to emphatically agree with Schumi, Webber, Andretti and Villeneuve.

Struggling to remember what Vettel and Kubica did on their debuts that was so impressive. Vettel was young but he'd done plenty of testing and the BMW was miles quicker than several cars that finished in front of him. And not-so-quick Nick outqualified him by the best part of a second (IIRC) in the other beemer. Kubica at least outq'd Heidfeld but it was such a crazy race I can't remember whether he did anything special or just kept it on the road (maybe that's special enough for a rookie in a race like that). As he was then disqualified it seems odd to say it's one of the top 10 debuts of all time. Am I forgetting the nuances and going too much on the stats?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:35 am 
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Awful list Where is Jacques or Lewis?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Awful list Where is Jacques or Lewis?

The first thing I thought, but I didn't fancy appearing to question Vettel in the same post as appearing to praise Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Awful list Where is Jacques or Lewis?


That's what I thought.

Balibari wrote:
I didn't fancy appearing to question Vettel in the same post as appearing to praise Hamilton.


That's what I thought.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Kubica and Vettel? No Hamilton or Baby Villenueve? Are they serious?

The former two got minor points and the latter two got a podium each. Baffling.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Even de la Rosa finished 6th on his debut in an Arrows which started 18th.

This kind of list can be rather subjective.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Worth remembering that Lewis had thousands of miles of testing before his debut, and whilst I'm not sure about Jacques, he had plenty of Indy experience, not forgetting they had both title winning cars, so I can see why they're not in there.

Kubica did have an impressive debut, in a difficult race where many better drivers also struggled. He made it to Q3 and outqualifed Heidfeld. As for Vettel, while he was 7 tenths slower than Heidfeld, I don't think he'd ever driven at Indy, and he was only outqualifed by both Ferraris, both McLarens, his very experienced teammate, and Kovalainen, which is about the only person you could argue he should have been ahead of. In the race, although he scored a point for 8th, he was only one second behind 6th placed Trulli, so I can certainly see why they're both in there.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Worth remembering that Lewis had thousands of miles of testing before his debut, and whilst I'm not sure about Jacques, he had plenty of Indy experience, not forgetting they had both title winning cars, so I can see why they're not in there.

Kubica did have an impressive debut, in a difficult race where many better drivers also struggled. He made it to Q3 and outqualifed Heidfeld. As for Vettel, while he was 7 tenths slower than Heidfeld, I don't think he'd ever driven at Indy, and he was only outqualifed by both Ferraris, both McLarens, his very experienced teammate, and Kovalainen, which is about the only person you could argue he should have been ahead of. In the race, although he scored a point for 8th, he was only one second behind 6th placed Trulli, so I can certainly see why they're both in there.

Both Vettel and Kubica had plenty miles under their belts in the cars they made their debuts in thanks to Friday practice. So that isn't really a reason for having them on the list and not Hamilton or JV.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:23 pm 
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In the entry for 'One bad.'

I must have dreamed Luca Badoer's debut for Scuderia Italia back in 1993..... :-|


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:28 pm 
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I would assume that Hamilton's exclusion from the list is because his debut was in one of the fastest cars on the grid, which is to say the least very unusual circumstances and one would expect better results that one would by a driver starting in a mid-field or back-marker car.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Worth remembering that Lewis had thousands of miles of testing before his debut, and whilst I'm not sure about Jacques, he had plenty of Indy experience, not forgetting they had both title winning cars, so I can see why they're not in there.

Kubica did have an impressive debut, in a difficult race where many better drivers also struggled. He made it to Q3 and outqualifed Heidfeld. As for Vettel, while he was 7 tenths slower than Heidfeld, I don't think he'd ever driven at Indy, and he was only outqualifed by both Ferraris, both McLarens, his very experienced teammate, and Kovalainen, which is about the only person you could argue he should have been ahead of. In the race, although he scored a point for 8th, he was only one second behind 6th placed Trulli, so I can certainly see why they're both in there.

As Laura says, they both had a lot of testing mileage under their belts. Remember test drivers were known as 'Friday' drivers back then, so I'm not sure that's a valid point. At first I assumed Hamilton and Villeneuve were omited because, as you say, they had such strong cars. But so did others who made the list.

To me Vettel seems to have done as well as someone might reasonably expect of him. I'm not criticising that, in itself it's an acheivement many have failed to replicate, but this is the description of a decent debut, not one of the best ever, that's the point I'm questioning. Ultimately Vettel had a car that should have finished 5th (Heidfeld was out, the Renault's and Toyota's were nowhere near as quick as the BMW) but finished 8th. I'm not criticising him for that, the intervening years have shown him to be special. I'm just questioning why his debut is considered special.

And plenty of people make their debut at a track they haven't raced at before, I'm not sure that's a defence when comparing debuts.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:37 pm 
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What a strange list. Surely Perez should be on the list as well, or Kobayashi, if Kubica and Vettel are on there?
Didn't Perez finish in the points only to be disqualified (like Kubica)?
Didn't Kobayashi make people go "Hey, this guy's good" (or crazy), including the Champion to be Button over the radio?

Then ofcourse Hamilton and Jacques... good car or not it's still an impressive debut to get on the podium. If we're going by car standards, then Kubica finishing 7th in a midfield car is pretty good, and a podium for a McLaren is pretty good.

Stupid list. ESPN, pah.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Quite a dumb list . If vettel and kubica were there, then so should raikkonen among others. The pressure on him that weekend was enormous thanks to mosley and he had a pretty flawless weekend.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:59 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
What a strange list. Surely Perez should be on the list as well, or Kobayashi, if Kubica and Vettel are on there?
Didn't Perez finish in the points only to be disqualified (like Kubica)?
Didn't Kobayashi make people go "Hey, this guy's good" (or crazy), including the Champion to be Button over the radio?

Then ofcourse Hamilton and Jacques... good car or not it's still an impressive debut to get on the podium. If we're going by car standards, then Kubica finishing 7th in a midfield car is pretty good, and a podium for a McLaren is pretty good.

Stupid list. ESPN, pah.

It's always going to be hard to compare a well prepared driver in a top car to some poor bugger thrown at the back of the grid with no support or warning. But Hamilton had overtaken the sport's benchmark (his lead driver) within ten seconds of beginning his F1 race career! That's a fair start in my book.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
What a strange list. Surely Perez should be on the list as well, or Kobayashi, if Kubica and Vettel are on there?
Didn't Perez finish in the points only to be disqualified (like Kubica)?
Didn't Kobayashi make people go "Hey, this guy's good" (or crazy), including the Champion to be Button over the radio?

Then ofcourse Hamilton and Jacques... good car or not it's still an impressive debut to get on the podium. If we're going by car standards, then Kubica finishing 7th in a midfield car is pretty good, and a podium for a McLaren is pretty good.

Stupid list. ESPN, pah.

It's always going to be hard to compare a well prepared driver in a top car to some poor bugger thrown at the back of the grid with no support or warning. But Hamilton had overtaken the sport's benchmark (his lead driver) within ten seconds of beginning his F1 race career! That's a fair start in my book.

Definately not a bad start to a career, to put a move on your double world champion teammate in the first corner of your F1 racing career. Not tardy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:08 pm 
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This thread has prompted me to dig out my recording of Australia 2007 :)

This will be an enjoyable couple of hours!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Both Vettel and Kubica had plenty miles under their belts in the cars they made their debuts in thanks to Friday practice. So that isn't really a reason for having them on the list and not Hamilton or JV.

Again, see that the other two had championship winning cars, especially JV. Note that I'm not trying to take anything away from any four of their performances.

Balibari wrote:
As Laura says, they both had a lot of testing mileage under their belts. Remember test drivers were known as 'Friday' drivers back then, so I'm not sure that's a valid point. At first I assumed Hamilton and Villeneuve were omited because, as you say, they had such strong cars. But so did others who made the list.

To me Vettel seems to have done as well as someone might reasonably expect of him. I'm not criticising that, in itself it's an acheivement many have failed to replicate, but this is the description of a decent debut, not one of the best ever, that's the point I'm questioning. Ultimately Vettel had a car that should have finished 5th (Heidfeld was out, the Renault's and Toyota's were nowhere near as quick as the BMW) but finished 8th. I'm not criticising him for that, the intervening years have shown him to be special. I'm just questioning why his debut is considered special.

And plenty of people make their debut at a track they haven't raced at before, I'm not sure that's a defence when comparing debuts.

I don't disagree. Although I don't think Renault's and Toyota's were massively slower than BM in 2007, I would just rate Heidfeld and Kubica at the time above the at the time Fisi/Kovy/Trulli/Schumacher. For what it's worth, look at who is in that list. More than half of them raced in the 90's, and Baghetti is the only driver to win on his debut, which marks him out (not including the first race and the first Indy 500 for obvious reasons). Villeneuve's Villeneuve, and Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:12 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


Yup, that is it... gotta have that token American on your list.

Of course, Andretti did qualify on the Pole in his debut race.... stupid damn American company thinking that would merit inclusion, when PF1 knows it was just just because he was an American.
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


Yup, that is it... gotta have that token American on your list.

Of course, Andretti did qualify on the Pole in his debut race.... stupid damn American company thinking that would merit inclusion, when PF1 knows it was just just because he was an American.
;)

But M Andretti, how do you know it wasn't Michael Andretti's debut? :-P

(For the purposes of a joke I ignored the original link stated Mario Andretti, if other people can ignore links and ask questions, so will I).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Blake wrote:
I would assume that Hamilton's exclusion from the list is because his debut was in one of the fastest cars on the grid, which is to say the least very unusual circumstances and one would expect better results that one would by a driver starting in a mid-field or back-marker car.

And he performed to the level expected of a driver in one of the fastest cars. Just like JV did. From what I can remember, Vettel and Kubica only performed as well as their cars could in their first races.

A debut is a debut whether it's in one of the fastest cars or not.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


Yup, that is it... gotta have that token American on your list.

Of course, Andretti did qualify on the Pole in his debut race.... stupid damn American company thinking that would merit inclusion, when PF1 knows it was just just because he was an American.
;)
Blake wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


Yup, that is it... gotta have that token American on your list.

Of course, Andretti did qualify on the Pole in his debut race.... stupid damn American company thinking that would merit inclusion, when PF1 knows it was just just because he was an American.
;)

So one poster mentions an american bias and you generalise the whole forum as anti-american ... Nice...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Colinjb wrote:
In the entry for 'One bad.'

I must have dreamed Luca Badoer's debut for Scuderia Italia back in 1993..... :-|

Exactly, this list was clearly compiled by idiots with little F1 knowledge...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Colinjb wrote:
In the entry for 'One bad.'

I must have dreamed Luca Badoer's debut for Scuderia Italia back in 1993..... :-|

Exactly, this list was clearly compiled by idiots with little F1 knowledge...

I thought that too. Unless we were all dreaming... or it was just Deja Vu, we all dreamt of Luca Badoer and then he finally came to fulfil our dreams in 2009.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:41 pm 
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marcus winkelhock is missing.

leading the race in his debut for Spyker


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:45 pm 
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number_two wrote:
marcus winkelhock is missing.

leading the race in his debut for Spyker

Legend, I loved that race. Kimi missing the pits and Winkelhock, and Hamilton's first non-points finish all stand out from just one race...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:08 pm 
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also massa and alonso in bargeboard fight :p


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:11 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Colinjb wrote:
In the entry for 'One bad.'

I must have dreamed Luca Badoer's debut for Scuderia Italia back in 1993..... :-|

Exactly, this list was clearly compiled by idiots with little F1 knowledge...

I thought that too. Unless we were all dreaming... or it was just Deja Vu, we all dreamt of Luca Badoer and then he finally came to fulfil our dreams in 2009.

Maybe it was an imposter in the other 48 races he started 8O ?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:50 pm 
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I'm hardly the biggest fan of Jacques, but I agree with those saying that he and Hamilton deserve to be in there over Vettel and Kubica.

Winkelhock leading on his debut was a complete fluke down to starting on the right tyres rather than anything he did, but that was definitely one of the most entertaining races I've ever watched!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:20 pm 
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sandyf1 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


Yup, that is it... gotta have that token American on your list.

Of course, Andretti did qualify on the Pole in his debut race.... stupid damn American company thinking that would merit inclusion, when PF1 knows it was just just because he was an American.

So one poster mentions an american bias and you generalise the whole forum as anti-american ... Nice...


So one poster mentions an american bias and you generalise the whole forum as anti-american ... Nice...


It's not even American bias. If you were an American writing that article, it's not unlikely to imagine an impressive American debut would stand out, and therefore make it more likely for inclusion. At no point do I even remotely imply that Andretti is undeserving of a spot, and I think he's one of the best drivers ever to race a car with his amount of success he has across many disciplines.


Last edited by Floppy_Boy on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:20 pm 
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KateLM wrote:
I'm hardly the biggest fan of Jacques, but I agree with those saying that he and Hamilton deserve to be in there over Vettel and Kubica.

Winkelhock leading on his debut was a complete fluke down to starting on the right tyres rather than anything he did, but that was definitely one of the most entertaining races I've ever watched!

One thing to be said for Winklehock that day is he kept his car on the track. I know he had full wets on before everyone else but as a rookie who'd probably never driven an F1 car in that kind of weather he still kept in on the right bit of circuit when others smashed themselves into the barriers. I almost wish he had been given a few more races, just in case.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Already a thread on top debuts! :x ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


It's not even American bias. If you were an American writing that article, it's not unlikely to imagine an impressive American debut would stand out, and therefore make it more likely for inclusion. At no point do I even remotely imply that Andretti is undeserving of a spot, and I think he's one of the best drivers ever to race a car with his amount of success he has across many disciplines.


floppy boy, that may be how you meant it, but when you look at your quote, you discuss Andretti as being an American, then ESPN as being American, and the sentence continues by saying "I can't help but feel it is not a very well compiled list..."

That can easily be construed as implying that Andretti did not deserve inclusion, but because ESPN is an American company, he is on the list.

As I said, you may not have meant it that way, but it does come across as a negative in my view. I think you can see how it would.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:37 pm 
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Johnny Herbert, Brazil 89. Johnny broke both his legs the previous summer and was walking the pitlane in crutches. Given the sheer wealth of driver talent in the late 80s he finished fourth on his debut. For my money one of the most impressive debuts...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
It's from 2011 but I just came across it and thought it might be of interest.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/59263.html

In no apparent order (includes replacement drivers):

G Villeneuve
R Kubica
G Baghetti
M Andretti
S Vettel
R Rodriguez
M Webber
M Schumacher
J Alesi

Not sure what the criteria was. Personally I have to emphatically agree with Schumi, Webber, Andretti and Villeneuve.

Struggling to remember what Vettel and Kubica did on their debuts that was so impressive. Vettel was young but he'd done plenty of testing and the BMW was miles quicker than several cars that finished in front of him. And not-so-quick Nick outqualified him by the best part of a second (IIRC) in the other beemer. Kubica at least outq'd Heidfeld but it was such a crazy race I can't remember whether he did anything special or just kept it on the road (maybe that's special enough for a rookie in a race like that). As he was then disqualified it seems odd to say it's one of the top 10 debuts of all time. Am I forgetting the nuances and going too much on the stats?

Vettel gets on the list because he managed to score a point in the 3rd fastest car thanks in part to a couple of retirements and he was close to half a second slower than his teammate both in qualifying and the race, his teammate being Heidfeld? :?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:53 pm 
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I'm not sure I understand how burning your clutch constitutes a great F1 debut. :?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Floppy_Boy wrote:
Andretti was a American WDC (ESPN being American), so I can't help but feel it's not a very well compiled list or that it was researched exhaustively.


It's not even American bias. If you were an American writing that article, it's not unlikely to imagine an impressive American debut would stand out, and therefore make it more likely for inclusion. At no point do I even remotely imply that Andretti is undeserving of a spot, and I think he's one of the best drivers ever to race a car with his amount of success he has across many disciplines.


floppy boy, that may be how you meant it, but when you look at your quote, you discuss Andretti as being an American, then ESPN as being American, and the sentence continues by saying "I can't help but feel it is not a very well compiled list..."

That can easily be construed as implying that Andretti did not deserve inclusion, but because ESPN is an American company, he is on the list.

As I said, you may not have meant it that way, but it does come across as a negative in my view. I think you can see how it would.

Perhaps, but you've only singled out one part of my quote. If you look at it in context, I was using it as one of several reasons to suggest whoever wrote it might have wrote it from a quick scan through his/her memory, or without having heavily researched it because a majority of them were either prominent or recently.

I can see how you would think it however, and absolutely no disrespect meant (I've a feeling this might come across a negative as well!) and in a completely neutral manner, but if anyone were to see it that way, you would be a likely candidate. If I had said Schumacher was a German, and it was written by someone at RTL, or Hamilton is English and it was written by someone at BBC in the same context, would you have thought I meant it negatively as well? If so, then apologies on my part for vague posting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
I'm not sure I understand how burning your clutch constitutes a great F1 debut. :?

I think the qualifying performance might had somethng to do with it ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:16 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
I'm not sure I understand how burning your clutch constitutes a great F1 debut. :?

I was tempted to say something along those lines :D ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Colinjb wrote:
In the entry for 'One bad.'

I must have dreamed Luca Badoer's debut for Scuderia Italia back in 1993..... :-|

If you look at the top of the article it say best debuts & replacements. So I'm thinking that they're referring to Luca's replacement role in '09.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Balibari wrote:
It's from 2011 but I just came across it and thought it might be of interest.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/59263.html

In no apparent order (includes replacement drivers):

G Villeneuve
R Kubica
G Baghetti
M Andretti
S Vettel
R Rodriguez
M Webber
M Schumacher
J Alesi

Not sure what the criteria was. Personally I have to emphatically agree with Schumi, Webber, Andretti and Villeneuve.

Struggling to remember what Vettel and Kubica did on their debuts that was so impressive. Vettel was young but he'd done plenty of testing and the BMW was miles quicker than several cars that finished in front of him. And not-so-quick Nick outqualified him by the best part of a second (IIRC) in the other beemer. Kubica at least outq'd Heidfeld but it was such a crazy race I can't remember whether he did anything special or just kept it on the road (maybe that's special enough for a rookie in a race like that). As he was then disqualified it seems odd to say it's one of the top 10 debuts of all time. Am I forgetting the nuances and going too much on the stats?

Vettel gets on the list because he managed to score a point in the 3rd fastest car thanks in part to a couple of retirements and he was close to half a second slower than his teammate both in qualifying and the race, his teammate being Heidfeld? :?

Or because at 19 he was the youngest driver to score points in an F1 championship race.


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