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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:

:thumbup: everybody knows its a colloquialism, fastidious pedants at work.

Brundle used that phrase practically every race in relation to Alonso last year. Damon Hill also uses it.

Don't suggest "Vettel is on fire" the literal police will jump on you.



I would say it was a colloquialism, however I have noticed a number of times on PF1 the term being used as a fact as if some drivers can actually defy the laws of physics.

Some posters tend to look at the weaker team mate and say that's were the car belongs and then look at the stronger one and say he out performed it. They use a the term more as fact than merely a saying. It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in this manner.

The putting the car were it doesn't deserve I have heard many times in rallying but due to the regs there it makes sense. If someone is mixing it overall with guys a class or two above them then the car then truly the car is where it doesn't belong. Obviously they shouldn't in theory be competing against faster cars, so when a guy in a 2wd 1600 is putting up times amongst the WRCs obviously it's where it doesn't belong. F1 is a different beast, they are all the same class built to the same regs. They all have similar horsepower so there is no mixing it with the higher classes. They are where they are.

Exactly what I meant.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:41 pm 
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I'm amazed anyone would ever out and out say this.

Surely it is asking for Ferrari to fire him and hire Hamilton if Hamilton is better, and potentially cheaper.

Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel, in my mind are all absolute speed demons. If you could mash them together you'd have a driver close to invincible.

The rest of the race winners in F1 are also no slouches. While you might not ever want to say you are better or the best (you'd sound very, very arrogant - even if you had the stats of Michael Schumacher) it seems odd to say someone is better. Sure, he did beat Alonso - but not by much. Alonso is still ahead in the stats and has been close tot he championshiop multiple times. Lewis only really has 2007 and 2008. I suppose 2010 could count but he was a very long outsider that evening in Abu Dhabi (i did stick a cheeky couple of quid on him though).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:43 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
>>Great drivers just fire up when they smell the win, I think all top drivers who have a championship under their belt do that, some more than others. For winning championships, most of the time it's not so important how you perform in a bad car (unless you really suck), but how you perform in a good car, and I think in this Vettel shines. Maybe Hamilton or Alonso get more out of a bad car than Vettel would, but as team mates with equal treatment in the best team of the grid, I think Vettel would come out as the best.<<

I personally don't think MW has had equal treatment in respect of being SV's team mate but what is interesting is that SV usually outperforms MW and that means, generally, that SV must be better (which of course, most folk would agree) and that has tended to get him the first 'call' so to speak. So, if we accept SV is better than MW - and that Webbo cannot 'use' one of the best cars on the grid to full potential, AND that SV has had the 'first call' - I still wonder what would happen if Vettel was up against a 'true' driver equal in equal machinery. We know he doesn't mind pressure, but I do recall he doesn't like following his teammate either! I think that Vettel would crack under proper sustained peer pressure from an equal (or better) driver in the same machinery (such as with Hamilton/Alonso). Just my view....and I like Vettel - but I don't see him really being a team player, and could imagine him hiding access to his data, etc..

The data belongs to the team and is available to all. There's no hiding it anymore. All a driver and his engineer can hold close is discussion, and the team generally tries to get as much of that as possible on the radio for recording.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:45 pm 
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I believe this entire exercise is publicity on Alonso's and Ferrari's part. All this noise that did come out of Alonso was at Wrooom, and Alonso also did mouth the corporate line, also complaining about lack of testing. I also believe that there's a lot of clutching at straws, and semantics going on concerning Hamilton fans. I also wonder if most actually read his entire interview or just grab snippets and hold them up as gospel.

I'm amused at how the media repackage his comments to suit their agenda of stirring things up to boost circulation. They initially flood the news services with all these comments about Hamilton, and only as an afterthought do they include Alonso's comments on Vettel. Well, actually responsible journalists did include Vettel, it's the news services seeking drama and sensationalism who are responsible for the low quality of journalism.

I'm not even going to repeat what he said about Vettel, I don't need to biggie him up, defend him, or add external confirmation, he's the guy sitting at home with three shiny WDC trophies in his cabinet.

We can play semantics all day, who's the best driver, who's the best racer, who's the strongest driver, each of us have our own personal interpretation. But in the end, and that occurs 24 November 2013, let's see who was a strong title contender, and who wasn't.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:

:thumbup: everybody knows its a colloquialism, fastidious pedants at work.

Brundle used that phrase practically every race in relation to Alonso last year. Damon Hill also uses it.

Don't suggest "Vettel is on fire" the literal police will jump on you.



I would say it was a colloquialism, however I have noticed a number of times on PF1 the term being used as a fact as if some drivers can actually defy the laws of physics.

Some posters tend to look at the weaker team mate and say that's were the car belongs and then look at the stronger one and say he out performed it. They use a the term more as fact than merely a saying. It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in this manner.

The putting the car were it doesn't deserve I have heard many times in rallying but due to the regs there it makes sense. If someone is mixing it overall with guys a class or two above them then the car then truly the car is where it doesn't belong. Obviously they shouldn't in theory be competing against faster cars, so when a guy in a 2wd 1600 is putting up times amongst the WRCs obviously it's where it doesn't belong. F1 is a different beast, they are all the same class built to the same regs. They all have similar horsepower so there is no mixing it with the higher classes. They are where they are.

But then surely its just as easy to say that the drivers in the faster class rallycars are merely underperforming their cars?



So every entrant in a higher class just happened to under perform :lol: :lol: :lol:

So when Phillipe Bugalski in the Citreon Xsara Kit car won the Tour De Corse and Catalunya against all the WRC cars the full field of WRC guys under performed that weekend :lol: :lol:

McRae Sainz Makkinen Panizzi Burns Auriol all Just happened to have two off weekends.

So why did he win?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
So why did he win?



Because he was quickest.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So why did he win?



Because he was quickest.

He was quickest in a slower car?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:36 pm 
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OMG, the way people are going on you would think that he had announced that he ate young babies for breakfast. Actually, maybe he does, how in hell would I know :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:43 pm 
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DrG wrote:
OMG, the way people are going on you would think that he had announced that he ate young babies for breakfast. Actually, maybe he does, how in hell would I know :D

some people get bent out of shape when Vettel's name is not exalted at the drop of a hat :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:08 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
DrG wrote:
OMG, the way people are going on you would think that he had announced that he ate young babies for breakfast. Actually, maybe he does, how in hell would I know :D

some people get bent out of shape when Vettel's name is not exalted at the drop of a hat :)

No, more when it's Hamilton who is praised by someone
but what does Alonso know, compared to some real experts here :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:29 pm 
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He knows Seb didn't make any mistakes in 2011 :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:10 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
He knows Seb didn't make any mistakes in 2011 :lol:


He did not make mistakes because his car was too quick no pressure. When he was under pressure 2010 and 2012 he made many mistakes. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:14 pm 
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these two will always play this game with Seb... the fact that they tied that year they can continue to claim they are the best.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:37 pm 
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They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:21 am 
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diablof1 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
He knows Seb didn't make any mistakes in 2011 :lol:


He did not make mistakes because his car was too quick no pressure. When he was under pressure 2010 and 2012 he made many mistakes. ;)


Kinda scary though that Vettel still has so MANY years to mature...

Lessen those mistakes, and even with a car that a wee bit slower, what will happen to the championship? :uhoh: We need Hamilton in a proper car now!

I have to say though, Abu Dhabi 2010 was pure class under pressure.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:30 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:07 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


That maybe very true but it doesn't make it a fact, if Lewis was better than Seb in all areas you can bet your donkey Red Bull would've signed him up. No matter how great a product Seb is of Red Bull at the end if the day the team just wants to win races and championships.. If having Lewis in the car gives them a greater chance of that happening they'd pay the money to make it so

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:29 am 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


That maybe very true but it doesn't make it a fact, if Lewis was better than Seb in all areas you can bet your donkey Red Bull would've signed him up. No matter how great a product Seb is of Red Bull at the end if the day the team just wants to win races and championships.. If having Lewis in the car gives them a greater chance of that happening they'd pay the money to make it so


Did i say it makes it a fact? of course not, and it isn't a fact that any of the drivers are better, everything here is subjective; but some people are looking into this way too much when in reality he probably just thinks Hamilton is better, he's been saying this since the beginning of 2011 and has clarified its not a tactical agenda, he just personally thinks Hamilton is a more formidable competitor


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:05 am 
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diablof1 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
He knows Seb didn't make any mistakes in 2011 :lol:


He did not make mistakes because his car was too quick no pressure. When he was under pressure 2010 and 2012 he made many mistakes. ;)

He made plenty of mistakes. That's my point. Fernando bases his opinion on an impression (like all here) not necessarily facts. I mean he specifically pointed out that Seb made no mistakes in wet/dry races. He must not have been present in Canada eh?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:52 am 
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Yet another example of how Alonso, like Ferrari, doesn't know anything. Oh, if only he would just learn to read this forum, he would be so much better informed. He can't even praise his competitors without us learning that he just doesn't have the knowledge.
;)

I am not saying that he is never wrong, it is just funny though how many of our forumites know so much more than those in the sport... and don't allow for the possibility that THEY might not know everything.

For what it is worth, Alonso is entitle to his opinion, and if a man who has raced against Hamilton since Lewis' first race thinks Hamilton is the best, more power to him for his opinion, and more power to Lewis for how Nando sees him.

Sorry, Seb, fans, but Alonso does have a "better seat" to see the races than I do, so I am at least willing to grant that he might be right.... doesn't mean that I have to agree, but I am not going to come on here and act like I know more than he does beyond any question.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:18 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


That maybe very true but it doesn't make it a fact, if Lewis was better than Seb in all areas you can bet your donkey Red Bull would've signed him up. No matter how great a product Seb is of Red Bull at the end if the day the team just wants to win races and championships.. If having Lewis in the car gives them a greater chance of that happening they'd pay the money to make it so


Did i say it makes it a fact? of course not, and it isn't a fact that any of the drivers are better, everything here is subjective; but some people are looking into this way too much when in reality he probably just thinks Hamilton is better, he's been saying this since the beginning of 2011 and has clarified its not a tactical agenda, he just personally thinks Hamilton is a more formidable competitor


That's fine. But including the digs at Seb make Fernando come off sounding insecure and insincere. I'm going to call him on it. If he has a right to his opinion, I surely do as well...

Blake wrote:
Yet another example of how Alonso, like Ferrari, doesn't know anything. Oh, if only he would just learn to read this forum, he would be so much better informed. He can't even praise his competitors without us learning that he just doesn't have the knowledge.
;)

I am not saying that he is never wrong, it is just funny though how many of our forumites know so much more than those in the sport... and don't allow for the possibility that THEY might not know everything.

For what it is worth, Alonso is entitle to his opinion, and if a man who has raced against Hamilton since Lewis' first race thinks Hamilton is the best, more power to him for his opinion, and more power to Lewis for how Nando sees him.

Sorry, Seb, fans, but Alonso does have a "better seat" to see the races than I do, so I am at least willing to grant that he might be right.... doesn't mean that I have to agree, but I am not going to come on here and act like I know more than he does beyond any question.


Well that may apply to some, but for myself, I think it is great if he thinks Hamilton is the strongest in the field. We all have opinions and he has the right to his. But he bad mouths Seb while giving his opinion - which makes it seem as if he is lying. He pretends to add some nice words about Seb - but it is just more lies. No mistakes in all those wet races...like Canada & Turkey? More games - always games game games. Alonso's opinion is wholly untrustworthy. Hence he merits a slam dunk from those of us who listen to his nonsense and do not feel he is being honest.

Meanwhile Hamilton is great, so why would we have a problem with his opinion on that front? He could say Kimi, Seb, Lewis, Felipe, Jensen, whatever - that is his decision and I am A-okay with that. You irrationally knock others - especially, but not limited to my favs - then be ready to deal with the backlash.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:33 am 
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While I don't think his comments actually made any sense and I never trust anything he says is his personal feeling and not serving an agenda, don't get your panties in a twist about him bad mouthing Seb. He didn't. At all. It might be his intention to have his words construed that way, but he didn't actually say anything negative. He went out of his way to do the opposite. He will always leave it in a way that allows the doubts (and insecurities) in the minds of his listeners to fill in the blanks - that makes it the listener who is projecting the negative sentiments on Sebastian, and you'd have to say Kimi and JB as well given they're left out of the conversation entirely. Its a clever and easily identifiable tool out of the public communication handbook studied by all advertisers, politicians, spokespersons, public speakers.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:44 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


That maybe very true but it doesn't make it a fact, if Lewis was better than Seb in all areas you can bet your donkey Red Bull would've signed him up. No matter how great a product Seb is of Red Bull at the end if the day the team just wants to win races and championships.. If having Lewis in the car gives them a greater chance of that happening they'd pay the money to make it so


Did i say it makes it a fact? of course not, and it isn't a fact that any of the drivers are better, everything here is subjective; but some people are looking into this way too much when in reality he probably just thinks Hamilton is better, he's been saying this since the beginning of 2011 and has clarified its not a tactical agenda, he just personally thinks Hamilton is a more formidable competitor


That's fine. But including the digs at Seb make Fernando come off sounding insecure and insincere. I'm going to call him on it. If he has a right to his opinion, I surely do as well...


He didn't have any digs at Seb, in fact he praised Seb for being infallible in 2011, how can that be anything but a compliment, these so called 'digs' are non-existent as ashley has said above me and made it abundantly clear that he wasn't saying it to make people think anything and was merely putting forward his opinion that he considers Hamilton his main rival


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:01 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
While I don't think his comments actually made any sense and I never trust anything he says is his personal feeling and not serving an agenda, don't get your panties in a twist about him bad mouthing Seb. He didn't. At all. It might be his intention to have his words construed that way, but he didn't actually say anything negative. He went out of his way to do the opposite. He will always leave it in a way that allows the doubts (and insecurities) in the minds of his listeners to fill in the blanks - that makes it the listener who is projecting the negative sentiments on Sebastian, and you'd have to say Kimi and JB as well given they're left out of the conversation entirely. Its a clever and easily identifiable tool out of the public communication handbook studied by all advertisers, politicians, spokespersons, public speakers.


I respect your opinion, but I do not share it. My opinion is unchanged.

FormulaFun wrote:
He didn't have any digs at Seb, in fact he praised Seb for being infallible in 2011, how can that be anything but a compliment, these so called 'digs' are non-existent as ashley has said above me and made it abundantly clear that he wasn't saying it to make people think anything and was merely putting forward his opinion that he considers Hamilton his main rival


Well you too have every right to your opinion. We clearly will never agree on this.

If you really believe that Alonso thinks Hamilton was his main rival for the WDC last year, and will similarly be his main rival for WDC next year in the Merc - then I don't know what to tell you.

I guess I could ask you what Alonso would call the dude who actually did challenge him for the title and beat him? A negligible opponent?

It is just nonsensical to me - which is why I believe he is just onto more games.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:56 am 
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I think for some of you it might be worth going back and reading the article. Pay particular attention to the words attributed to Alonso.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:47 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
K__rr wrote:
About his opinion on drivers here's something on topic, form just few days ago.

https://twitter.com/alo_oficial/status/290834623779450880

Kubica isn't on the grid though and it's unlikely he ever will be again in a racing capacity.
Yes, actually in that twit he doesn't say Kubica is the best, he says Kubica is the driver he likes most.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:28 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
diablof1 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
He knows Seb didn't make any mistakes in 2011 :lol:


He did not make mistakes because his car was too quick no pressure. When he was under pressure 2010 and 2012 he made many mistakes. ;)

He made plenty of mistakes. That's my point. Fernando bases his opinion on an impression (like all here) not necessarily facts. I mean he specifically pointed out that Seb made no mistakes in wet/dry races. He must not have been present in Canada eh?



That wasn't a mistake. That was part of the plan. You see people don't realise that Seb and Red Bull were part of the Great Twitmarsh Button Conspiracy.

Canada, Japan etc were all just part of the greater plan.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:24 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
He didn't have any digs at Seb, in fact he praised Seb for being infallible in 2011, how can that be anything but a compliment, these so called 'digs' are non-existent as ashley has said above me and made it abundantly clear that he wasn't saying it to make people think anything and was merely putting forward his opinion that he considers Hamilton his main rival


You see, Ashley described this very situation, where fans fill in the blanks. Alonso never said that Hamilton was his main rival, only that Hamilton was the strongest driver.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:38 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


That maybe very true but it doesn't make it a fact, if Lewis was better than Seb in all areas you can bet your donkey Red Bull would've signed him up. No matter how great a product Seb is of Red Bull at the end if the day the team just wants to win races and championships.. If having Lewis in the car gives them a greater chance of that happening they'd pay the money to make it so

Disagree

Ultimately even if Hamilton is better, it makes little sense to be bringing him in at great expense as long as Vettel is still delivering everything the team requires of him. The debate will rage on over how much of it is down to the car or whatever but facts are facts. Vettel has won the past 3 world championships. It doesn't matter whether he's the better driver or not, he's clearly good enough for what Red Bull need. if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The fact that no one can really agree who is the best driver only supports the view that there is so little to choose between Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton so as long as a team has one of those three then they have someone who can deliver if given the right equipment. There is no point in spending money to replace one of them with another.

Personally I rate Hamilton higher than Vettel. But if I were in charge at RBR I would still stick with Vettel over Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Yet another example of how Alonso, like Ferrari, doesn't know anything. Oh, if only he would just learn to read this forum, he would be so much better informed. He can't even praise his competitors without us learning that he just doesn't have the knowledge.
;)

I am not saying that he is never wrong, it is just funny though how many of our forumites know so much more than those in the sport... and don't allow for the possibility that THEY might not know everything.

For what it is worth, Alonso is entitle to his opinion, and if a man who has raced against Hamilton since Lewis' first race thinks Hamilton is the best, more power to him for his opinion, and more power to Lewis for how Nando sees him.

Sorry, Seb, fans, but Alonso does have a "better seat" to see the races than I do, so I am at least willing to grant that he might be right.... doesn't mean that I have to agree, but I am not going to come on here and act like I know more than he does beyond any question.

it does come off as Seb fans get disgruntled that Alonso doesn't mention Vettel's name.....it's as if Alonso isn't entitled to his opinion,the guy has been saying the same thing since the end of the 2010 season,i don't know why it's so hard for some to accept that's how genuinely feels,they always have to put on their Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson hats to dissect everything and pass it off as "mind games".


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:41 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
They will continue to play the game. But I have to ask, why? Their praise is always accompanied by digs at Seb. They know full well when they don't mention the reigning champion who has 3 championships on the trot, any reporter worth his salt will say "what about Vettel" - so they can't make claims that he wasn't involved in their thoughts (or else they would have to admit to being stupid - as it is asked every single time).

Still, in the end, it doesn't affect Seb's overall performance. So what is the point? Perhaps they hope to affect one another. After the love fest started, both Alonso and Hamilton had their worst years in good cars (2011). And despite all the jabber jawing, Vettel continues to win.


or maybe he just thinks Hamilton is better than Seb?


That maybe very true but it doesn't make it a fact, if Lewis was better than Seb in all areas you can bet your donkey Red Bull would've signed him up. No matter how great a product Seb is of Red Bull at the end if the day the team just wants to win races and championships.. If having Lewis in the car gives them a greater chance of that happening they'd pay the money to make it so

and when did Alonso come out and say that it's a fact that Hamilton is better than Vettel?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
He didn't have any digs at Seb, in fact he praised Seb for being infallible in 2011, how can that be anything but a compliment, these so called 'digs' are non-existent as ashley has said above me and made it abundantly clear that he wasn't saying it to make people think anything and was merely putting forward his opinion that he considers Hamilton his main rival


You see, Ashley described this very situation, where fans fill in the blanks. Alonso never said that Hamilton was his main rival, only that Hamilton was the strongest driver.


bourbon19 wrote:
Well you too have every right to your opinion. We clearly will never agree on this.

If you really believe that Alonso thinks Hamilton was his main rival for the WDC last year, and will similarly be his main rival for WDC next year in the Merc - then I don't know what to tell you.

I guess I could ask you what Alonso would call the dude who actually did challenge him for the title and beat him? A negligible opponent?

It is just nonsensical to me - which is why I believe he is just onto more games.



I meant strongest driver not main rival, i know thats what i said but it was just an ill-advised way saying that he thinks Hamilton is the stronger driver of the two


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:49 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
I meant strongest driver not main rival, i know thats what i said but it was just an ill-advised way saying that he thinks Hamilton is the stronger driver of the two


I have no trouble believing that's exactly what happened. But the mind and subconscious works in weird ways, and sometimes we don't even realize that we're being manipulated until after the fact.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I meant strongest driver not main rival, i know thats what i said but it was just an ill-advised way saying that he thinks Hamilton is the stronger driver of the two


I have no trouble believing that's exactly what happened. But the mind and subconscious works in weird ways, and sometimes we don't even realize that we're being manipulated until after the fact.


well obviously he isnt going to be his main rival this year since Hamilton is in a Merc that probably wont be challenging for the title


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:43 pm 
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The funny thing about his comments = he's trying to "get to" Lewis as much as anyone else. If someone says you are their main rival, toughest opponent, best driver, whatever and you are not finishing a season anywhere near that person, or fighting for the title at the end, you have to start wondering if you're underperforming which throws you off your game, helping Fernando. If your ego allows you to cast that doubt aside then you must wonder why your team isn't giving you their best...then you decide you should leave that team. "Oh, he'll be much happier at Merc", Fernando says, when he really means "I'm happier with Lewis in a car that is unlikely to allow him to challenge me for another title". And then when Lewis gets nowhere in a hopeless Merc he still has the comfort of knowing his rival thinks he's the best, which reinforces his decision to move, and keeps him there awhile longer. Sometimes I wonder if Fernando has any formal training in psychology, because he can manipulate with the best of them (although I must say his prey is very receptive to manipulation in the first place).

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:52 pm 
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lol


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:00 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
The funny thing about his comments = he's trying to "get to" Lewis as much as anyone else. If someone says you are their main rival, toughest opponent, best driver, whatever and you are not finishing a season anywhere near that person, or fighting for the title at the end, you have to start wondering if you're underperforming which throws you off your game, helping Fernando. If your ego allows you to cast that doubt aside then you must wonder why your team isn't giving you their best...then you decide you should leave that team. "Oh, he'll be much happier at Merc", Fernando says, when he really means "I'm happier with Lewis in a car that is unlikely to allow him to challenge me for another title". And then when Lewis gets nowhere in a hopeless Merc he still has the comfort of knowing his rival thinks he's the best, which reinforces his decision to move, and keeps him there awhile longer. Sometimes I wonder if Fernando has any formal training in psychology, because he can manipulate with the best of them (although I must say his prey is very receptive to manipulation in the first place).

Funny thing is, he said it last year before Abu Dhabi GP, too and it gave Hamilton a boost & he felt very honoured about Fernandos statement. Well & he won that GP :)
Quote:
"I'm blown away Fernando is so positive towards me despite my season," Hamilton said. "It's nice to know I've got support from some drivers. Despite the relationship we've had, I think our friendship and the respect we have for one another has got a lot stronger. So it's nice to see that coming out because I've only ever said he is one of the best drivers, if not the best driver here."

Alonso had commented on Hamilton's disappointing 2011 season, saying that there were a number of factors that could have caused it but that he was still the driver he was most fearful of.


Quote:
"Hamilton did not have a super season this year, who knows whether it was due to the Pirelli tyres or the fact that with blown diffusers now driving has changed," Alonso said. "On top of that, [Jenson] Button is having a great year. All of this concurred to give the impression that his season hasn't been so good.

"But let's consider India, when he took second place in qualifying. It's like soccer: if Real Madrid or Barcelona are not performing particularly well on a given season, that does not mean that they're not top league. In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."


If his recent words give again a boost to Lewis, he can say it again& again

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:05 pm 
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That's the risk in employing that sort of tactic - you can under or overestimate your audience.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
He didn't have any digs at Seb, in fact he praised Seb for being infallible in 2011, how can that be anything but a compliment, these so called 'digs' are non-existent as ashley has said above me and made it abundantly clear that he wasn't saying it to make people think anything and was merely putting forward his opinion that he considers Hamilton his main rival


You see, Ashley described this very situation, where fans fill in the blanks. Alonso never said that Hamilton was his main rival, only that Hamilton was the strongest driver.


Oh but he was also directly quoted as saying about Vettel: "I didn't say he's not the strongest driver" Ashley tried to describe the situation, but she admitted that his comments made no sense and rather than try to make sense of them, she just ignored the nonsensical part and focused on the praise. That does not take the onus off of Alonso and her statement does not support your point either.

Others speak of language barriers (i.e., maybe Alonso doesn't understand that "strongest" is the final superlative - so what he actually meant was "strong" and there can be two or more "strong" drivers). True, but those "fans" are also "filling in the blanks" so again, Ashleys reasoning fails.

Alonso gave Seb a couple of backhanded compliments - which is not the opposite of badmouthing. Perhaps you can call it badmouthing light, but he knows what he is doing. A contradicting compliment (Hamilton is the strongest, oh - I didn't say Vettel wasn't the strongest) and false praise (he made no mistakes in the wet - except his biggest mistake from the lead and his biggest accident in F1 to date) does not serve as "praise" - sorry.

Furthermore, this is one statement. Alonso's history of negative remarks concerning Seb speaks for itself. If he was trying to turn over a new leaf, he failed.

But he isn't. He's just onto more games. You'll see.

nike2die4 wrote:
it does come off as Seb fans get disgruntled that Alonso doesn't mention Vettel's name.....it's as if Alonso isn't entitled to his opinion,the guy has been saying the same thing since the end of the 2010 season,i don't know why it's so hard for some to accept that's how genuinely feels,they always have to put on their Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson hats to dissect everything and pass it off as "mind games".


Actually, it comes off as if some are a bit desperate to see Alonso's words of praise as genuine, and that it means a lot to them that he praise their driver of choice. They feel that if Alonso is playing games with Vettel, his statements about Hamilton just might not be genuine.

I can relate, but sadly, it is all just games for Alonso. Just like Monty publicly valuing Vettel over Hamilton. Their Vettel quest might be sincere, but most of the public comments: just games games games.

Have you heard Alonso's latest sincere statement? "Massa is one of the best drivers in the world and I will support him in a title bid if necessary" :uhoh: :lol: :o If nothing else, el Nano keeps us entertained. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105186


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:47 pm 
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You didn't understand what I said. Alonso never says anything bad about Sebastian or the other title contenders. The way he phrases these little comments allows YOU, the listener, to interpret what he is saying...and he knows the nagging questions, doubts, insecurities that live within everyone, so he knows you will interpret them negatively. By never being definitive one way or another, he's letting YOU be your own bad guy. You can say his comments mean he doesn't think as much of Sebastian as he does Lewis, but his actual words don't say that, so he is the good guy. In simpler terms, its not what he says, but what he doesn't say. He lets the listener fill that vacuum with their own thoughts. If you listen to or read his comments without looking for bias or a negative contrast, you won't find it.

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