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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:12 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21016926

Interesting read, if only for the fact AB thinks the V6s will be rev limited to 125,000rpm.

Haven't seen a topic for this, apologies if I've missed one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Forgive my potential ignorance, and I know it says it in the article, but would 125k rpm be absolutely batshit crazy?

I mean, we have 18k rpm moved down from 19 and 20 previously. Jumping to 125k seems mental. That has got to be a typo surely.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:19 pm 
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No the Turbo spins at 125k rpm, the engine spins up to 15k, but if i'm not mistaken the rules have a limit of 12.5k for the engine


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:19 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Forgive my potential ignorance, and I know it says it in the article, but would 125k rpm be absolutely batshit crazy?

I mean, we have 18k rpm moved down from 19 and 20 previously. Jumping to 125k seems mental. That has got to be a typo surely.

that's the turbo revs !

that engine will rev to 15,000rpm


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:20 pm 
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The 125,000 rpm limit is for the turbo and not the engine. The engine is rev limited to 15000 rpm.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:23 pm 
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The 125,000 is not for the engine but for the Turbo.

I think this whole Merc will have the Advantage is over Ratted. They will have to supply Macca with dimensions possibly even a mock up early on in the process.

The engine has already been unveiled. So all Macca had to do was send someone down to the Autosport show stand with a good camera anyway.

If Merc are building a bespoke engine to suit there vision all it means is Macca will likely do a similar car. How ever with Regulation freezes building an engine to suit a certain car layout IMO is very short sighted. If it doesn't work aerodynamically they are screwed.

Never mind that as far as I know the cylinder bank angles etc are written in the regs anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Okay, it turns out that the 125k being for the turbo is clearly for the turbo on the BBC website. I should really learn to read! Thanks for the replies about this though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Isn't the advantage for Mercedes that they will supply lower spec' ancillaries to customer teams?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:34 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Isn't the advantage for Mercedes that they will supply lower spec' ancillaries to customer teams?



Thats what I've heard to.

One problem though is If the Merc works team doesn't up it's game they are going to look stupid having no teams fighting the top Renault and Ferrari powered teams.

Mighty big risk to take. To Nerf McLaren and effectively put all your eggs in the basket of the historically lesser team.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:04 pm 
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I think Merc has spent more resources on their 2014 powerplant than the other suppliers, and that leads them to believe they will have an advantage. I've always said that was part of Lewis' decision to move there - they've made promises. I doubt anyone has any way to know if their perceived advantage will actually come to fruition, and I suspect that if any of the suppliers have a better starting point it will all be pretty equal again fairly quickly. The teams doing their own recovery systems may take different paths, but I think ultimately they will all arrive at virtually the same end...and that is likely what the rule makers want. Show your prowess in different solutions, but keep the competition pretty even so the competition is there. I also think that's why the chassis regs keep changing, so that engineers and designers can continue to play the same role they are now. Its more cost effective for everyone if its the chassis that determines the ultimate competitiveness of the car and not the engine package, especially with only 3 suppliers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:22 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Okay, it turns out that the 125k being for the turbo is clearly for the turbo on the BBC website. I should really learn to read! Thanks for the replies about this though.

Ditto, I just got excited, assumed Mr Benson had added one too many zeros and started this topic.

Back to the Merc advantage though, Brawn didn't have time to redesign their cars around the Merc powerhouse when Honda pulled out. It didn't do them any harm in the end.

If Hamilton's gone there thinking this way then he's dropped in my estimations (which were good, even if I didn't like him personally). What about all this building a team nonsense? If this was true, doubt he'd admit it, then it sounds like he's banking on the engine and car designers to give him the car, rather than develop it himself.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:26 pm 
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The Mercedes power units are not the weak link in te Merecedes set up. They need to sort out their tyre wear which has dragged them down since their return.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:35 pm 
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scuderia_stevie wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Okay, it turns out that the 125k being for the turbo is clearly for the turbo on the BBC website. I should really learn to read! Thanks for the replies about this though.

Ditto, I just got excited, assumed Mr Benson had added one too many zeros and started this topic.

Back to the Merc advantage though, Brawn didn't have time to redesign their cars around the Merc powerhouse when Honda pulled out. It didn't do them any harm in the end.

If Hamilton's gone there thinking this way then he's dropped in my estimations (which were good, even if I didn't like him personally). What about all this building a team nonsense? If this was true, doubt he'd admit it, then it sounds like he's banking on the engine and car designers to give him the car, rather than develop it himself.

He's always talked about wanting to be given a good car. Why would it be any different now? Very few of the drivers ever allude to developing a good car anymore, in part because they see it as the team's job and not theirs. Others make it theirs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:38 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
scuderia_stevie wrote:
mac_d wrote:
Okay, it turns out that the 125k being for the turbo is clearly for the turbo on the BBC website. I should really learn to read! Thanks for the replies about this though.

Ditto, I just got excited, assumed Mr Benson had added one too many zeros and started this topic.

Back to the Merc advantage though, Brawn didn't have time to redesign their cars around the Merc powerhouse when Honda pulled out. It didn't do them any harm in the end.

If Hamilton's gone there thinking this way then he's dropped in my estimations (which were good, even if I didn't like him personally). What about all this building a team nonsense? If this was true, doubt he'd admit it, then it sounds like he's banking on the engine and car designers to give him the car, rather than develop it himself.

He's always talked about wanting to be given a good car. Why would it be any different now? Very few of the drivers ever allude to developing a good car anymore, in part because they see it as the team's job and not theirs. Others make it theirs.

I suppose anytime soon we will have a Lewis fan bashing you... but I totally agree that all that talk about building a team was utterly hollow, as prior to his signing there have been rumours a plenty about 2014 engines and how Merc will have an advantage. Somehow i was never convinced that he was going there for a challenge. I always thought it was more about change, and hopefully better car with better contract. More power to him in any case, just that the whole bit about team building was somewhat oversold imo, and I frankly never could believe it so far. If he was looking to build a team, he could have had done a lot more at McLaren itself, and hence is my perception of things as I see them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:42 pm 
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DId he ever really say he wanted to go there to build the team around him, or did the media fill that bit in? I really don't recall him giving the team line as a reason for going. As I said, I only remember his "hopefully they give me a good car" type quotes. That is fundamentally what I think Lewis' big weakness is, a distinct line between team and driver rather than a strong relationship with shared responsibility for the "good car".

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:47 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
DId he ever really say he wanted to go there to build the team around him, or did the media fill that bit in? I really don't recall him giving the team line as a reason for going. As I said, I only remember his "hopefully they give me a good car" type quotes. That is fundamentally what I think Lewis' big weakness is, a distinct line between team and driver rather than a strong relationship with shared responsibility for the "good car".

I agree with what you say... about "the line." I did read some stories to the effect of team building.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:06 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
DId he ever really say he wanted to go there to build the team around him, or did the media fill that bit in? I really don't recall him giving the team line as a reason for going. As I said, I only remember his "hopefully they give me a good car" type quotes. That is fundamentally what I think Lewis' big weakness is, a distinct line between team and driver rather than a strong relationship with shared responsibility for the "good car".



He did to Lee McKenzie I think.


But it was a few weeks after the announcement IIRC. I got the impression it was to squash the stories it was about $$$$

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:09 pm 
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ten-four

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:54 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
ten-four


Que?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
ten-four


Que?

code word for understood/message recieved :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:34 am 
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Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
Isn't the advantage for Mercedes that they will supply lower spec' ancillaries to customer teams?



Thats what I've heard to.

One problem though is If the Merc works team doesn't up it's game they are going to look stupid having no teams fighting the top Renault and Ferrari powered teams.

Mighty big risk to take. To Nerf McLaren and effectively put all your eggs in the basket of the historically lesser team.


Its not a mighty big risk, Mercedes don't care about Mclaren now, except for beating them. They have one basket, the Mercedes team basket. They aren't in bed with Mclaren at all any more. No stake in Mclaren (previously holding 40%)

If anything, the team they want to beat most is Mclaren.

It costs millions to find 0.2 second per lap, they can have that for free.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:06 am 
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The figure of 125k rev/min for the turbo is not that relevant. The diameter of the turbo body is.

As I tried to explain to someone who insisted on having a "spin speed of 1100 rpm", that is just the speed of it turning, not the speed of the outside edge of it. If the vanes are longer, there is more advantage than increased revs.

I am sure someone will be along with the math to demonstrate soon, but if you have seen an ice show, you see the skaters at the end of the line whiz along while the one in the pivot hardly moves, even though they are going around at the same 'RPM'.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:54 am 
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Turbochargers are sized according to the mass of the air moving through the engine, and kept as compact as possible for various technical reasons. RPM is a measure of what a turbo is doing at the moment, how much air it's pumping through the engine. But the more diameter the device has, the greater are the problems of sealing the air between the impeller and body, centrifugal stress, inertia, and added mass. And don't forget that somewhere in the turbo will be the MGU-H, and that probably has an upper limit on allowed RPM. Spinning a turbo at 125kRPM is nothing new, but spinning an electrical motor at that speed is a completely different issue.

Mercedes will supply engines to McLaren, but there's no guarantee they will share all auxiliary components. With turbos, specific fuel flow rates, KERS, HERS, energy storage devices (probably a combination of batteries and super capacitors), the management and integration of all these systems will be very important. It's going to be an incredibly complex system, and whatever engine manufacturer and/or team gets it right, it may be the decider in winning and losing.

The basic engine lump dimensions are determined by the regulations, and the size, center of gravity, even the mounting points and bolts are going to be identical between all engines. In theory, you could remove a Mercedes engine from a car and install a Renault without any chassis modifications.

But the auxiliary systems, the integration of components, the trade-offs and compromises may favor the Mercedes chassis. One team's chassis design may be hard on rear tires, another may be less stressful on rear tires.

When KERS was introduced Mercedes had the most reliable and efficient system. Mercedes are really good at this kind of stuff, and it's my personal opinion that when 2014 rolls around, they will have a package that seamlessly integrates all these systems into a transparent and incredibly efficient package that will be the best of all the teams.

McLaren may have the same parts, but I don't expect them to be able to integrate all the systems as well as the Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
Isn't the advantage for Mercedes that they will supply lower spec' ancillaries to customer teams?



Thats what I've heard to.

One problem though is If the Merc works team doesn't up it's game they are going to look stupid having no teams fighting the top Renault and Ferrari powered teams.

Mighty big risk to take. To Nerf McLaren and effectively put all your eggs in the basket of the historically lesser team.


Its not a mighty big risk, Mercedes don't care about Mclaren now, except for beating them. They have one basket, the Mercedes team basket. They aren't in bed with Mclaren at all any more. No stake in Mclaren (previously holding 40%)

If anything, the team they want to beat most is Mclaren.

It costs millions to find 0.2 second per lap, they can have that for free.


So Merc wouldn't care if they have no teams fighting at the top?


Of course they do. Even if it's not their own team winning having Merc engines winning looks good on them. Having no Merc engines in the top 3 teams looks bad on the Marque. Having all the Merc powered teams beaten by Renault and Ferrari powered cars looks disreputable on them.

If they don't back their customer teams and the works team doesn't make an improvement they could end up with three mid-field teams. Do you really think Stuttgart will look favourably on having their brand represented by three mid-field or lower teams? That they won't care how that affects the view on the Marque to Joe public ?

With Renault they have one team at the top so no one can blame the engines for others bad performance, they are proven good enough so it's not the engines holding them back. If all three teams are back in the pack that looks bad on them because everyone will look at the common denominator and blame it. In this case the engines.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:56 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Turbochargers are sized according to the mass of the air moving through the engine, and kept as compact as possible for various technical reasons. RPM is a measure of what a turbo is doing at the moment, how much air it's pumping through the engine. But the more diameter the device has, the greater are the problems of sealing the air between the impeller and body, centrifugal stress, inertia, and added mass. And don't forget that somewhere in the turbo will be the MGU-H, and that probably has an upper limit on allowed RPM. Spinning a turbo at 125kRPM is nothing new, but spinning an electrical motor at that speed is a completely different issue.

Mercedes will supply engines to McLaren, but there's no guarantee they will share all auxiliary components. With turbos, specific fuel flow rates, KERS, HERS, energy storage devices (probably a combination of batteries and super capacitors), the management and integration of all these systems will be very important. It's going to be an incredibly complex system, and whatever engine manufacturer and/or team gets it right, it may be the decider in winning and losing.

The basic engine lump dimensions are determined by the regulations, and the size, center of gravity, even the mounting points and bolts are going to be identical between all engines. In theory, you could remove a Mercedes engine from a car and install a Renault without any chassis modifications.

But the auxiliary systems, the integration of components, the trade-offs and compromises may favor the Mercedes chassis. One team's chassis design may be hard on rear tires, another may be less stressful on rear tires.

When KERS was introduced Mercedes had the most reliable and efficient system. Mercedes are really good at this kind of stuff, and it's my personal opinion that when 2014 rolls around, they will have a package that seamlessly integrates all these systems into a transparent and incredibly efficient package that will be the best of all the teams.

McLaren may have the same parts, but I don't expect them to be able to integrate all the systems as well as the Mercedes.


Learned some from that one, thanks a lot! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:41 pm 
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They'll have an advantage:

It's called Lewis!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
Isn't the advantage for Mercedes that they will supply lower spec' ancillaries to customer teams?



Thats what I've heard to.

One problem though is If the Merc works team doesn't up it's game they are going to look stupid having no teams fighting the top Renault and Ferrari powered teams.

Mighty big risk to take. To Nerf McLaren and effectively put all your eggs in the basket of the historically lesser team.


Its not a mighty big risk, Mercedes don't care about Mclaren now, except for beating them. They have one basket, the Mercedes team basket. They aren't in bed with Mclaren at all any more. No stake in Mclaren (previously holding 40%)

If anything, the team they want to beat most is Mclaren.

It costs millions to find 0.2 second per lap, they can have that for free.


So Merc wouldn't care if they have no teams fighting at the top?


Of course they do. Even if it's not their own team winning having Merc engines winning looks good on them. Having no Merc engines in the top 3 teams looks bad on the Marque. Having all the Merc powered teams beaten by Renault and Ferrari powered cars looks disreputable on them.

If they don't back their customer teams and the works team doesn't make an improvement they could end up with three mid-field teams. Do you really think Stuttgart will look favourably on having their brand represented by three mid-field or lower teams? That they won't care how that affects the view on the Marque to Joe public ?

With Renault they have one team at the top so no one can blame the engines for others bad performance, they are proven good enough so it's not the engines holding them back. If all three teams are back in the pack that looks bad on them because everyone will look at the common denominator and blame it. In this case the engines.


If the Ferrari was not competitive in 2014, do you think they would care how the Sauber is getting on?.

Mercedes are a team in their own right, Mercedes brand is judged on their team. They are not judged on their performance as an engine supplier to Joe public. One thing that surprises me is how little Mercedes made of winning the 2009 championship as an Engine supplier, it was as if it was an embarrassment as Mclaren was 40% owned by Mercedes then and the two very much in bed together.

If Mclaren are beating them with their own engine that just shows how terrible their cars are.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:41 pm 
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lamo wrote:
If the Ferrari was not competitive in 2014, do you think they would care how the Sauber is getting on?.

Mercedes are a team in their own right, Mercedes brand is judged on their team. They are not judged on their performance as an engine supplier to Joe public. One thing that surprises me is how little Mercedes made of winning the 2009 championship as an Engine supplier, it was as if it was an embarrassment as Mclaren was 40% owned by Mercedes then and the two very much in bed together.

If Mclaren are beating them with their own engine that just shows how terrible their cars are.


Getting beat by a Mercedes powered car is better than all their teams getting beat by Ferrari and Renault powered cars.

Purposefully slowing down the customer teams just to make their own team look better be more competitive could backfire if it lets them all get beaten by the other power units.

Makes them look even dafter if everyone knows they have a slower unit and Macca still beat them too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:
If the Ferrari was not competitive in 2014, do you think they would care how the Sauber is getting on?.

Mercedes are a team in their own right, Mercedes brand is judged on their team. They are not judged on their performance as an engine supplier to Joe public. One thing that surprises me is how little Mercedes made of winning the 2009 championship as an Engine supplier, it was as if it was an embarrassment as Mclaren was 40% owned by Mercedes then and the two very much in bed together.

If Mclaren are beating them with their own engine that just shows how terrible their cars are.


Getting beat by a Mercedes powered car is better than all their teams getting beat by Ferrari and Renault powered cars.

Purposefully slowing down the customer teams just to make their own team look better be more competitive could backfire if it lets them all get beaten by the other power units. Which is a win/win scenario.

Makes them look even dafter if everyone knows they have a slower unit and Macca still beat them too.



I would bet they would rather team Mercedes (same applies for Ferrari) would rather win one race over Mclaren (Sauber) win the titles and Mercedes (Ferrari) not a single win. That is how strong the preference is before you look at the fact they spend 250 million on one team and 25 on the other.

It's a 0.1-0.2 "free" time against one of your biggest rivals at the start of the season.To me it is a no brainer if you have intentions on winning so long as you can get your customer to suffer those terms. Which is a big if with a team like Mclaren.

If Mclaren was easily faster from the get go and in the hunt for the titles they could then offer them the better parts anyway if winning a title as an engine supplier was so important.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:10 pm 
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lamo wrote:

I would bet they would rather team Mercedes (same applies for Ferrari) would rather win one race over Mclaren (Sauber) win the titles and Mercedes (Ferrari) not a single win. That is how strong the preference is before you look at the fact they spend 250 million on one team and 25 on the other.

It's a 0.1-0.2 "free" time against one of your biggest rivals at the start of the season.To me it is a no brainer if you have intentions on winning so long as you can get your customer to suffer those terms. Which is a big if with a team like Mclaren.

If Mclaren was easily faster from the get go and in the hunt for the titles they could then offer them the better parts anyway if winning a title as an engine supplier was so important.



It's "Free" time in one way (forgetting the development costs of two units) .

But if McLaren still hold their advantage in other ways all they are doing is letting Renault and Ferrari power have an advantage.

Merc still finish behind Macca and Macca finish lower down the table. With all the Merc Power units off the pace of the top runners. what will everyone blame? Unless they can guarantee that the Merc Chassis is going to be top drawer they are handicapping their own badge.

It's a no brainer if you are all about winning. But the board at Stuttgart are looking the publicity as much as the winning F1 is advertising for them and having everyone with a Merc engine lose doesn't look good.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Very interesting and informative posts on Mercedes, turbos,etc.

Imo Merc only want to win the WDC; their marketing dept must know no-one cares /remembers/knows who wins the Manufacturers Championship.

That is why they have employed Lewis and 'retired' Michael, and kept Nico: youth a far better bet, especially two with such experienced drivers as NR and LH.

Daimler-Benz have far more at stake than any of the other F1 manufacturers. And they have to rescue their F1 image after three.... errr......off-pace seasons.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:

I would bet they would rather team Mercedes (same applies for Ferrari) would rather win one race over Mclaren (Sauber) win the titles and Mercedes (Ferrari) not a single win. That is how strong the preference is before you look at the fact they spend 250 million on one team and 25 on the other.

It's a 0.1-0.2 "free" time against one of your biggest rivals at the start of the season.To me it is a no brainer if you have intentions on winning so long as you can get your customer to suffer those terms. Which is a big if with a team like Mclaren.

If Mclaren was easily faster from the get go and in the hunt for the titles they could then offer them the better parts anyway if winning a title as an engine supplier was so important.



It's "Free" time in one way (forgetting the development costs of two units) .

But if McLaren still hold their advantage in other ways all they are doing is letting Renault and Ferrari power have an advantage.

Merc still finish behind Macca and Macca finish lower down the table. With all the Merc Power units off the pace of the top runners. what will everyone blame? Unless they can guarantee that the Merc Chassis is going to be top drawer they are handicapping their own badge.

It's a no brainer if you are all about winning. But the board at Stuttgart are looking the publicity as much as the winning F1 is advertising for them and having everyone with a Merc engine lose doesn't look good.


Win on Sunday sell on Monday!

Merc want to win but won't handicap engine customers because that's just stupid!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 2993
I don't think Mercedes intend to handicap any of their customers in any way, as pointed out, it's bad for business. But I do believe they intend to field the best powerplant package for the Mercedes team. Even today each team design and incorporate many components in the engine package, such as the intake system, exhaust system, ECU programming, cooling system, and alternator, just to name a few. We all know that in the case of Renault engines during the blown diffuser days of 2011, Red Bull had their engine functioning in a manner quite distinct from the rest of the Renault engined teams.

The 2014 technical regulations are going to introduce a very complex package. There's the basic engine lump, itself a complex puzzle. Add to it a turbo with heat energy recovery system and motor/generator unit, a kinetic energy recovery system with a motor/generator unit, energy storage device(s), switching devices, alternator, and the programming in the ECU. Everything is a set of compromises, when do you harvest energy from the turbo, when do you use that energy to spool up the turbo to boost low end power, how much energy do you use and at what rate, when do you harvest kinetic energy from the drive train and at what rate, do you have the HERS shoulder most of the load in doing that, and at what rate, how will it affect rear tire wear, all these questions each team will have to decide on when they program the ECU.

It's like a game of chess, everyone starts with the same pieces, but how you play the pieces decides the outcome. Mercedes is good at playing this game, they have tremendous resources, money, and expertise in this game, unlike Force India (for example), who basically have to figure it out all by themselves, unlike the mega giant and powerful Mercedes corporation. At this very moment Mercedes are spending a lot of money, and have a lot of people, computers, and simulations working on this puzzle figuring out the optimal compromises, in order to have the most efficient, reliable, and effective system when the season begins in 2014.

Why do you think that Bernie and the FIA fully support the current tire situation and the Pirelli tires? Because domination by any one team is bad for business and these tire regulations make life hard for Red Bull, and give others the chance to win titles. It's no accident or surprise that in the first 7 races in 2012 Red Bull were not dominating, that only when everyone started to figure out the tires and things settled down enough so that the teams spending the most started to assert themselves did Red Bull and Vettel put on a march to eventually win the titles.

Why do you think that Bernie and Ferrari are making ugly noises about the 2014 engines and attempting to kill off the change to the 2014 engines? Because they are looking over at the Mercedes team with Hamilton and Rosberg and saying ..

uh oh


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