planetf1.com

everybody knows its a colloquialism, fastidious pedants at work.

Brundle used that phrase practically every race in relation to Alonso last year. Damon Hill also uses it.

Don't suggest "Vettel is on fire" the literal police will jump on you.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Its a stupid phrase, and an even worse concept. There really is no such thing as "where it doesn't belong". If its happening, then it was possible, and that is within the available performance of the car. What they really mean is they are surprised to see that the car has more available performance than they thought. That doesn't sound snazzy on tv though, and its not easily understood by the viewers, especially when they want to hear about drivers instead of cars. What they should really do is question why the driver wasn't able to tap into that performance sooner.

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Michael finished some races in places where it defied all logic and common sense. I know you have a background in mechanical side of things, but most of us romanticise this notion of heroes, ones who are superlative in every which manner. I found that it bloody moved me, when i saw Michael finish first after 4 pitstops to Alonso's 3(mind you, Renault was faster that day), and to this day I think it was the men (Brawn and Michael) who made it so. While it is true that the car could do close to 30 odd qualifying laps, but it possibly wouldn't have had with others. I also would like to point a race win while serving penalty in the box.Sometimes willpower is of greater importance than horsepower and then you have a result out of line with performance.

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My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

It was more understandable in the past. Nobody today is suddenly going to have seconds on the field on equal strategies.

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Drivers dont beat other drivers who are driving superior cars?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: Currently 6th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015

As well as Vettel's 2008 season. Toro Rosso shouldn't have scored consistently and no other driver since then has strung a series of points finishes in TR since Vettel left. Take away the Monza win still an impressive feat.

The STR3 was a very fast car. It was the exact same chassis that Red Bull were using and was rumoured to be half a second faster around any given track because of the Ferrari engine that it carried compared to the underpowered Renault engine that the sister team had. Vettel drove very well in 2008, but the car was obviously a very competitive machine and should have delivered those results (Perhaps Monza excluded).

But we've gone way off topic.

Can somebody post a link to where Alonso said this?

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http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/289412/alonso-hamilton-is-the-strongest-driver/
http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/98834.html

But it's both saddening and amusing how people take things out of context and construct a straw house. At Wroom Alonso took time to answer questions from fans on Twitter.

I would say it was a colloquialism, however I have noticed a number of times on PF1 the term being used as a fact as if some drivers can actually defy the laws of physics.

Some posters tend to look at the weaker team mate and say that's were the car belongs and then look at the stronger one and say he out performed it. They use a the term more as fact than merely a saying. It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in this manner.

The putting the car were it doesn't deserve I have heard many times in rallying but due to the regs there it makes sense. If someone is mixing it overall with guys a class or two above them then the car then truly the car is where it doesn't belong. Obviously they shouldn't in theory be competing against faster cars, so when a guy in a 2wd 1600 is putting up times amongst the WRCs obviously it's where it doesn't belong. F1 is a different beast, they are all the same class built to the same regs. They all have similar horsepower so there is no mixing it with the higher classes. They are where they are.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Maybe it's not that he has an opinion, but the fact that lately it seems to be happening all too often. I mean I remember so many articles praising each other the last few months.

As if there's a bromance suddenly!

If seen Alonso ripped to shreds on this forum for some things he's said with some claiming he knows nothing, now he says tht LH is the strongest driver and some of those same people are happy to take this as fact lol

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Multi 21 or Catch 22?!

It ain't hating just 'cause it's not love

I think you should read my answer a bit better A2jdl. I've said that it may as well serve as mind games. It's common tactic in sports/politics/debates etc. afterall. F1 is a cruel place and you get whatever advantage you can get. Nothing wrong with that, it's not illegal!!!

I know it happens. But why is it mind games in this case ?

Also weird that the strongest driver is the only top driver Alonso has beaten for three years running.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

You may read the whole interview, where Alonso explains what it needs to be WDC or in the position therefore

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

I think it's important for the sanity levels to remain at satisfactory levels in this thread to remember that Alonso did not say that Hamilton is the best driver on the grid.

Alonso, as I'm sure is the case with any top level competitive sportsperson, thinks that he himself is the best... obviously. What he said, and he was not even specifically referring to this season, is that Lewis is generally his strongest opponent:

He mentions Hamilton being the strongest driver. Nothing wrong.

He says though "It was true last year, it was true this year".

I can't believe he thinks that Hamilton was the best driver last year (2011). He had his worst year in terms of performance, equalled his worst WDC position and got beaten by his team mate. And he still considers him better than Vettel.

He even touts him to be the strongest next year, in a new team with a car that is consistently more than a second off the leaders.

Don't you think it could be at least a very subtle dig on Vettel?


And the whole "I am not saying he is not the strongest driver." regarding Vettel smells a lot like "I'm not calling you fat, but you're blocking the sun" type of comment.


Again, this doesn't mean that he doesn't rate Vettel or Hamilton that way

Last year was 2012. We have 2013 now.
2012 Hamilton could be argued as the stongest driver
Only driver who made it to q3 every race
made the least mistakes
beat his WDC team mate despite 6 non fault DNFs etc
8 poles
4 wins ( could have been 7)

When Alonso speaks about strongest driver, he speaks about thr driver performance, not the car & not the team.
Hamilton can easily the best driver this year, but not have the best car

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

And that changes the fact that he thinks the strongest driver is the ONLY top driver he has beaten for 3 years running?

In a round about way he's blowing smoke up his own pickle.

2007 he matched the guy he considers the strongest driver.

'10 '11 '12 when Alonso was arguably in an inferior car he beat him.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

It was true last year, it was true this year.

Has this year had any races so far?

If you change every time you've used the word "driver" to the word "opponent" (as was used and implied in the interview) then I think it makes a bit more sense.

Whilst I think there is some ambiguity to what Alonso has said, he does specify that his main opponent for this season will be the person for whom the package of car, team, preparation, luck, testing and ability is best. In terms of his strongest opponent as a driver it's Lewis.

If that fact is considered everything you've said makes a lot more sense in my opinion.

Alonso and Hamilton's love-in of late has been great, its like two jilted lovers who just want to go back to 'the way we was'

A lot of it has got to mind-games, they both must feel sick to their stomachs of four championship dry years. Especially when they have been fighting an uphill battle in two of them (10,12) and been totally out of contention in the other two (09,11).

But saying that I still regard them as the best on the grid, followed by Jense, Seb and Kimi in no particular order.

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Jenson Button
Kimi Raikkonen
Romain Grosjean
Nico Hulkenburg

2010 the Ferrari was not inferior
2012 had nothing to do with Hamiltons driving, Alonso finished higher in the WDC, it was McLarens mistakes, anyone recognised wich cost Hamilton a better standing & probably the WDC.

Look at the times when both had wheel to wheel battels in almost equal cars NÜrburgring 2011 e.g.

IMO Alonso is very well in the postion to recognise how much is down to the driver, the car & the team, when you look at the final standings

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

2010 I said arguably inferior and yes it was. Many said the Ferrari was third best car. It certainly wasn't better in the first half of the year.

in 11 one race does not make a season. Anyone who says the Ferrari was equal to the McLaren in '11 is delusional.

2012 Did I mention Hammys driving? Read what I said I'll repeat it.

THE ONLY TOP DRIVER HE HAS BEATEN THREE YEARS IN A ROW.

Now can you show me where that phrase is wrong?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

I can't believe how you can turn something around like that. Let's see.
- "exact same chassis that RB were using": yeah, so what? Had any look at RB's results that year? That was not a good car. If anything, using that chassis makes Vettels accomplishments in the STR even better
- "was rumoured": let's not use that as a fact. The number is bogus anyway (especially used together with "any given track"), because in e.g. Singapore Vettel was a second faster than Webber in qualifying, whereas on other circuits Webber was a lot faster in qualif.
- "the car was obviously a very competitive machine": no, sorry, it obviously was not. Overall it was a midpack car.

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Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Ofcourse the logic doesn't hold, anyone could see Lewis had an off-season in 2011 and he wouldn't gain anything by denying that.
So he can say, like all his fans are doing, 2011 was a one-time miss and get on with it. That way he doesn't have to say Button is better (and I agree with that, to be honest).

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Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

The only way these sorts of threads are going to get settled is if we have 3 car teams. Alsonso, Vetel, Hamilton. On the McLaren model, not the Ferrari or RBR way to play the game, with either outright team orders or the Marko approach to things.

All things being absolutely equal I'm not sure who would win it by a whisker, but I know who would get the booby prize. Vettel.

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Me Like - Button, Hamilton, Webber, Rosberg
Over rated, over paid - Räikkönen, Alonso, Vettel. Schumacher
Disappointing - Massa, Kobayashi
I may be wrong about - Alonso

imo 2012 was proof enough 2011 was an one off, & Button is not better. Many thought after 2011 JB is the team leader favourite for WDC ( including himself) ,for Lewis it 's a make or break sason, and see what happened
Hamiltpon came back better than ever
"The ultimate meassure for a man is not whee he stands in times of comfort and convenience , but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy "

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

For Lewis that means at the back of the garage using twitter on his iPhone

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

And besides that, all three drivers in the team would have to be treated exactly the same way &, let's face it, all three have been treated as special in their different teams at some stage, plus it would also depend on the way the team worked. Let's face it, Alonso is not going to respond the same way in a mainly English team as Hamilton & Vettel will (just look at Alonso's year at McLaren) & Vettel & Hamilton may not respond very well in a mainly Italian/Latino team (this we have no way of judging as of now). So, let's face it, there are many more variables than just the three drivers being in equal cars in the same team, at least in my humble opinion

You make a good point about how it's never going to be completely neutral, but Fred did a pretty good job in a British team in 2005/2006.

This is a bit on the offtopic, but I have to disagree on this. I think what makes Vettel great is his ability to perform when the car is good. Mark Webber is a fast guy on his day, he has a history of amazing qualifying performances from his career in crappy cars like the Jaguar back in the day. When the car isn't that great, Vettel and Webber are pretty evenly matched. How ever, when the car gets better, suddenly it's Vettel who has clearly the upperhand.

Great drivers just fire up when they smell the win, I think all top drivers who have a championship under their belt do that, some more than others. For winning championships, most of the time it's not so important how you perform in a bad car (unless you really suck), but how you perform in a good car, and I think in this Vettel shines. Maybe Hamilton or Alonso get more out of a bad car than Vettel would, but as team mates with equal treatment in the best team of the grid, I think Vettel would come out as the best.

As for Alonso's comment, it does make sense in political way, but I also think it's his honest opinion. Besides, Hamilton is the only top driver he has driven with in a same team, so he knows how good he is. Also i think drivers judging drivers in other cars, it makes psychologically sense to them to think it's the car that's great, thinking it like that helps them keep a high self confidence, "knowing" that you would beat that guy if you were driving the same car. Everyone on the grid, at least the top drivers must think they're ultimately the best.

>>Great drivers just fire up when they smell the win, I think all top drivers who have a championship under their belt do that, some more than others. For winning championships, most of the time it's not so important how you perform in a bad car (unless you really suck), but how you perform in a good car, and I think in this Vettel shines. Maybe Hamilton or Alonso get more out of a bad car than Vettel would, but as team mates with equal treatment in the best team of the grid, I think Vettel would come out as the best.<<

I personally don't think MW has had equal treatment in respect of being SV's team mate but what is interesting is that SV usually outperforms MW and that means, generally, that SV must be better (which of course, most folk would agree) and that has tended to get him the first 'call' so to speak. So, if we accept SV is better than MW - and that Webbo cannot 'use' one of the best cars on the grid to full potential, AND that SV has had the 'first call' - I still wonder what would happen if Vettel was up against a 'true' driver equal in equal machinery. We know he doesn't mind pressure, but I do recall he doesn't like following his teammate either! I think that Vettel would crack under proper sustained peer pressure from an equal (or better) driver in the same machinery (such as with Hamilton/Alonso). Just my view....and I like Vettel - but I don't see him really being a team player, and could imagine him hiding access to his data, etc..

Did someone really write this?

i like the term used to desrcribe his driving alot when he first appeared , he makes the car dance

i highly doubt that they feel sick to their stomach.

"Sick to their stomach" I don't know, but I'm pretty sure at least Alonso feels pretty bad about having lost 3 WDC's by a few points.
Hamilton, not too sure. He should remain in F1 for a long time, so he has enough time to accomplish more. And I also think that 2012 eased his mind tremendously. He didn't come close to winning the WDC, but he should have been right up there since his driving was superb. Knowing this, and knowing the whole world knows it, is reassuring I guess.

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Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

But then surely its just as easy to say that the drivers in the faster class rallycars are merely underperforming their cars?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: Currently 6th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015

Alonso is still seething from last year. He's probably still seething from 2010. Will he ever get over it?

So every entrant in a higher class just happened to under perform

So when Phillipe Bugalski in the Citreon Xsara Kit car won the Tour De Corse and Catalunya against all the WRC cars the full field of WRC guys under performed that weekend

McRae Sainz Makkinen Panizzi Burns Auriol all Just happened to have two off weekends.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."