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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Hasn't Michael always rubbished the idea of a management role? He was clearly discontent even as a consultant to Ferrari.

I don't think now is the time to start a new team for ANYONE. DM wants too much money for STR or it'd be gone already methinks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:01 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Hasn't Michael always rubbished the idea of a management role? He was clearly discontent even as a consultant to Ferrari.

I don't think now is the time to start a new team for ANYONE. DM wants too much money for STR or it'd be gone already methinks.

i honestly believe the reason he always rubbishes management was un his head and believed in his heart he always thought he had more to give competitively,i believe that's why he was so discontent as a consultant. Now maybe he has accepted that he doesn't unless he goes to some varied form of competitive racing, the thing with that is he is a competitor and wants to slug it with the best if you cant get that buzz driving maybe just maybe he now accepts the idea and could get that competitiveness and a owner/ principle role, lets face it he has a lot of experience and knowledge of cars and motorsport that could be great to a young team and young drivers.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:22 am 
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Gives a new meaning to 'keeping the Woolf from the door' doesn't it?
I bet their test driver is bricking it too

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:10 am 
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After reading This i am coming to think that Merc are setting themselves to fail, and that will mainly due to Lauda's aggressive approach in using his "authority" which IMHO he is not qualified enough to do. also if what is written is true then i have no doubt Brawn will walk.

There is a difference between an engineer being a team head, a manager being a team head and a driver being a team head!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:44 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
After reading This i am coming to think that Merc are setting themselves to fail, and that will mainly due to Lauda's aggressive approach in using his "authority" which IMHO he is not qualified enough to do. also if what is written is true then i have no doubt Brawn will walk.

There is a difference between an engineer being a team head, a manager being a team head and a driver being a team head!

Brawn was not exactly a success as a TP,bar the 1 win his team has gotten much worse each year,last year is even worse because they started with a good car that could compete with the leaders only to drop off so dramatically more than any other team on the grid.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:24 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
After reading This i am coming to think that Merc are setting themselves to fail, and that will mainly due to Lauda's aggressive approach in using his "authority" which IMHO he is not qualified enough to do. also if what is written is true then i have no doubt Brawn will walk.

There is a difference between an engineer being a team head, a manager being a team head and a driver being a team head!

Brawn was not exactly a success as a TP,bar the 1 win his team has gotten much worse each year,last year is even worse because they started with a good car that could compete with the leaders only to drop off so dramatically more than any other team on the grid.

The thing about questioning whether Ross Brawn has been successful as a Team Principal in Mercedes brings up the fact that he was extremely successful as the TP of Brawn GP before Mercedes bought them out. This then brings up the question of whether Brawn GP were so successful because of Ross Brawn or whether they were successful because of the fact that Honda had spent so much money on the team beforehand & Brawn GP got the benefit etc etc etc.... get my meaning? Having been a fan of Ross Brawn for many years I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly lost his way, & so badly ... not impossible but I just don't think that is likely. What none of us know is how much interference Mercedes management has had in the team since they bought Brawn GP & whether that was good or bad. That's from someone that has been involved in companies that were successful until they were bought out & someone interfered because they thought they knew better. And, the thing is, if they are above you in the management hierachy, you can't usually complain that they are a fuckw!t & don't know what they are doing. Just saying...


Last edited by DrG on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:28 pm 
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The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:41 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
After reading This i am coming to think that Merc are setting themselves to fail, and that will mainly due to Lauda's aggressive approach in using his "authority" which IMHO he is not qualified enough to do. also if what is written is true then i have no doubt Brawn will walk.

There is a difference between an engineer being a team head, a manager being a team head and a driver being a team head!

Brawn was not exactly a success as a TP,bar the 1 win his team has gotten much worse each year,last year is even worse because they started with a good car that could compete with the leaders only to drop off so dramatically more than any other team on the grid.


I would say he is one of the most successful TPs on the grid, he had a wdc a wcc and a race win. And that is not counting his Ferrari success as he was not a TP back then but was still responsible for their success


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:48 pm 
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DrG wrote:
The thing about questioning whether Ross Brawn has been successful as a Team Principal in Mercedes brings up the fact that he was extremely successful as the TP of Brawn GP before Mercedes bought them out. This then brings up the question of whether Brawn GP were so successful or whether they were successful because of the fact that Honda had spent so much money on the team beforehand & Brawn GP got the benefit etc etc etc.... get my meaning? Having been a fan of Ross Brawn for many years I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly lost his way, & so badly ... not impossible but I just don't think that is likely. What none of us know is how much interference Mercedes management has had in the team since they bought Brawn GP & whether that was good or bad. Just saying... having been involved in companies that were successful until they were bought out & someone interfered because they thought they knew better.



Extremely successful?

Is one year of wins. Partly down to Honda employing ex-Augri Suzuki guys and a huge development Budget Extremely successful?

2009 was the exception rather than the rule as his time as TP and that was down to a number of circumstances inc but not only the Rule changes the DD Hondas and development budget.

Brawn as TP (From '08)
9 wins.
22 podiums.

Constructors 9th, 1st, 4th, 4th, 5th

"Twitmarsh" TP from '09)
20 wins
51 podiums
constructors. 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd

Domenicalli (TP from '08)
18 wins.
46 podiums.
constructors. 1st, 4th, 3rd, 3rd 2nd.


Horners stats obviously speak for themselves. Out of those four. If you were asked to pick on stats with no names no reputations. Who would you NOT go for?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
DrG wrote:
The thing about questioning whether Ross Brawn has been successful as a Team Principal in Mercedes brings up the fact that he was extremely successful as the TP of Brawn GP before Mercedes bought them out. This then brings up the question of whether Brawn GP were so successful or whether they were successful because of the fact that Honda had spent so much money on the team beforehand & Brawn GP got the benefit etc etc etc.... get my meaning? Having been a fan of Ross Brawn for many years I find it hard to believe that he has suddenly lost his way, & so badly ... not impossible but I just don't think that is likely. What none of us know is how much interference Mercedes management has had in the team since they bought Brawn GP & whether that was good or bad. Just saying... having been involved in companies that were successful until they were bought out & someone interfered because they thought they knew better.



Extremely successful?

Is one year of wins. Partly down to Honda employing ex-Augri Suzuki guys and a huge development Budget Extremely successful?

2009 was the exception rather than the rule as his time as TP and that was down to a number of circumstances inc but not only the Rule changes the DD Hondas and development budget.

Brawn as TP (From '08)
9 wins.
22 podiums.

Constructors 9th, 1st, 4th, 4th, 5th

"Twitmarsh" TP from '09)
20 wins
51 podiums
constructors. 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd

Domenicalli (TP from '08)
18 wins.
46 podiums.
constructors. 1st, 4th, 3rd, 3rd 2nd.


Horners stats obviously speak for themselves. Out of those four. If you were asked to pick on stats with no names no reputations. Who would you NOT go for?

Yes, but nor McLaren nor Ferrari nor Red Bull were in the edge of completely missing the Championship. Brawn GP, in order to race in 2009, was forced to dramatically cut operation costs and nearly stopped developing. Then they were bought by Mercedes but still under a very limited structure and that's it. Red Bull required about six years of CONTINUOUS developing to get where they are. Mercedes hasn't had any continuity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:00 pm 
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smlbstcbr wrote:
Yes, but nor McLaren nor Ferrari nor Red Bull were in the edge of completely missing the Championship. Brawn GP, in order to race in 2009, was forced to dramatically cut operation costs and nearly stopped developing. Then they were bought by Mercedes but still under a very limited structure and that's it. Red Bull required about six years of CONTINUOUS developing to get where they are. Mercedes hasn't had any continuity.



Merc has had continuity. They started the '10 car in '09. Button was involved in the development of the MGP-W01. The team never shut it's doors it has merely migrated from one owner to the next.

Brawn stopped developing but by that stage they had already built up the points advantage gained by getting the jump using the huge development that went into the car. Honda were using two wind tunnels and supposedly designed three cars to get the BGP-01. Winning the Championship one year with what is supposed to have been the most expensive and most developed car in F1 to me does not equal extremely successful.

Red Bull didn't get 6 years of continuous developing either. With the Rules Re-write for '09 everyone started off with the blank sheet of paper.

In fact that is a dead argument if you look continuous development you could say Red Bulls development goes back to 1997. Merc goes back to the 60's. Where do you draw the line?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:17 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Where do you draw the line?

Just above "Disclaimer".

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:48 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
After reading This i am coming to think that Merc are setting themselves to fail, and that will mainly due to Lauda's aggressive approach in using his "authority" which IMHO he is not qualified enough to do. also if what is written is true then i have no doubt Brawn will walk.

There is a difference between an engineer being a team head, a manager being a team head and a driver being a team head!

Brawn was not exactly a success as a TP,bar the 1 win his team has gotten much worse each year,last year is even worse because they started with a good car that could compete with the leaders only to drop off so dramatically more than any other team on the grid.


I would say he is one of the most successful TPs on the grid, he had a wdc a wcc and a race win. And that is not counting his Ferrari success as he was not a TP back then but was still responsible for their success

okay so he won the title in 2009,what has he really done since not having that Honda money and the headstart he had? Witmarsh gets alot of stick but imo Witmarsh is a better TP.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

we don't even know what he knows.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:54 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

we don't even know what he knows.


He might have even been sold on a "don't worry, we'll sack off Brawn and Fry..." deal. Whatever the case, I'm all over this story like knockers in a wind tunnel.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:57 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

we don't even know what he knows.


I'd be pretty sure that Hamilton was attracted to the Merc team by Brawn and Haug (and Rosberg?) directly - having dealt with Haug for some time. I mean, it's all well and good thinking he was taking on a challenge but he must have asked serious questions - like 'are you gonna give me a semi decent car, etc'? I can't imagine he would risk such a lot on the word of a complete stranger over someone he knew well like Rosberg and Haug? On that basis, if Haug and Brawn are history - he could be feeling a bit sheepish! (I just hope he has helluva clean get-out clauses and pay-off clauses for Merc failing to deliver!)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:59 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

we don't even know what he knows.


He might have even been sold on a "don't worry, we'll sack off Brawn and Fry..." deal. Whatever the case, I'm all over this story like knockers in a wind tunnel.

exactly,no one knows,am sure Wolff buying shares was not something that was thought up in a moment or a matter of a few months,i mean Hamilton has been talking to Mercedes since december 2011 and he is only a driver....Hamilton and Lowe are really close,of course i don't think Lowe left because of Hamilton but am sure Hamilton must have been talking to him alot about it,i don't believe Hamilton when he says he didn't know anything about it,he always says that about everything lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

we don't even know what he knows.


I'd be pretty sure that Hamilton was attracted to the Merc team by Brawn and Haug (and Rosberg?) directly - having dealt with Haug for some time. I mean, it's all well and good thinking he was taking on a challenge but he must have asked serious questions - like 'are you gonna give me a semi decent car, etc'? I can't imagine he would risk such a lot on the word of a complete stranger over someone he knew well like Rosberg and Haug? On that basis, if Haug and Brawn are history - he could be feeling a bit sheepish! (I just hope he has helluva clean get-out clauses and pay-off clauses for Merc failing to deliver!)

isn't it Lauda that got him to Mercedes? how do we know that Lauda hadn't already hinted at changes in the paddock to him?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:05 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
exactly,no one knows,am sure Wolff buying shares was not something that was thought up in a moment or a matter of a few months,i mean Hamilton has been talking to Mercedes since december 2011 and he is only a driver....Hamilton and Lowe are really close,of course i don't think Lowe left because of Hamilton but am sure Hamilton must have been talking to him alot about it,i don't believe Hamilton when he says he didn't know anything about it,he always says that about everything lol.



From what I have read neither Lauda Nor Wolff bought their shares and if Wolff is to believed the deal has only taken weeks to complete.

Remember to the Lowe story starts with him going to Williams. So if Lewis was aware of the move when he signed the time lines and rumours suggest he would have known about a Williams move not a Merc one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:12 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
FringeUK wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.

we don't even know what he knows.


I'd be pretty sure that Hamilton was attracted to the Merc team by Brawn and Haug (and Rosberg?) directly - having dealt with Haug for some time. I mean, it's all well and good thinking he was taking on a challenge but he must have asked serious questions - like 'are you gonna give me a semi decent car, etc'? I can't imagine he would risk such a lot on the word of a complete stranger over someone he knew well like Rosberg and Haug? On that basis, if Haug and Brawn are history - he could be feeling a bit sheepish! (I just hope he has helluva clean get-out clauses and pay-off clauses for Merc failing to deliver!)

isn't it Lauda that got him to Mercedes? how do we know that Lauda hadn't already hinted at changes in the paddock to him?

perhaps, but I don't imagine LH would have had a great deal of 'friendly' contact with Lauda? Think of it this way, if you are offered a position with another company, better pay, etc - and you know someone quite well in that company, wouldn't you be asking them lots of questions in LH's position?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:24 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
The way Lauda has come into the Merc fold is awfully reminiscent of how he entered the Jaguar fold back in the day. Lots of high profile names being dropped, new names coming in from big teams, lots of instability within the entire structure as a result of too many new faces at once trying to find their feet, then there was the power vacuum. The end result was not many results for Jaguar. It's easy to see why people are fearing this already.

Hamilton must be nervous now. He was expecting it to be a Brawn/Haug/Hamilton super team. Now it's a Wolff/Lauda/Brawn for now possibly Lowe for later/Hamilton super team. One was stable, the other is not.


Ain't it a bit premature to call one stable and the other not? How do we know either way right now? Lets wait and see how things pan out, Lowe in Brawn out could be the best thing for the stability of the team long term

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:35 pm 
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The media all asks "but what will Lewis think?!" and nobody wonders what Nico's thoughts are. Thats why Nico is Nico.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Lewis is new to the team and persumably was pursuaded there by promises by these key figures which are now being sacked.

Nico has been there from the start and while this shuffle does affect him, he has not been led off as some think Hamilton has


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
smlbstcbr wrote:
Yes, but nor McLaren nor Ferrari nor Red Bull were in the edge of completely missing the Championship. Brawn GP, in order to race in 2009, was forced to dramatically cut operation costs and nearly stopped developing. Then they were bought by Mercedes but still under a very limited structure and that's it. Red Bull required about six years of CONTINUOUS developing to get where they are. Mercedes hasn't had any continuity.



Merc has had continuity. They started the '10 car in '09. Button was involved in the development of the MGP-W01. The team never shut it's doors it has merely migrated from one owner to the next.

Brawn stopped developing but by that stage they had already built up the points advantage gained by getting the jump using the huge development that went into the car. Honda were using two wind tunnels and supposedly designed three cars to get the BGP-01. Winning the Championship one year with what is supposed to have been the most expensive and most developed car in F1 to me does not equal extremely successful.

Red Bull didn't get 6 years of continuous developing either. With the Rules Re-write for '09 everyone started off with the blank sheet of paper.

In fact that is a dead argument if you look continuous development you could say Red Bulls development goes back to 1997. Merc goes back to the 60's. Where do you draw the line?

Brawn had to let go his designer: Zander left because Brawn couldn't afford him. Red Bull had a consisting developing team during the transition of 2009 as well as McLaren and Ferrari. Curiously, the FiA banned the DDD, which was not integrated in Red Bull or McLaren or Ferrari. Sooooo... essentially to let go Zander was actually cutting development and seeking a new design philosophy. Unlike Red Bull or Ferrari or McLaren, virtually, they didn't had any certainty for 2010 season until Mercedes bought the team in NOVEMBER. Brawn was virtually a HRT in terms of funding at the end of 2009. Add that to the RRA and no in-season testing and you got what you saw last year: a major restructuring from a salvaged ship. Obviously, changing heads and directors in strategical team areas during these three years is a lack of continuity.


Last edited by smlbstcbr on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:09 pm 
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@johnston

I can make excuses for Mercedes not havIng the continuity or the budget of the guys you are comparing to, and you should know that but lets leave that aside and let me ask you this
Pich your TP: wolf, lauda or Brawn?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:16 pm 
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TP matters much less than the infrastructure above and below him/her. You need a technical lead who is capable of selecting his own department heads and then working effectively with them. The TP only needs to be able to GET those people for you, and keep the money coming from above. Whoever is above must be understanding enough to believe in those below, and champion their cause. No matter where on the ladder you put them, those three guys are unlikely to be willing to play those parts.

Wolff is a business man, and the business man is always fighting the technical lead because he always wants too much money. Lauda is only good at talking. Brawn is too removed from the business perspective and its consequences, and has already proven that he chose a team of department heads that either can't work well enough together, or can't work well enough with the money they have. IMO not only are there now too many cooks in the Merc kitchen, they're also all the wrong kind of cooks.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:27 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
@johnston

I can make excuses for Mercedes not havIng the continuity or the budget of the guys you are comparing to, and you should know that but lets leave that aside and let me ask you this
Pich your TP: wolf, lauda or Brawn?



Non of the above ;)

But at a pinch if no other candidates. Wolff.

Lauda is a mouth piece and already proved at Jag he hasn't a bean at management level.

Brawn IMO is in over his head at TP level and his so called genius is no longer applicable to F1.

Wolff unknown worth a gamble at least .

smlbstcbr wrote:
Brawn had to let go his designer: Zander left because Brawn couldn't afford him. Red Bull had a consisting developing team during the transition of 2009 as well as McLaren and Ferrari. Curiously, the FiA banned the DDD, which was not integrated in Red Bull or McLaren or Ferrari. Sooooo... essentially to let go Zander was actually cutting development and seeking a new design philosophy. Unlike Red Bull or Ferrari or McLaren, virtually, they didn't had any certainty for 2010 season until Mercedes bought the team in NOVEMBER. Brawn was virtually a HRT in terms of funding at the end of 2009. Add that to the RRA and no in-season testing and you got what you saw last year: a major restructuring from a salvaged ship. Obviously, changing heads and directors in strategical team areas during this three years is a lack of continuity.


The were still continuously ran And since '09 they have had 3 full seasons to go backwards.

Regardless of Merc not buying until November they were still carrying on with the following years plans just like every other team.

Even if you allow for the '09 to '10 swap over if he is so brilliant how come Merc have been going backwards since '10 not forwards?

Teams lose key members all the time and live to see another day. If Macca lose Paddy lowe will they suddenly end up a mid Field team? Take a look at Renault, now Lotus at who they lost. Pretty big changes there also especially after crashgate yet Boullier has managed to improve the team. A man with NO F1 experience is doing a better job on a smaller budget.

If Ross Brawn is the be all and end all some say he is. How come in the three years of Merc, with the budget they have went backwards? No improvement? surely with three years a true top flight TP would start to see improvement?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:39 pm 
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smlbstcbr wrote:
Johnston wrote:
smlbstcbr wrote:
Yes, but nor McLaren nor Ferrari nor Red Bull were in the edge of completely missing the Championship. Brawn GP, in order to race in 2009, was forced to dramatically cut operation costs and nearly stopped developing. Then they were bought by Mercedes but still under a very limited structure and that's it. Red Bull required about six years of CONTINUOUS developing to get where they are. Mercedes hasn't had any continuity.



Merc has had continuity. They started the '10 car in '09. Button was involved in the development of the MGP-W01. The team never shut it's doors it has merely migrated from one owner to the next.

Brawn stopped developing but by that stage they had already built up the points advantage gained by getting the jump using the huge development that went into the car. Honda were using two wind tunnels and supposedly designed three cars to get the BGP-01. Winning the Championship one year with what is supposed to have been the most expensive and most developed car in F1 to me does not equal extremely successful.

Red Bull didn't get 6 years of continuous developing either. With the Rules Re-write for '09 everyone started off with the blank sheet of paper.

In fact that is a dead argument if you look continuous development you could say Red Bulls development goes back to 1997. Merc goes back to the 60's. Where do you draw the line?

Brawn had to let go his designer: Zander left because Brawn couldn't afford him. Red Bull had a consisting developing team during the transition of 2009 as well as McLaren and Ferrari. Curiously, the FiA banned the DDD, which was not integrated in Red Bull or McLaren or Ferrari. Sooooo... essentially to let go Zander was actually cutting development and seeking a new design philosophy. Unlike Red Bull or Ferrari or McLaren, virtually, they didn't had any certainty for 2010 season until Mercedes bought the team in NOVEMBER. Brawn was virtually a HRT in terms of funding at the end of 2009. Add that to the RRA and no in-season testing and you got what you saw last year: a major restructuring from a salvaged ship. Obviously, changing heads and directors in strategical team areas during this three years is a lack of continuity.

OK, but Brawn wasn't any better after 2010. Mercedes scored less points every season since 2010.
2010: 214
2011: 165
2012: 142

What are his excuses for 2011 and 2012? Rulebook is wrong? He can't manage team without in-season testing and RRA? What should FIA do to help our superb team principal?

Or maybe Ross Brawn should try harder, because he has major manufacture support and rules are the same for everyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Oh boy... Soooo many armchair experts in here, I'm surprised none of you are at the helm of your very own Multi-Million Dollar F1 Team.

I'll break it down as follows…

Lauda: A has been for longer than any current has beens have been has beens, and someone who's every word seems to be of all-knowing arrogant descent with an all worldly knowledge about how to screw the pooch! NOTHING he's done since retiring as a driver. His successes as a driver with cojones the size of The Tock of Gibraltar have no significance in determining how good he was/is on the other side of the wall. What should determine that is the track record he's amassed as such which has proven to be quite Unsuccessful, so IDKWTF Mercedes Benz think they have to gain by listening to an old geezer who hasn't the slightest of clues as to how to do anything other than drive once upon a time.

Wolff: A pencil pusher who has accomplished Jack Diddly squat in the "sport" of F1 other than receive a butloads of money and esteemed executive positions as well as shares, of which I will once again point out, have garnered jack fairy cakes in the way of success. Keep in mind this is a sport where results on Sundays is what it all boils down to.

Brawn: Hmmm... a cabinet full of WC Titles, one of the greatest strategists in the history of the whole of F1, a great team motivator, an excellent engineer, and a downright wonderful guy with a passion to be the best and who's drivers total more wins and more podiums than most other TP in the history of the sport. Let me just go out on a limb without verifying numbers…

WINS: 91+11+9+2+4+…
Podiums: 155++++…

Hhhmmm... I wonder who I'd go with 100 times out of 100?


I think Ross will see their big fat zero and raise them just a shitload. Sadly though, the current movement of F1 is just that Movement. Too often I hear out with the old and in with the new when the new isn't necessarily better. Take Adrian Newey's current status of unearthly deity in all things Aero, design and rules circumvention… Until 2009 you seldom heard mention of him. Yes his name came up from time to time but it was never to the level it is today which all started in 2009 when the Red bull team started to FINALLY turn it around. Before then Adrian's cars outside of one were somewhat lackluster. Then Red Bull started winning and suddenly he's the greatest guy in F1… EVER.

F1 is such that NO TEAM can endure being at the very top forever because the fact is that EVERY TEAM employs an ARMY of some of the greatest and most innovative engineers and craftsmen on the planet and it's only a matter of time before someone else comes up with the best package and the previous top dog is knocked off their perch. And just because you dominated for a bit doesn't mean it's any easier to get back their because F1 being an ever evolving entity, EVERYONE is working mighty hard to improve. And today, less than 1.5 seconds generally separates the top 12 or so positions which is literally almost nothing and that's what makes winning so difficult for anyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:13 pm 
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the incubus wrote:

Brawn: Hmmm... a cabinet full of WC Titles, one of the greatest strategists in the history of the whole of F1, a great team motivator, an excellent engineer, and a downright wonderful guy with a passion to be the best and who's drivers total more wins and more podiums than most other TP in the history of the sport. Let me just go out on a limb without verifying numbers…

WINS: 91+11+9+2+4+…
Podiums: 155++++…

Hhhmmm... I wonder who I'd go with 100 times out of 100?




Talking about armchair experts...

You are plain wrong and misleading. Ross was there with Bentton and Ferrari, but he was Technical Director, not Team Principal. His TP adventure began in 2007 or 8. Stop making up facts.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Toto owns a hair under half of HWA too...they're pretty successful, builds all of the Merc DTM cars, has factory support, etc. He's not in a management role there, but you'd think with half the team he'd be calling some shots.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:34 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
the incubus wrote:

Brawn: Hmmm... a cabinet full of WC Titles, one of the greatest strategists in the history of the whole of F1, a great team motivator, an excellent engineer, and a downright wonderful guy with a passion to be the best and who's drivers total more wins and more podiums than most other TP in the history of the sport. Let me just go out on a limb without verifying numbers…

WINS: 91+11+9+2+4+…
Podiums: 155++++…

Hhhmmm... I wonder who I'd go with 100 times out of 100?




Talking about armchair experts...

You are plain wrong and misleading. Ross was there with Bentton and Ferrari, but he was Technical Director, not Team Principal. His TP adventure began in 2007 or 8. Stop making up facts.

He is currently a Team Principal is he not? Just because he wasn't TP when drivers on teams he helped lead to wins doesn't mean those successes weren't greatly thanks to his contribution to the team. As well, might want to check that bit I highlighted in bold as I am well aware of what positions he's held throughout his entire career. Bottom line is that Brawn's track record is that of a winner. The others, not so much. Lauda, post driving career of course.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:37 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
the incubus wrote:

Brawn: Hmmm... a cabinet full of WC Titles, one of the greatest strategists in the history of the whole of F1, a great team motivator, an excellent engineer, and a downright wonderful guy with a passion to be the best and who's drivers total more wins and more podiums than most other TP in the history of the sport. Let me just go out on a limb without verifying numbers…

WINS: 91+11+9+2+4+…
Podiums: 155++++…

Hhhmmm... I wonder who I'd go with 100 times out of 100?




Talking about armchair experts...

You are plain wrong and misleading. Ross was there with Bentton and Ferrari, but he was Technical Director, not Team Principal. His TP adventure began in 2007 or 8. Stop making up facts.



:thumbup:

Giving Brawn the credit for all of Schuis wins etc is discrediting Flavio and Todt who were in charge and of course Byrne who was designing the cars. Not forgetting Schui too.

Brawn was never a TP until '08 when he went to Honda.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:39 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Toto owns a hair under half of HWA too...they're pretty successful, builds all of the Merc DTM cars, has factory support, etc. He's not in a management role there, but you'd think with half the team he'd be calling some shots.

As history suggests, F1 is F1 and nothing compares. DTM is a fantastic racing series but Drivers and personnel who don't make it in F1 go to DTM and the like to try and succeed. Too often those who've experienced success in other series try their hand at the big times and more often than not results are less than desirable. Until I see at least something of significance in F1 from Wolff, I will not simply accept he "is" a better option over Brawn just because some journalists write it. I have my own 2 eyes and a wealth of memories I can revisit with my eyes closed that tell me what's what and that's what I will go by.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
the incubus wrote:

Brawn: Hmmm... a cabinet full of WC Titles, one of the greatest strategists in the history of the whole of F1, a great team motivator, an excellent engineer, and a downright wonderful guy with a passion to be the best and who's drivers total more wins and more podiums than most other TP in the history of the sport. Let me just go out on a limb without verifying numbers…

WINS: 91+11+9+2+4+…
Podiums: 155++++…

Hhhmmm... I wonder who I'd go with 100 times out of 100?




Talking about armchair experts...

You are plain wrong and misleading. Ross was there with Bentton and Ferrari, but he was Technical Director, not Team Principal. His TP adventure began in 2007 or 8. Stop making up facts.



:thumbup:

Giving Brawn the credit for all of Schuis wins etc is discrediting Flavio and Todt who were in charge and of course Byrne who was designing the cars. Not forgetting Schui too.

Brawn was never a TP until '08 when he went to Honda.

At no point did I discredit anyone else. Brawn was a great part of their successes and any one of those men would say so, but nice try. :town:

And FYI Rory Byrne and Todt get ALL the credit they are due whenever Schumacher and Brawn are spoken of. Flavio on the other hand is no just a cheater and it's sad that his gift of gab and managerial prowess are rarely spoken of. The man may have done some questionable and downright wrong things, but he knew how to run a team which boiled down to knowing how to recognize, hire and manage talent.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:51 pm 
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markybarky wrote:
Unfortunately there is no sentiment in business Mercedes are in the business's of making cars to sell and f1 is a vehicle to sell lots of cars and while Ross Brawn is a fantastic guy who helped Schumacher to all those titles and won with Brawn GP he hasn't delivered the expected results at Mercedes GP. They want to win and they are going to try it their way this time like any business if its not working either pull out and count your losses or remodel the way it works and change personnel who may bring a different perspective to make Mercedes GP a great team. I personally think Lewis Hamilton has come in and changed the way Mercedes have been running their team and the board in Stuttgart know they have a winner who will propel the silver arrows to the front and raise their profile in the media( which in turn will help sell cars). There's a revolution and Lewis Hamilton is in the drivers seat.


Most sensible and correct post in this thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:51 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Toto owns a hair under half of HWA too...they're pretty successful, builds all of the Merc DTM cars, has factory support, etc. He's not in a management role there, but you'd think with half the team he'd be calling some shots.

As history suggests, F1 is F1 and nothing compares. DTM is a fantastic racing series but Drivers and personnel who don't make it in F1 go to DTM and the like to try and succeed. Too often those who've experienced success in other series try their hand at the big times and more often than not results are less than desirable. Until I see at least something of significance in F1 from Wolff, I will not simply accept he "is" a better option over Brawn just because some journalists write it. I have my own 2 eyes and a wealth of memories I can revisit with my eyes closed that tell me what's what and that's what I will go by.

Driving, engineering, designing...are all fields where F1 is a different ball game. Management is management. If you are talented at it, it applies to all kinds of things.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:06 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
the incubus wrote:

Brawn: Hmmm... a cabinet full of WC Titles, one of the greatest strategists in the history of the whole of F1, a great team motivator, an excellent engineer, and a downright wonderful guy with a passion to be the best and who's drivers total more wins and more podiums than most other TP in the history of the sport. Let me just go out on a limb without verifying numbers…

WINS: 91+11+9+2+4+…
Podiums: 155++++…

Hhhmmm... I wonder who I'd go with 100 times out of 100?




Talking about armchair experts...

You are plain wrong and misleading. Ross was there with Bentton and Ferrari, but he was Technical Director, not Team Principal. His TP adventure began in 2007 or 8. Stop making up facts.

He is currently a Team Principal is he not? Just because he wasn't TP when drivers on teams he helped lead to wins doesn't mean those successes weren't greatly thanks to his contribution to the team. As well, might want to check that bit I highlighted in bold as I am well aware of what positions he's held throughout his entire career. Bottom line is that Brawn's track record is that of a winner. The others, not so much. Lauda, post driving career of course.

I still don't know how that makes him great TP. Ross was essential part of all Schumacher wins (along with Todt/Biatore, Bryne, Schumacher) but he was responsibilities were much more narrow than now and maybe Brawn can't cope with additional responsibilities. Each team operates differently, but last time I checked, since 2011 mr Bob Bell was technical director at Mercedes. I don't how it's going to be this season, but last season Brawn shared TP role with Fry. Where Fry as a CEO was focused more on corporate affairs and Brawn on sporting/technical side. At Ferrari his role was purely technical, where Todt made all final calls when needed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:07 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
At no point did I discredit anyone else. Brawn was a great part of their successes and any one of those men would say so, but nice try. :town:

And FYI Rory Byrne and Todt get ALL the credit they are due whenever Schumacher and Brawn are spoken of. Flavio on the other hand is no just a cheater and it's sad that his gift of gab and managerial prowess are rarely spoken of. The man may have done some questionable and downright wrong things, but he knew how to run a team which boiled down to knowing how to recognize, hire and manage talent.



Brawn was a smaller part of the cog. He wasn't a team principle. He's now in a different job. you can't give him the '91 wins of Schui and say thats what makes him great. In all those wins there were people higher up the food chain. He wasn't the one pulling the chains. His history as a TP and reputation as one starts in '08. Not '92. Before that he was just a technical director. also a lot of the rules that made him "great" in his hay day have changed.

If you want to give him credit for any win he has been involved in you might as well add the Williams ones in there too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:22 pm 
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What you are missing is that people aren't just given the position of team principal just for the hell of it. Ross began as a rather talented machinist who was also an engineer and as his experience grew, so did his roles and positions within teams, leading him all the way up to Team Principal, finally. And a rather successful first year with a car and team he had a hand in creating and developing. Go back to all the TP's in the history of the sport and you will see that the most successful ones, also experienced less than desirable seasons, some for seasons on end before experiencing their first taste of success. The really long tenured ones experience many more years of obscurity before once again experiencing success. look at Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Todt himself, Flavio, etc.. All of them are considered greats but their track records excluding Todt experienced success for only a short period of time before going back to not winning, but all were given the chance to work their issues out and once again become winners.

Ross more than most deserves equally such a chance and I think Hamilton is looking forward to working with him and if that doesn't happen I don't think Lewis will be very happy. Unless of course, on the off chance Mercedes produce a superb car and Lewis can win regardless of who is team principal and his engineer.

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