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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:19 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
RickM wrote:
I'm not too surprised that they are in trouble. There was some financial problems early last year and the only reason they were saved was due to a sponsorship deal worth a fair amount of cash.

It's odd isnt it. We've gone from having 2 Indian drivers clambering for a seat, and a team with Indian markings, to no Indian drivers and if we're not careful, no Indian team. It would make the Indian GP's efforts a bit wasted. Maybe this is why Bernie has stepped in to 'fix' things.

Would be very interesting if Di Resta was dropped. Not that anyone would really care about loosing him though.


And Bernie should step in.

Why exactly? Force India got themselves into their own mess. Teams shouldn't rely on Bernie to step in every time the going gets rough, he isn't going to be around forever. If they have ran out of money it's Mallya's responsibility to get them more, not Bernie.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Gimax wrote:
the incubus wrote:
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I've read that Maldonando brings a personal sponsorship of 20milion to Williams, is this true? If so then Force India might do a rethink on both their drivers and simply pay off Diresta's contract of 0.5 mil

If I remember correctly, I believe the correct figure was $29 million. There was an official Williams document showing the exact amount on here but Don't know where to look.

I think this may be what you meant: http://alekboyd.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/f1-contract-pdvsa-and-williams.html

Nope, that's not it. it was a picture of the actual amount on official letterhead.

Actually just found it.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:29 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Gimax wrote:
the incubus wrote:
stevey wrote:
I've read that Maldonando brings a personal sponsorship of 20milion to Williams, is this true? If so then Force India might do a rethink on both their drivers and simply pay off Diresta's contract of 0.5 mil

If I remember correctly, I believe the correct figure was $29 million. There was an official Williams document showing the exact amount on here but Don't know where to look.

I think this may be what you meant: http://alekboyd.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/f1-contract-pdvsa-and-williams.html

Nope, that's not it. it was a picture of the actual amount on official letterhead.

Actually just found it.

Image

£29million quid? That's $46million! No wonder Williams found some pace last year!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:32 pm 
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I wonder how real that is? Aren't most international transactions done in American Dollars?

And at least I wasn't going mad about the Sky sponsorship :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
I wonder how real that is? Aren't most international transactions done in American Dollars?

And at least I wasn't going mad about the Sky sponsorship :lol: :lol:

Well if you look at the link I posted you can see the text of the contract between Williams and PDVSA (albeit in Spanish) showing the amounts Williams will be getting up to and including the 2015 season under the three options.


Last edited by Gimax on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Not sure I buy that Williams invoice. Anyone could mock that up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Even it is in Pounds sterling.

Which seems odd to me as most stuff is done in American Dollars. My understanding is it's because of exchange rates fluctuating. Even when the FIA have talked budget caps it's been in Dollars.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:52 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Not sure I buy that Williams invoice. Anyone could mock that up.

Nah, it's 100% Authentic and REAL.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/02/15/maldo ... -for-2012/

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Yup, that invoice is indeed genuine. There was nice discussion thread about it here in PF1 when it was discovered.

Anyway, coming to the point. I still do not think FI are in any real trouble of not making the grid this year. There might be change in team principal position due to simple fact that Mallya might have to spend more time away from F1 gala to fix things back at home. But he wont give up ownership easily. He simply will not. Not to mention Sahara is involved. Even with all the Kingfisher trouble, Mallya has kept FI a separate entity which is not based in India in any form. And there is enough money there to not only be on the grid for 2013 but for much longer period.

Kingfisher troubles will give media a field day as far as speculations are concerned, but in the end these are two different entities with the link being Mallya. But Sahara Force India now have Subrata Roy's money. Between Him, Mallya and Mol family, these are some wealthy people with multiple robust financial sources and backing. And as I said in other thread, coupled with this and prize money that they received from FOM and has been receiving every since they made debut, I will be very surprised if they are in any real trouble of disappearing from the grid.

Kingfisher brand goes beyond airlines at the moment. And the liquor business and entire UB group as collective has had a more than decent year in 2012. How decent? Well here have a read: http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... n-ub-group

This is why I was and am still having hard time taking these rumours of FI being in trouble because of Kingfisher airlines seriously. Sure Kingfisher airlines is in deep $#!t at the moment. But that does not directly affect FI as much as some are making it out to be.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Well I have been buying (and enjoying) the Kingfisher beer, gotta do my bit to keep em going.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:15 am 
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That is an insane amount of money just for sponsorship, damn


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:24 pm 
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amirb wrote:
Well I have been buying (and enjoying) the Kingfisher beer, gotta do my bit to keep em going.

This is luls : P

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/84 ... in-no-rush
Back on topic, They now say the launch will only be for cars and no driver announcement I read. There is something definitely not right o.O, Has there been a time where cars were launched and the driver line up not unveiling them ? Hmm...
Anyhoo I think FI will definitely be on the grid in 2013 but perhaps under a different name for the V6 era ?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:48 am 
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I really don't know what to make of this.

On one hand is the information that Sahara have come to the table with a large injection of money. On the other are the persistent rumours that the team is in trouble and no driver line-up announcement, which would be understandable for a backmarker team but is a bit odd at this point for a midfield team. There's also indications that Force India are looking for pay drivers, which AFAIK they haven't done in the past, or at least not to any substantial degree.

There's the article stating they are in trouble that then disappears, which could be because they aren't or could be because Force India got it removed because they don't want that information circulating at this point (and if the newspaper didn't have solid enough sources the threat of legal action may well have encouraged them to remove it).

My understanding is that the F1 team is a separate entity to the troubled Kingfisher airlines, but that doesn't really mean much. Who wants to be running an F1 team when other things are falling apart? Given we don't know the precise structure of Mallya's various entities, it's also possible that the Force India team is a liability in one way or another. Mallya could be looking to offload it for any number of reasons.

My guess is that Force India is in some sort of trouble and they're hoping to find a solution and they're trying to conceal that fact to not have the situation spiral out of control before they've exhausted options. The last thing any organisation in trouble wants is for everyone to know they're in trouble as then everyone starts panicking and jumping ship and the chances of getting investors drops to nil.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:34 am 
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kai_ wrote:
I really don't know what to make of this.

On one hand is the information that Sahara have come to the table with a large injection of money. On the other are the persistent rumours that the team is in trouble and no driver line-up announcement, which would be understandable for a backmarker team but is a bit odd at this point for a midfield team. There's also indications that Force India are looking for pay drivers, which AFAIK they haven't done in the past, or at least not to any substantial degree.

There's the article stating they are in trouble that then disappears, which could be because they aren't or could be because Force India got it removed because they don't want that information circulating at this point (and if the newspaper didn't have solid enough sources the threat of legal action may well have encouraged them to remove it).

My understanding is that the F1 team is a separate entity to the troubled Kingfisher airlines, but that doesn't really mean much. Who wants to be running an F1 team when other things are falling apart? Given we don't know the precise structure of Mallya's various entities, it's also possible that the Force India team is a liability in one way or another. Mallya could be looking to offload it for any number of reasons.

My guess is that Force India is in some sort of trouble and they're hoping to find a solution and they're trying to conceal that fact to not have the situation spiral out of control before they've exhausted options. The last thing any organisation in trouble wants is for everyone to know they're in trouble as then everyone starts panicking and jumping ship and the chances of getting investors drops to nil.


Mallya literally has a million businesses other than the airlines and the F1 team and almost all of them are profitable. Some companies like Mahindra are interested in saving the airlines with a large cash injection but talks are still going on. At the moment it looks like he wants to offload the airlines, not offload other businesses to save the airlines.

He has a huge influence in India, not to mention he is a member of the parliament. If he wants the team to remain Indian it will remain Indian.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:52 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Even it is in Pounds sterling.

Which seems odd to me as most stuff is done in American Dollars. My understanding is it's because of exchange rates fluctuating. Even when the FIA have talked budget caps it's been in Dollars.


It's oil money, and I suspect that Chavez and Co don't want to do any exchanges in US dollars.

I've heard some strong rumors in the last few days that there's more than one Formula One team in serious financial difficulty.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:19 am 
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mcdo wrote:
greenwizard13 wrote:
Fine. Time for Jordan Mugen Honda to return then...

http://imageshack.us/a/img189/7138/jordan1e.jpg

Ok, I know it's not gonna happen but I really miss some of the old teams like Jordan, Benetton or Ligier...

Don't show that image to Eddie. He would be quite insulted, like I am.


Then by all means show it to him - he's been offending me for years, so a little dish of cold would not be out of place.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:32 am 
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sultanofhyd wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I really don't know what to make of this.

On one hand is the information that Sahara have come to the table with a large injection of money. On the other are the persistent rumours that the team is in trouble and no driver line-up announcement, which would be understandable for a backmarker team but is a bit odd at this point for a midfield team. There's also indications that Force India are looking for pay drivers, which AFAIK they haven't done in the past, or at least not to any substantial degree.

There's the article stating they are in trouble that then disappears, which could be because they aren't or could be because Force India got it removed because they don't want that information circulating at this point (and if the newspaper didn't have solid enough sources the threat of legal action may well have encouraged them to remove it).

My understanding is that the F1 team is a separate entity to the troubled Kingfisher airlines, but that doesn't really mean much. Who wants to be running an F1 team when other things are falling apart? Given we don't know the precise structure of Mallya's various entities, it's also possible that the Force India team is a liability in one way or another. Mallya could be looking to offload it for any number of reasons.

My guess is that Force India is in some sort of trouble and they're hoping to find a solution and they're trying to conceal that fact to not have the situation spiral out of control before they've exhausted options. The last thing any organisation in trouble wants is for everyone to know they're in trouble as then everyone starts panicking and jumping ship and the chances of getting investors drops to nil.


Mallya literally has a million businesses other than the airlines and the F1 team and almost all of them are profitable. Some companies like Mahindra are interested in saving the airlines with a large cash injection but talks are still going on. At the moment it looks like he wants to offload the airlines, not offload other businesses to save the airlines.

He has a huge influence in India, not to mention he is a member of the parliament. If he wants the team to remain Indian it will remain Indian.

But that is sort of my point. Mallya may not need to offload or distance himself from Force India for financial reasons, but he may want to for other reasons. His overall financial fortitude doesn't in and of itself mean that Force India is safe.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:15 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Even it is in Pounds sterling.

Which seems odd to me as most stuff is done in American Dollars. My understanding is it's because of exchange rates fluctuating. Even when the FIA have talked budget caps it's been in Dollars.


It's oil money, and I suspect that Chavez and Co don't want to do any exchanges in US dollars.

I've heard some strong rumors in the last few days that there's more than one Formula One team in serious financial difficulty.



It's not just oil money I was reading yesterday the two "International currencies" are Dollars and Euro.

As for Chavez not dealing in Dollars. PDVSA is an oil company and all oil is dealt with in Dollars. So dealing in American Dollars would be nothing new.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:35 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
greenwizard13 wrote:
Fine. Time for Jordan Mugen Honda to return then...

http://imageshack.us/a/img189/7138/jordan1e.jpg

Ok, I know it's not gonna happen but I really miss some of the old teams like Jordan, Benetton or Ligier...

Don't show that image to Eddie. He would be quite insulted, like I am.


Then by all means show it to him - he's been offending me for years, so a little dish of cold would not be out of place.

Lemme guess... his shirts and the dead squirrel on his chrome domium! LOLOL

ME TOO!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:36 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Even it is in Pounds sterling.

Which seems odd to me as most stuff is done in American Dollars. My understanding is it's because of exchange rates fluctuating. Even when the FIA have talked budget caps it's been in Dollars.


It's oil money, and I suspect that Chavez and Co don't want to do any exchanges in US dollars.

I've heard some strong rumors in the last few days that there's more than one Formula One team in serious financial difficulty.

Oh C'mon Blinky... You can't post something like that and not follow up!!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?

PLEASE share. Steelers fan to Steelers fan. LOL

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:38 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Even it is in Pounds sterling.

Which seems odd to me as most stuff is done in American Dollars. My understanding is it's because of exchange rates fluctuating. Even when the FIA have talked budget caps it's been in Dollars.


It's oil money, and I suspect that Chavez and Co don't want to do any exchanges in US dollars.

I've heard some strong rumors in the last few days that there's more than one Formula One team in serious financial difficulty.

Oh C'mon Blinky... You can't post something like that and not follow up!!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?

PLEASE share. Steelers fan to Steelers fan. LOL


I'll bite with a guess:

- Marussia
- Sauber
- Williams
- Caterham
- Force India

All of them have been rumoured to be in financial difficulty. Sauber could actually be in a fair amount of trouble. They already admitted that in 2011 they nearly didn't make it to the grid, and only did so due to the backing of Perez.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Yes but with Sauber's success last season and the attention of having Monisha the first female team principal in the history of the sport, I think they are safe. Plus Peter gave Monisha a fair stake in the company which is something I don't think he'd have done if the company was in jeopardy of taking a nose dive. As well, they hired Hulkenberg which required money on their part so they have some at their disposal. As well they placed a bit higher in 2012 than in previous years so there's money coming back from that, so in all I think Sauber is OK.

Williams gets a huge cash influx from Maldonado alone and they have branched out from simply being an F1 team and are working with car manufacturers who pay (VERY WELL) developing new technologies so they are fine.

Marrusia I suspect are in serious trouble and possibly Caterham as well but I think Force India is fine… For now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:10 am 
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Williams only made what £6m last year (profit) but a large chunk of that was money from the Concorde agreement, on the whole though i believe they are fine especially as pdvsa's cost for Maldonado rises each year as believed. Bearing in mind they have lost senna's what £8-10m but that cash will show on this years financial results. I think they are fine teams struggling i think has to be FI, marussia, Caterham and maybe if they overstretch lotus (but i think they will be fine)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:00 am 
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http://thejudge13.com/2013/01/21/force- ... r-choices/

“there are some new rumors in the Italian media, that there are some lifelines for Force India besides being (partly) sold, if they decide to use Ferrari engines in 2014, give Bianchi a seat and become a satellite team for the Scuderia, they would get the engines for a very friendly price, and with the new turbo engines costing clients up to €20 million a year, it’s a substantial financial injection.

That would give them some air, not Di Resta though,because they could combine the Bianchi/Ferrari deal with the arrival of Luiz Razia, the young Brazilian is said to bring with him a $30 million sponsor budget, if Force India could seal both deals the future looks bright again. Di Resta’s nervousness is very understandable, he could be on his way out.”


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:32 am 
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I would be very surprised if razia brought quite that much with him otherwise marussia would have gone for him over Chilton dispite chiltons connections with them money talks and razia finished higher in gp2 and according to that brings in substantially more cash.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:40 pm 
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im sure vj has stated many times the force India is a sole company not tied up with is falling company's that are debt ridden may be he will be forced to sell

may be Eddie Jordon with some backers might buy it back ?
who knows


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:42 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
RickM wrote:
Not sure I buy that Williams invoice. Anyone could mock that up.

Nah, it's 100% Authentic and REAL.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/02/15/maldo ... -for-2012/


im sure sena was not that to far off that amount as well so if they need pay drivers hes your man lol


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Gimax wrote:
the incubus wrote:
stevey wrote:
I've read that Maldonando brings a personal sponsorship of 20milion to Williams, is this true? If so then Force India might do a rethink on both their drivers and simply pay off Diresta's contract of 0.5 mil

If I remember correctly, I believe the correct figure was $29 million. There was an official Williams document showing the exact amount on here but Don't know where to look.

I think this may be what you meant: http://alekboyd.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/f1-contract-pdvsa-and-williams.html

Nope, that's not it. it was a picture of the actual amount on official letterhead.

Actually just found it.

Image

£29million quid? That's $46million! No wonder Williams found some pace last year!


its good the see frank put it to good use rather than the back pockets of the board


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Bianchi and Razia? Two rookies? Too risky.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:50 pm 
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^ Very true actually.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:28 am 
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News that some of Sahara Group's assets and directors' assets have been frozen:

http://dawn.com/2013/02/14/india-regula ... _214040268

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:46 am 
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Original post deleted. A month or two back, I had read several articles on the butchering of two Indian soldiers by Pakistan. In the article by Dawn, they claimed that the Indians had attacked first, while articles by an Indian paper claimed the opposite. I guess what I posted earlier was biased by this earlier military conflict.
Thanks, robins for pointing it out. Sorry.

Mods, please delete if inappropriate.


Last edited by BlueSharky on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:38 am 
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BlueSharky wrote:
Dawn is a Pakistani newspaper. They will do anything to discredit India. Take their words with a pinch of salt (entire bagfuls, actually).

Its a real news, what is there to discredit India :?
here is the same news from economic times
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-02-13/news/37079408_1_sirecl-sahara-group-firms-ashok-roy-choudhary


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:42 am 
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kai_ wrote:
News that some of Sahara Group's assets and directors' assets have been frozen:

http://dawn.com/2013/02/14/india-regula ... _214040268


Quote:
MUMBAI: An Indian regulator has frozen the bank accounts of two companies of the giant Sahara group after it failed to obey a court order to repay billions of dollars illegally collected from investors.

The assets of two Sahara group firms, Sahara India Real Estate Corp. and Sahara Housing Investment Corp, were also to be seized.


Sahara is a lot more than two companies and their sports sponsorship doesn't have anything to do with their Real Estate and Housing companies.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:22 am 
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robins13 wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
Dawn is a Pakistani newspaper. They will do anything to discredit India. Take their words with a pinch of salt (entire bagfuls, actually).

Its a real news, what is there to discredit India :?
here is the same news from economic times
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-02-13/news/37079408_1_sirecl-sahara-group-firms-ashok-roy-choudhary


His advice is sound. Pakistani newspapers publish fictional news when related to India and India does the same mind you. The populace of both countries don't believe their media are doing the same ^_^.
If the article is printed in Indian media as well then it is possibly very true. Now, I have a thought. I think some UAE(emirates?) flier bought out jet airways didn't they or a big stake anyways. Perhaps they will replace kingfisher as title sponsor of FI.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:37 am 
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@MAKY: The airline that bought into Jet Airways was Etihad. And they didnot buy it whole. 40-45% of the stack in the airline was sold. Its not jus the Airlines in India feeling the pinch. Its happening all over the world. Recently United Airlines and American Airlines too merged. Sahara news is true too. Again like Mallyas UB group which has many companies, Sahara too has many companies. So if 1 arm of the group is in crisis that doesnt bring the whole company down with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:13 am 
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Ah Etihad not the other one then..


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:07 am
Posts: 71
sultanofhyd wrote:
Sahara is a lot more than two companies and their sports sponsorship doesn't have anything to do with their Real Estate and Housing companies.


Corrupt Indian politics and some bought-out media that spins a story when certain businessmen don't tow in-line.

one can always speculate.. :]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:27 am 
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Posts: 530
There was an article on here that said Kingfisher was in trouble.. :lol: :lol:

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"You know the score.. Alright that's enough.. You're not going to get any points for that.."

"But Satisfaction!"

Sebastian Vettel
World Driver's Champion
2010,2011,2012.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Posts: 215
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I for one would be sad to see di Resta sidelined since that would remove from the grid the only driver ever to comfortably beat Vettel while driving the same car for the same team...

especially when both comfortably beat Kobayashi who also drove the same car for the same team at the same time

I don't get the di Resta hate, the guy has been seriously quick in a mid field team, significantly out paced only by one team mate at one track! Once!

The fact that some want to see his career ended because his personality is boring says far more about them than it does about him

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Sebastien Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for four consecutive years


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