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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
With the fact that Massa was able to beat Alonso towards the end of the season i was hoping that issues regarding his injury could be finally put to bed but it seems that if Alonso continues to dominate him it will always be there


Not necessarily, pokerman. I too hope that it is behind him, and it can be... the end of the last season would be a great way to start a new year.

It may finally be behind Massa, but to claim that the accident has never been a factor or a valid excuse for the poor driving of Massa for nearly 2 years is a bit ridiculous to me. If it were never a factor, then what did happen to cause Massa to lose pace for that period of time. Just coincidence that he had the accident, recovered from a physical standpoint and then just couldn't drive quickly and consistently any more??? Seems like a hell of a reach to me.

There is another small factor, it could just be that Alonso is a better driver... after all... there are those who think he is the best driver in F1 at the time (myself included). So, Massa could still be a great driver, but not rack up wins.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:33 pm 
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Blake wrote:
the incubus wrote:
All do respect, I think by now it's a forgone conclusion that Alonso does indeed command #1 status at Ferrari. The whole "Fernando is Faster than You" incident was all we needed for confirmation of that distinction and we certainly got it. Having said that, "IF" Felipe Baby shoots right out of the gate and bests Fernando in at least 3 of the first 5 races, I think Ferrari may begin to realize they should make every effort to support Felipe. that being said, Fernando will not take something of that nature lying down so a real fight will begin and we could see another Senna/Prost like inter team dynamic. Massa may have played lap dog the last couple of seasons but he was not in the hunt for the championship. While he's visibly upset at times, he's kept pretty quiet and gone with the flow regardless of how he felt. If he finds himself in a position where he is leading Fernando and the team decides to step in, I don't think Felipe will lie down and would call BS on the team. He's a sweet person but he is also feisty and fiery when he feels the need for it. Ferrari has for the last 18 years employed a policy of #1 & #1 drivers. Schumacher for instance was always the CLEAR #1 on the team and then when Kimi was brought on by di Montezemolo it was as the lead driver. Then when they forced Kimi out for Alonso, it was again to have who they felt was the best driver and again as the lead driver on the team. Some will disagree and call BS on this but all you have to do is imagine both drivers going to Ferrari and saying they can't work together and one of them has to go!…

I think everyone on the planet knows Fernando wont be the one they send packing.

I think 'Nuff said on this.



As for Felipe, I've read that he sought help from a sports psychologist last season and that it really helped him gain a better perspective on things and his career and that was the difference towards the end of the year. I hope for him that he can maintain that form for all of 2013 and I will certainly be cheering for him. Go Felipe Baby!!!


There is, of course, a "status" line at Ferrari, and why shouldn't there be. Schumi was #1 because he was better.... it is that simple. Rubens was not his equal, nor was anyone else in the game at the time.

Kimi came in without a WDC to his name, just as his teammate Massa. Kimi as fast as he is made people think he would be #1, but still he had to prove himself... this time against a teammate who was more familiar with the team and how it works. As a result, we had tight competition between the two drivers. Kimi won in 2007 with the support of Massa and in 2008, Massa came within a hair of winning the WDC for himself. So in those years, I think you saw Ferrari's policy. If a driver, either driver establish themselves as the team's best chance at post season glory, then that driver becomes the lead driver, and the other driver is expected to fill the support role.

Then we move on to the Alonso years... he comes in as a 2x WDC, Massa a solid team driver. Unfortunately for Massa, things take a bad turn with his accident, and he struggles to get back to the consistently fast form that he had before. I have seen several in here take pop shots at Massa basically saying that the accident was no excuse, but to be honest with those of you, I think that is bullshit. The man not only was fighting for his health, but he was also losing time in his car all the while Alonso was getting more and more accustomed to the cars and the team.

When Massa came back, he showed some flashes of the 2008 Massa, but never really developed the consistency he had before. To his credit, he did not use it as an excuse, but can anyone really say that the post accident Massa was the same driver as the 2008 Massa? Prior to the accident we did not see people screaming for him to be fired, yet in 2011 and 2012 we sure did. Why is that? It is because he was not the same driver. I don't know if it was/is a lingering effect of the accident physically, a mental block or just a lack of confidence brought on by his struggles AND being told Alonso is faster than you. What I do know is that in the second half of 2012, we saw what Massa used to be, and that made me pretty damn happy. I sincerely hope that it is the Massa we see to start 2013, and if it is, he can compete for the WDC... Alonso or not.

Ferrari are not idiots, they recognize that the WCC can only be won with both cars scoring big points... so there won't be any sabotaging of Massa's car for the benefit of Alonso, no matter what some may want to think.
;)

Well said, both of you.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Kimi came in without a WDC to his name, just as his teammate Massa. Kimi as fast as he is made people think he would be #1, but still he had to prove himself... this time against a teammate who was more familiar with the team and how it works. As a result, we had tight competition between the two drivers. Kimi won in 2007 with the support of Massa and in 2008, Massa came within a hair of winning the WDC for himself. So in those years, I think you saw Ferrari's policy. If a driver, either driver establish themselves as the team's best chance at post season glory, then that driver becomes the lead driver, and the other driver is expected to fill the support role.


Let's analyze the bits in bold for a minute… Massa was a team player when his teammates needed him but when it was hid bid for the championship the 2nd Ferrari was usually nowhere to be found to shave points off Mass'a closest rivals in the chase for the championship.

Now with regards to Rubens and Michael, Yes Michael was the best driver bar none throughout his partnership years with Rubens but you'd be kidding yourself if you think Rubens wasn't at times equal to or better than Michael. Mind you, Michael is my favorite driver of all time so me saying this should say how unbiased that opinion is. Poor old Rubens was forced to move over by Ferrari because they wanted their "Lead" Driver to cross the line in front of their #2. Rubens however is what I would consider too nice of a guy and took too much crap from Ferrari when he should have told them to [expletive] off and raced his heart out. There were times when at Ferrari, Rubens was untouchable, not even by Michael and I don't like when a driver of his talent and abilities is spoken of as anything less. Yes Michael was better than him over their careers, but Rubens came into his own and was a viable threat to Michael for at least a couple of seasons, where the team stepped in and made sure he knew his role.

While at Brawn, Rubens let the opportunity of a lifetime slip through his fingers because he was on equal footing with Jenson but he had the advantage of having worked with the team for many years prior to them coming on board with Honda. Again, his Too Nice a guy demeanor bit him in the donkey, and this time it was his own fault.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:25 pm 
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Ferrari sees no reason why it should not be allowed the WCC in order to foster Fernando Alonso's chances at a WDC for a fourth year. RBR hasn't had to do that with Webber, so they figure that they can legitimately fight for the biggest prize if Massa is allowed to race AND support the drivers' individual bid for the WDC.

The difficulty is Massa outracing Alonso - which can happen, and which, seriously or faticiously, Alonso has agreed with ("Massa is one of the greatest drivers in the world!") Because in that scenario, you have a 2008 situation with Massa being given the #1 status over the driver who it is believed would have it. Kimi actually did go along with that ideology, but he is very laid back. I have serious doubts Alonso would be on board with that scenario. He would pull a Webber at best.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:45 pm 
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Blake wrote:
the incubus wrote:
All do respect, I think by now it's a forgone conclusion that Alonso does indeed command #1 status at Ferrari. The whole "Fernando is Faster than You" incident was all we needed for confirmation of that distinction and we certainly got it. Having said that, "IF" Felipe Baby shoots right out of the gate and bests Fernando in at least 3 of the first 5 races, I think Ferrari may begin to realize they should make every effort to support Felipe. that being said, Fernando will not take something of that nature lying down so a real fight will begin and we could see another Senna/Prost like inter team dynamic. Massa may have played lap dog the last couple of seasons but he was not in the hunt for the championship. While he's visibly upset at times, he's kept pretty quiet and gone with the flow regardless of how he felt. If he finds himself in a position where he is leading Fernando and the team decides to step in, I don't think Felipe will lie down and would call BS on the team. He's a sweet person but he is also feisty and fiery when he feels the need for it. Ferrari has for the last 18 years employed a policy of #1 & #1 drivers. Schumacher for instance was always the CLEAR #1 on the team and then when Kimi was brought on by di Montezemolo it was as the lead driver. Then when they forced Kimi out for Alonso, it was again to have who they felt was the best driver and again as the lead driver on the team. Some will disagree and call BS on this but all you have to do is imagine both drivers going to Ferrari and saying they can't work together and one of them has to go!…

I think everyone on the planet knows Fernando wont be the one they send packing.

I think 'Nuff said on this.



As for Felipe, I've read that he sought help from a sports psychologist last season and that it really helped him gain a better perspective on things and his career and that was the difference towards the end of the year. I hope for him that he can maintain that form for all of 2013 and I will certainly be cheering for him. Go Felipe Baby!!!


There is, of course, a "status" line at Ferrari, and why shouldn't there be. Schumi was #1 because he was better.... it is that simple. Rubens was not his equal, nor was anyone else in the game at the time.

Kimi came in without a WDC to his name, just as his teammate Massa. Kimi as fast as he is made people think he would be #1, but still he had to prove himself... this time against a teammate who was more familiar with the team and how it works. As a result, we had tight competition between the two drivers. Kimi won in 2007 with the support of Massa and in 2008, Massa came within a hair of winning the WDC for himself. So in those years, I think you saw Ferrari's policy. If a driver, either driver establish themselves as the team's best chance at post season glory, then that driver becomes the lead driver, and the other driver is expected to fill the support role.

Then we move on to the Alonso years... he comes in as a 2x WDC, Massa a solid team driver. Unfortunately for Massa, things take a bad turn with his accident, and he struggles to get back to the consistently fast form that he had before. I have seen several in here take pop shots at Massa basically saying that the accident was no excuse, but to be honest with those of you, I think that is bullshit. The man not only was fighting for his health, but he was also losing time in his car all the while Alonso was getting more and more accustomed to the cars and the team.

When Massa came back, he showed some flashes of the 2008 Massa, but never really developed the consistency he had before. To his credit, he did not use it as an excuse, but can anyone really say that the post accident Massa was the same driver as the 2008 Massa? Prior to the accident we did not see people screaming for him to be fired, yet in 2011 and 2012 we sure did. Why is that? It is because he was not the same driver. I don't know if it was/is a lingering effect of the accident physically, a mental block or just a lack of confidence brought on by his struggles AND being told Alonso is faster than you. What I do know is that in the second half of 2012, we saw what Massa used to be, and that made me pretty damn happy. I sincerely hope that it is the Massa we see to start 2013, and if it is, he can compete for the WDC... Alonso or not.

Ferrari are not idiots, they recognize that the WCC can only be won with both cars scoring big points... so there won't be any sabotaging of Massa's car for the benefit of Alonso, no matter what some may want to think.
;)


Hi Blake. I think you are wrong there. Massa didn't lose time at all, he took part in the first testing in 2010. He even topped the sheets in the first day (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10386.html). He didn't lose time at all with the car.

When the season started he was not that bad at all; in fact he was leadng the WDC after the 3 first GP's. I agree that he wasn't consistent, but neither was he in 2008. He still made mistakes back then an had some bad performances. Do you remember him spinning 5 times in that British GP? Or spinning himself off in the Malaysian GP?

So I'm not convinced that the accident affected him that much. Maybe not at all. As you said he has never mentioned anything like that.

Good night for now!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:56 am 
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I see a lot of people say a lot of things here :) All very interesting. However, i think Massa truly should make a proper go for it in this year, and good for him if he gets it. I have seen him perform alongside Michael, and he did show flashes of pure unbridled speed. Against Kimi, he also did rather well. Though there are conspiracy theories suggesting Ferrari were holding Kimi's cat hostage and would have neutered it, if he didn't cede to Massa... I had never seen Irvine, or Barrichello do so well against a team-mate of caliber of Michael, i think if he sorts himself out, he'll be a pain proper for everyone. Can he be as devastatingly consistent as Alonso is a question mark, but perhaps something he'll pick up from Alonso. Here, waiting with a bated breath for the start of the new F1 season, which couldn't come soon enough. :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:28 am 
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Forzaaaaa Felipinho. WDC 2013!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:10 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

poor guy.... hard to win the title when your team does not allow you to even win races



-sigh-

I would love to see Massa do well like he did in the second part of 2012

but Massa did it to himself

if Massa doesnt fvck up like he did in beginning of 2012 and then be 100 points behind Alonso, Ferrari would let him be ahead of Alonso. Why the hell would Ferrari let Massa take points off Alonso when Massa is not even in the title fight anymore?

Things will be different in 2013 IF Massa is consistent from the start, as in MARCH, not SEPTEMBER.

I feel like I need to save this post in case someone like you say something like that again

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