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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:56 am 
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Ev0lutionz wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
I don't see this as a good move for both teams. Mclaren would be letting go of the man responsible for the fastest car in 2012 and Mercedes would be now up to their 3rd ( i think) tech director which would only cause conflicted opinions.

Merc under the Brawn guidance should have the roles sorted out and can maybe avoid the problem, while Mclaren. Ould have the next Adrian Newey ready to take over. Who knows!



Is he responsible for Lewis's mechanical problems too? Who is the head of engineering at Macca?


Tom Goss, Neil Oatley is also the head of design and development.

All 3 of them are responsible for Mclaren's woes last year either through aggressive design or weak troubleshooting and problem solving.

All 3 of them are also responsible on how fast the car was too


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:02 am 
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I've also heard that Lauda has approached Bernie to become GM of Merc, with Adam Parr as CEO. Mercedes really do seem to be recruiting, as someone else said, like Real Madrid in the 'Galaticos' era.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:07 am 
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All these big wages. Gonna put a big dent in the budget.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:11 am 
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seriously, how many big wigs do Mercedes need?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:13 am 
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to come with all these acquisitions I expect a fairly large scale clear out of some of the old staff

Looking at it from a different point of view, I think Mercedes like McLaren will run 2 design teams - maybe alternate which year each does what.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:13 am 
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Balibari wrote:
What the hell is going on at Merc? Since I became baffled as to why they have so many senior designers and engineers they've employed about three more!

At this rate, if they do manage to lure Adrian Newey away from Red Bull the only position left will be tea boy. Let's see how his implements his flexiwing and blown diffuser expertise at extracting the most flavour from a bag of PG Tips.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:19 am 
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Maybe each will be assigned a section of the car. One does the rear wing, one the front, a side pod each, someone takes the diffuser :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:27 am 
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Maybe they tried to get Newie couldn't and thought whos the next best thing..... just get everybody else.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:58 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Maybe each will be assigned a section of the car. One does the rear wing, one the front, a side pod each, someone takes the diffuser :lol:

Ah yes, design by committee. That always works well. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Surely not... SURELY NOT?

"Mercedes want to replace team principal Ross Brawn as part of a restructure aimed at improving the team's performance.

The proposal is to replace Brawn, who masterminded Michael Schumacher's seven world titles at Benetton and Ferrari, with two new appointments.

New executive director Toto Wolff is the first of these and he agreed a deal to bring in McLaren technical director Paddy Lowe."



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21143847


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:27 pm 
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BBC now reporting that Lowe is in and brawn and fry are out


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Doesn't surprise me in three years he has gotten the team going backwards.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:32 pm 
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James Allen has just tweeted that the Merc phone-in with the journos is about to start... this could be interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Although Brawn has had a very successful career, it should be pointed out his only success as team principal came when the massive Honda budget of 2007/2008 enabled him to spend an almost unlimited pile of money to develop three different cars for the massive rules change in 2009. Ferrari and McLaren, the only teams with comparable resources/money at the time were investing all their effort in fighting the closely fought world championships while Honda cut their losses, didn't do any serious development of their 2007/2008 models and used their huge resources almost exclusively on the 2009 rule changes.

It was the most expensive F1 car in the history of the sport by some considerable margin.

Although the season campaign was handicapped by the Honda pull out at the end of 08, meaning the car had to be adapted to run a Mercedes engine and run on the lowest annual budget of a championship winning team, inflation adjusted, in the modern era of the sport the base platform was so far ahead of the rivals (except for the Red Bull) that win in 2009 was only made possible by the huge Honda resources developing the car rather than the genius of Brawn.

That's not to say that he didn't play a part, because he did have to operate on a shoe string budget, but there was virtually no development of the car made during the year (HRT, arguably, developed their car more in a season than Brawn did, and I think that Button is the first WDC in a long, long time to be driving the same car in the final race of the season as in the first. So while Brawn does deserve credit for managing the team during 2009, this was more to enable it to turn up to races and race rather than a typical F1 championship strategy.

This is not to say Brawn isn't a competent F1 team boss, it's just to say there's no real evidence for it. The only success he had as team principal came under unusual circumstances, he can't be blamed for the poor 2007 and 2008 performances, because he played no part in the 2007 car development and then made the decision to focus on 2009 (so I guess he can be blamed for a poor 2008, but that was part of his plan, which worked with a successful 09)

Since 2010, the performances of the team have gone backwards. Although Mercedes won in China this year, it's worth pointing out they could have won in China the previous seasons as well (2010 Rosberg lost the lead by running off the track, and in 2011 the team underfilled Rosberg's car with fuel when he had switched to the optimal strategy first, and McLaren then followed)

Their 2010 performance was stronger than their 2011 performance and in 2012 they finished one place lower. So he hasn't had a good track record operating under Mercedes. Now, they might be a reflection of him not working well in the new environment that Mercedes has created (being a much more corporate, numbers driven team than Ferrari) rather than a reflection of his actual abilities in his ideal environment but even if that is the case, Mercedes now own the team and that environment is not going to change. So even if he is an amazing team principal it doesn't matter, all the evidence suggests he isn't going to deliver that for Mercedes.

However, there is no real evidence that he does excel in the team principal role - the area his genius showed was as Technical Director and Strategist at Ferrari. Of course, it is unlikely he will step down to this position at Mercedes (it is very rare someone would make a downwards move in such a publicly visible position, particularly in a company they used to own) so if Mercedes do decide he is not cut out to be team principal, or he decides he does not want to continue in that role, the only real choice for him is to leave.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Mercedes want to replace team principal Ross Brawn as part of a restructure aimed at improving the team's performance.
The proposal is to replace Brawn, who masterminded Michael Schumacher's seven world titles at Benetton and Ferrari, with two new appointments.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21143


I doubt Lewis will be happy with all these changes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Good summary! I was of the opinion that Ross Brawn's genius was more in the technical / strategy arena and his decision to buy the remnants of Honda was based on his knowledge that they had designed a beast of a car for 2009. Not so sure whether he knew that the Mercedes powerplant would shoehorn in so nicely but a well-reasoned gamble all the same.

As for his current position - if all these rumours are true I do not see how he can continue at Merc.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Although the initial subject was discussing Paddy Lowe, the thread has turned into a general discussion of the changes happening at Mercedes, including Brawn leaving. This is more an FYI, rather than a criticism as you would not have realised that by posting this thread, but it might make sense for the two threads to be merged (and to have the moderators renamed the Paddy Lowe one to something like "Mercedes changes, Paddy Lowe in, Ross Brawn out?"

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5956


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:19 pm 
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This is surely a mistake on mercs behalf


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Here's a quote from Brawn after Lewis signed.

Quote:
"Once we were able to explain what we were trying to achieve here, what our ambitions were and the things we were putting in place, I think it was the type of thing Lewis needed, or wanted, at this stage of his career."


Now the goal posts have changed somewhat I wonder what the mood is?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Here's a quote from Brawn after Lewis signed.

Quote:
"Once we were able to explain what we were trying to achieve here, what our ambitions were and the things we were putting in place, I think it was the type of thing Lewis needed, or wanted, at this stage of his career."


Now the goal posts have changed somewhat I wonder what the mood is?


Is it not alsop possible that Lewis was aware that some of these, possibly all of these changes, were going to come in to play? I admit, seems odd negotiating with a man who wouldn't even be there, but I'd have to expect the bosses gave some indication this was coming. Still Haug and Brawn leaving seems like a very big change.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Here's a quote from Brawn after Lewis signed.

Quote:
"Once we were able to explain what we were trying to achieve here, what our ambitions were and the things we were putting in place, I think it was the type of thing Lewis needed, or wanted, at this stage of his career."


Now the goal posts have changed somewhat I wonder what the mood is?


I don't really think Mercedes has planned this restructuring without taking Lewis' opinion first.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:40 pm 
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sultanofhyd wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Here's a quote from Brawn after Lewis signed.

Quote:
"Once we were able to explain what we were trying to achieve here, what our ambitions were and the things we were putting in place, I think it was the type of thing Lewis needed, or wanted, at this stage of his career."


Now the goal posts have changed somewhat I wonder what the mood is?


I don't really think Mercedes has planned this restructuring without taking Lewis' opinion first.



Why would they speak to Lewis he is only a driver. How often do multi national companies worth billions consult with a driver on issues regarding management of one of its companies?

As for knowing they were coming into play. According to Toto it only happened in the last few weeks. So after Lewis had signed at least.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:43 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Here's a quote from Brawn after Lewis signed.

Quote:
"Once we were able to explain what we were trying to achieve here, what our ambitions were and the things we were putting in place, I think it was the type of thing Lewis needed, or wanted, at this stage of his career."


Now the goal posts have changed somewhat I wonder what the mood is?


Is it not alsop possible that Lewis was aware that some of these, possibly all of these changes, were going to come in to play? I admit, seems odd negotiating with a man who wouldn't even be there, but I'd have to expect the bosses gave some indication this was coming. Still Haug and Brawn leaving seems like a very big change.


Is Brawn Leaving? Or simply taking another role. He was always better as head of engineering, not as team principal. If that's where he's going it's probably a good change anyway. This idea of "promoting excellence" can be taken too far. Why not do what he is best at? Engineering.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Man that Andrew Benson has a gigantic chip on his shoulder:
Andrew Benson wrote:
Mercedes have won just one race in three years, and Schumacher's best result was an inherited third place at Valencia last year.

No Andrew, Schumacher's best result was a third place at Valencia last year.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21143847

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:49 pm 
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The link in the OP does not seem to work.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Part of me hopes Brawn goes to Mcalren if this does turn out to be true. I think with Micheal going and partly not doing great damaged Ross stock a bit. Mercedes never had a big budget to compete with but also with them having too many people for each area of the car can't be good neither.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Balibari wrote:
What the hell is going on at Merc? Since I became baffled as to why they have so many senior designers and engineers they've employed about three more!

At this rate, if they do manage to lure Adrian Newey away from Red Bull the only position left will be tea boy.


I'll do it! I make a mean cup of tea.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Mercedes are throwing everything but the kitchen sink into this now, a last ditch attempt to save a sinking ship.

It should be interesting to see how this develops for them, but I am not holding my breath.

If Brawn does leave, I wonder where, if anywhere, he will end up. Wouldn't surprise me if he retired but at the same time I can easily see him being picked up by either McLaren or Williams as a Tech-Director and consultant like he was at Ferrari, rather than a team principle.

As a Mclaren Fan, I for one would welcome our new Brawny overlord.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Toto Wolff has denied speculation that he plans to replace Ross Brawn

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/m ... oss-brawn/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:10 pm 
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Andrew Benson is the worst sort of journo. He's reporting something that is only speculation at best at the moment as fact. Nothing has been confirmed about Brawn leaving or Loew joining but he completely fails to mention that. The man loses the BBC credibilty everytime he opens his laptop to write an article.

Until it is confirmed then it is a rumour. But we all know Benson has always had a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Brawn because of his hatred of Schumacher.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:12 pm 
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ash71712 wrote:
Toto Wolff has denied speculation that he plans to replace Ross Brawn

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/m ... oss-brawn/

Yet Benson is spouting it as fact that he will replace Brawn... Very poor journalism.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Unless Brawn is being moved to a different part of the Merc F1 team I see this as a very bad decision, sure Merc want a bit of a shake up at the top but you can't just replace nearly all of them (who have had very respectable careers) with a bunch of untested people in their position. As someone said above, at least change Brawn to head of engineering or something. I am getting very concerned at Merc, especially given how close the season start is.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:17 pm 
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H-Holloway wrote:
Mercedes are throwing everything but the kitchen sink into this now, a last ditch attempt to save a sinking ship.

It should be interesting to see how this develops for them, but I am not holding my breath.

If Brawn does leave, I wonder where, if anywhere, he will end up. Wouldn't surprise me if he retired but at the same time I can easily see him being picked up by either McLaren or Williams as a Tech-Director and consultant like he was at Ferrari, rather than a team principle.

As a Mclaren Fan, I for one would welcome our new Brawny overlord.


i was thinking the same, this is the last push to finally try and get some results, i wouldn't be surprised is they have a two year plan to succeed and then if doesn't work...... well pull the plug.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Andrew Benson is the worst sort of journo. He's reporting something that is only speculation at best at the moment as fact. Nothing has been confirmed about Brawn leaving or Loew joining but he completely fails to mention that. The man loses the BBC credibilty everytime he opens his laptop to write an article.

Until it is confirmed then it is a rumour. But we all know Benson has always had a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Brawn because of his hatred of Schumacher.

well Benson isn't the only one pushing the rumour...Eddie Jordan is also pushing it as well,and i've learned to listen him when he makes comments like these.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Hahahahaha. Eddie Jordan and Andrew Benson? I'd rather wait for genuine confirmation. I still think Jordan guessed Hamilton's move, he knew hed be right one way or the other.

Either way the whole thing is very bad for Merc IMO. Unsettling the entire top brass this close to the season starting has never worked well before. It leaves the team on the back foot whilst new members settle in and find their feet. Could be a long year ahead.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Andrew Benson is the worst sort of journo. He's reporting something that is only speculation at best at the moment as fact. Nothing has been confirmed about Brawn leaving or Loew joining but he completely fails to mention that. The man loses the BBC credibilty everytime he opens his laptop to write an article.

Until it is confirmed then it is a rumour. But we all know Benson has always had a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Brawn because of his hatred of Schumacher.


He's not basing it on the Bild story though (as other news sources were earlier), he's basing it on new quotes given to him by Eddie Jordan. It says in the BBC article that Jordan has independently confirmed the rumours.

A story doesn't need to be confirmed by the parties actually involved to be fact; the Hamilton to Mercedes story is just one example of that, when Benson wrote an article of similar conviction stating what was about to happen (again on the basis of Eddie Jordan's information). If the Lowe to Mercedes story is true, as now seems very likely, will he still be "losing the BBC credibility?"

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Juggles wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Andrew Benson is the worst sort of journo. He's reporting something that is only speculation at best at the moment as fact. Nothing has been confirmed about Brawn leaving or Loew joining but he completely fails to mention that. The man loses the BBC credibilty everytime he opens his laptop to write an article.

Until it is confirmed then it is a rumour. But we all know Benson has always had a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Brawn because of his hatred of Schumacher.


He's not basing it on the Bild story though (as other news sources were earlier), he's basing it on new quotes given to him by Eddie Jordan. It says in the BBC article that Jordan has independently confirmed the rumours.

A story doesn't need to be confirmed by the parties actually involved to be fact; the Hamilton to Mercedes story is just one example of that, when Benson wrote an article of similar conviction stating what was about to happen (again on the basis of Eddie Jordan's information). If the Lowe to Mercedes story is true, as now seems very likely, will he still be "losing the BBC credibility?"

yes, because as much as people like to think of Eddie Jordan as an oracle he is just an eccentric who relays rumour as fact himself who does on occasion get it right but very often doesn't as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:38 pm 
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potter84 wrote:
yes, because as much as people like to think of Eddie Jordan as an oracle he is just an eccentric who relays rumour as fact himself who does on occasion get it right but very often doesn't as well.


An eccentric, yes, but a well informed one. He got Schumacher to Mercedes right and Hamilton to the same place three years later. I'm willing to take his word for it this time, particularly because Brawn's departure would make more sense with Wolff's arrival.

Anyway, the main thing I'm objecting to is a slagging off of Andrew Benson on pretty shaky grounds. I'm indifferent towards the man but he is reporting new information given to him by a source who has got it right the last few times. If that is poor journalism then all sports reporting is poor journalism.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
ash71712 wrote:
Toto Wolff has denied speculation that he plans to replace Ross Brawn

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/m ... oss-brawn/

Yet Benson is spouting it as fact that he will replace Brawn... Very poor journalism.


To be fair in that case the same could be said about Eddie Jordan when he first reported that Lewis was leaving McLaren for Mercedes even though Lewis, McLaren and Mercedes denied that was the case. However if nothing comes from these claims Benson has made regards Brawn leaving Mercedes then you're spot on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Juggles wrote:
potter84 wrote:
yes, because as much as people like to think of Eddie Jordan as an oracle he is just an eccentric who relays rumour as fact himself who does on occasion get it right but very often doesn't as well.


An eccentric, yes, but a well informed one. He got Schumacher to Mercedes right and Hamilton to the same place three years later. I'm willing to take his word for it this time, particularly because Brawn's departure would make more sense with Wolff's arrival.

Anyway, the main thing I'm objecting to is a slagging off of Andrew Benson on pretty shaky grounds. I'm indifferent towards the man but he is reporting new information given to him by a source who has got it right the last few times. If that is poor journalism then all sports reporting is poor journalism.

i agree EJ does sometimes get it right but remember he normally comes out with 4-5 rumors a year and yes he does get some right but not all, to be honest any people who used to confide in him probably doesn't anymore after he has proved time and again he can't keep quiet about anything, which one of these days or possibly has already destroyed a potential deal or two.


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