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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:30 am 
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We still have quite some guys in the running for 3 empty spots. How do you rate the guys still fighting for a place and those accepting they won't be on the grid for 2013 (Koba, Buemi, Glock)?
The guys in bold I would love to see get another shot now or in the future.

Kobayashi: he is fast but I still think he is too inconsistent, I think Perez has shown he is clearly better than Koba, however I think he is a loss to F1

Glock: impressive at times, but also average quite some other times, not a good record vs teammates, flattered at Marussia as he was always paired with rookies

Buemi: good overtaker but inconsistent just like Koba, still I wonder what he could do in a better car than STR

Alguersuari: I think the way he always improved on his grid position was impressive, if he qualified better he could be a solid driver, hoping he gets another shot some time

Kovalainen: after McLaren I didn't understand why Caterham signed him up, he redeemed himself a bit there but too little to belief he deserves another chance at a better team, he had past peak Trulli to beat and HRT and Marussia were no match, that he couldn't beat Petrov over the season makes me think he is not that special, I thought being linked to Macca and Ferrari was laughable given his record in McLaren

Petrov: he is a tricky one, his first season at Renault was bad, worse than Grosjean's, he was much better the second season, at Caterham he got their best finishing position ever, the guy certainly isn't bad but I dunno if I would give him another shot at a big team

Bruno Senna: I know he has his fair share of fans and I think the name Senna has much to do it, As a big fan of his uncle I liked the Senna name in F1 at first but seeing that Bruno is no where near his uncle's level in speed or qualy I would find him a waste of seat and other drivers deserve a shot more than him

Karthikeyan: had his chance back in 2005 with Jordan, showed potential but that quickly faded, showed nothing at HRT that he should be allowed in an F1 car again

De La Rosa: if it wasn't for his development skills he would not have got another chance in F1 after being sacked by Arrows. As racer he was always average.

Sutil: took a long time to get consistent results, seemed to be hot property in 2011, however in the end only Force India is interested in him, hard to judge if he is that good since he only drove for 1 team who have pampered him a lot, IMO even more a journeyman than Heidfeld, Hulk showed a lot more at FI in 1 season than Sutil did in 5.

Barrichello: not sure if he really hopes for an F1 return, but honestly I think he had his fair share of chances, although he had the potential to be WDC I think his weak mental ability and being teamed up with Schumi at ferrari broke his spirit. Now he has become too old.

Heidfeld: it could have been different if Macca signed him up instead of Kimi back than, I think he showed he had the potential to win races until Kubica came around and his qualifying went average, I think another chance would do his career more harm than good, I would put him in the list of best drivers to have never won an F1 race

Kubica: a shame but his chances to ever get another chance in F1 seem rather slim now, if he would get back in F1 however I fear that he won't be the at the same level any more, more like on level of Wendlinger and Dalmas when they got back after injury/disease.

D'Ambrosio: record vs Glock wasn't too shabby, but same could be said of Di Grassi, would be interesting to see what he could do in a better car but I won't expect something special

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:46 am 
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Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:52 am 
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Wouldn't agree with the Koby/Perez assessment. Kamui scored 9 points scoring positions to Perez's 6 and also retired 4 times to Perez's 6 (can't remember which were due to crashes/reliability, though Perez did crash quite a few times late in the season and Koby's crashes were rarely entirely his fault).
Despite Perez gaining multiple podium finishes and Saubers best ever result he was still only 6 points in front of Kobayashi. So I don't think Kamui deserves to be labelled as inconsistent relative to his team mate.

I'm not saying that Perez didn't deserve the seat, because he did a stellar job. But it was clearly the podiums that grabbed McLaren's attention and I can't help but feel if strategies had been switched and a Grosjean hadn't been so crash happy, Perez wouldn't have been the only one looking at a better drive for 2013.

However, those are all ifs and buts. I'm sad to see Kamui go and would love a team to take him on.

Out of all the rest, I'd say that Alguersuari always stood out more than Buemi, even if the results didn't always reflect it.
Glock, despite not really showing much since his Toyota departure (and not really being able to), I believe would do well given the opportunity in a upper mid-field team.
Sutil's always been a solid performer and I suspect we will see him back in the future.
Kubica, I doubt we'll see him return, unfortunately.


As for the rest, they're either too old or haven't shown enough to be given consideration, IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:59 am 
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sandyf1 wrote:
Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.

I think it's incredibly unfair that Perez' 66 points resulted in a McLaren contract while Kobayashi's 60 points resulted in the end of his F1 career.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:24 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.

I think it's incredibly unfair that Perez' 66 points resulted in a McLaren contract while Kobayashi's 60 points resulted in the end of his F1 career.
mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.

I think it's incredibly unfair that Perez' 66 points resulted in a McLaren contract while Kobayashi's 60 points resulted in the end of his F1 career.

I think when teams look at young drivers, they look for the flashes of brilliance rather than consistency. It is why grosjean has kept his seat and nico hulkenberg is on the up and di resta is going nowhere.
Mclaren signed perez before japan.Up until that point , perez had 3 podiums and double the points of kobayashi. Kobayashi's best performance came in Japan where alonso had retired and grosjean had taken out webber. He would have been nowhere near a podium if not for that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:08 pm 
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sandyf1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.

I think it's incredibly unfair that Perez' 66 points resulted in a McLaren contract while Kobayashi's 60 points resulted in the end of his F1 career.

I think when teams look at young drivers, they look for the flashes of brilliance rather than consistency. It is why grosjean has kept his seat and nico hulkenberg is on the up and di resta is going nowhere.
Mclaren signed perez before japan.Up until that point , perez had 3 podiums and double the points of kobayashi. Kobayashi's best performance came in Japan where alonso had retired and grosjean had taken out webber. He would have been nowhere near a podium if not for that.

No I hear ya, at that point in time I thought Perez was a good call for McLaren. I don't see him as promising as Hulk but he's got talent nonetheless.
But I don't think Kobayashi's racing was seriously lacking in comparison. He still deserves a place on the grid. His finances were his real issue.
There were circumstances that played out well for Sergio too when he nabbed his podiums.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:42 pm 
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About Petrov... He performed MUCH better in 2010 than people give him credit for and I mean he went against Robert Kubica... Thats a hard challenge as is.

2010 was a good season because he proved to be extremely racey and assertive. He proved to be an avid overtaker and pretty good in the rain. He did well, but 2011 was better, but I think people underrated 2010 due to Kubica's great performances.

Malaysia where he and Hamilton were fighting and Petrov passed him going into turn one.
China?
Hungry where he finished 5th?
Spa where he was fighting against both Mercs all day?
Abu Duabi of course

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:44 pm 
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The trouble is that there are only so many seats available in F1 and drivers without budgets have to show that they have something more not to give than the pay drivers, only problem is the so called pay drivers are themselves very good so if you're shown to be no better than a pay driver then don't be too surprised if you lose your seat.

Also remember that every year there are a crop of new drivers trying to get into F1, some that may well be better than some of the present F1 drivers, so if your seemed as just being a good competent F1 driver having no budget, in the present economic climate a promising young driver with a budget is more attractive.

I look at all the drivers you've mentioned, i thought Glock had a seat and Sutil lost his drive for reasons outside of F1?

For the rest Alguersuari and Buemi were dropped from the F1 program for being only average competent F1 drivers, Kobayashi is a shame but like it or not Perez was that bit better, Senna probably will still get a seat because of his budget other than that i don't think he's really good enough, Kovalainen is average in races, Petrov with a budget would get a drive but he's nothing much special, de la Rosa is average and a bit old now, Barrichello and Heidfeld weren't able to dominate their pay driver teammates, Kubica shouldn't be on the list because he's physically not fit enough anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:46 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.

I think it's incredibly unfair that Perez' 66 points resulted in a McLaren contract while Kobayashi's 60 points resulted in the end of his F1 career.

I think when teams look at young drivers, they look for the flashes of brilliance rather than consistency. It is why grosjean has kept his seat and nico hulkenberg is on the up and di resta is going nowhere.
Mclaren signed perez before japan.Up until that point , perez had 3 podiums and double the points of kobayashi. Kobayashi's best performance came in Japan where alonso had retired and grosjean had taken out webber. He would have been nowhere near a podium if not for that.

No I hear ya, at that point in time I thought Perez was a good call for McLaren. I don't see him as promising as Hulk but he's got talent nonetheless.
But I don't think Kobayashi's racing was seriously lacking in comparison. He still deserves a place on the grid. His finances were his real issue.
There were circumstances that played out well for Sergio too when he nabbed his podiums.

I think a team like force india or lotus would have thought hiring kobayashi was a backward step as he was in actual effect dropped to make room for hulkenberg.
IMO even with good sponsor backing he would have landed a seat only with caterham or marussia.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:25 pm 
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A fully fit Kubica is the only one out of that lot I'd consider to be WDC material. Jaime would be a good number 2 driver though. The rest can do one tbh. Wouldn't have any of them in my team.

I don't count Buemi in this because technically he does have an F1 seat for 2013, just as RB tester.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Alguersuari won't be a driver this year, as he was confirmed to be Pirelli's test driver for this year, alongside Di Grassi.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Alguersuari, Kobayashi, Kovalainen and Sutil are all bette than some drivers who will be on the grid in 2013

Buemi maybe as well but I think Algy looked a better long term bet.

Glock, Senna and Petrov I think have had there chance and are not good enough.

Barrichello and Heidfeld have had there day and in thee prime were better than any of the drivers I have mentioned so far.

Kubica has loads of talent but I don't see him back in F1 now.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alguersuari, Kobayashi, Kovalainen and Sutil are all bette than some drivers who will be on the grid in 2013

Buemi maybe as well but I think Algy looked a better long term bet.

Glock, Senna and Petrov I think have had there chance and are not good enough.

Barrichello and Heidfeld have had there day and in thee prime were better than any of the drivers I have mentioned so far.

Kubica has loads of talent but I don't see him back in F1 now.

Agree on all but Kubica to be honest. I didn't ever really see the hype, but I also don't see him back in F1 again. Heidfeld is the man, the WDC that never was to me... in my own humble opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:34 pm 
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sandyf1 wrote:
I think a team like force india or lotus would have thought hiring kobayashi was a backward step as he was in actual effect dropped to make room for hulkenberg.
IMO even with good sponsor backing he would have landed a seat only with caterham or marussia.

A toss up between Kamui and Hulk and I would agree with choosing Hulk. I think Kamui would have performed well in a Force India. He would be a match for di Resta more often than not.
Unfortunately he's been unfairly tagged with a "kamikaze"-type label, probably due to being Japanese, but he has been anything but.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:06 pm 
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I think Kobayashi, Buemi and Petrov are drivers who are clearly talented and have more to give. Kamui is an asset to any midfield team, he is capabe of putting in consistently good race ad qualiying perfomances even if they arent always as spectacular as Perez/ Grosjean etc/ Buemi has shown the nouse to be a seriously good perhaps even frontrunning driver, although 2011 was the best. Petrov didn't embarass himself at Renault, and saw Kovalainen off at Caterham; stick him in the midfield again and see what he can do. The rest seem past it to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
I think a team like force india or lotus would have thought hiring kobayashi was a backward step as he was in actual effect dropped to make room for hulkenberg.
IMO even with good sponsor backing he would have landed a seat only with caterham or marussia.

A toss up between Kamui and Hulk and I would agree with choosing Hulk. I think Kamui would have performed well in a Force India. He would be a match for di Resta more often than not.
Unfortunately he's been unfairly tagged with a "kamikaze"-type label, probably due to being Japanese, but he has been anything but.



Nah, I think it's more to do with the alliteration. "Kamikaze Kamui" it sounds catchy so it stuck. More to do with his name actually beggining with K than his nationality imo

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:57 pm 
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If I talk about KK in a positive light Laura will jump into the thread and attack me :( But needless to say he deserves to be on the grid in a midfield team at worst, I think he could do well as a no2 at a top team too. Alonso/Kobayashi would be a pretty formidable line up. But as has been said, in a world that also contains Perez and Hulkenberg as well as all the top drivers that are in top cars at the moment there simply isn't room. Moving to a backmarker team hasn't done Kovi, Petrov or Glock much good so he might be right to take a year out and try again next year. If Gutierrez turns out to be terrible I'm sure Sauber would have him back. He could be a good replacement for Di Resta should he turn out to be too average next season. If Bottas is as good a racer as people say he is, Williams could be awesome with a Bottas/Kobayashi lineup, they certainly wouldn't have to worry if they were getting the most out of the car like they have been with Maldonado/Senna this year.

Kovalainen I've never really rated, his time at Mclaren was poor and his time at CaterLotus has been made to look like a complete waste of time by being beaten by Petrov. I think Caterham could do worse than to keep him but he isn't making the right noises so they won't even consider him. I won't miss him.

Petrov would be a reasonable midfield pay driver, certainly a step above the likes of Liuzzi, Karthikeyan, Senna etc. I was on the verge of shedding a tear when he got his podium at Australia, his drive was tremendous and it was well deserved. I wouldn't put him in a top car, but if Force India were short on money but still wanted constructors points he's a no brianer.

Senna I don't rate. I don't rate Maldonado either but he managed flashes of brilliance in what was clearly a very competent Williams, Senna didn't. The best he could do was some good overtakes in Malaysia and picking up points when others tripped over each other. People justify his place in F1 by saying he finished in the points lots, but 6 of those were 9ths and 10ths which are pretty useless points finishes, they wouldn't have counted this time 3 years ago and aside from a backmarker getting a point I don't really respect the achievement.

Glock I do rate, he's a good racer and I think would be good in the places I put Kobayashi earlier in the post. Alonso/Glock would get a fair few 1-2 finishes. Sadly he's been wasted at Marussia Virgin and has been let go just when they were showing promise. That he allowed them to break his contract says a lot about his character, and he never had a bad word to say about the team. He'd be wasted if he wasn't picked up in 2014, if not by Caterham this year.

Algy I think could be a top driver. His quali is pretty poor but if he was in a car that wasn't a Red Bull he could do some tremendous drives through the field Button USA 2012 style. Buemi never stood out to me but he seems well rounded, I think if Webber gets injured (god forbid) he'd do an admirable job at Red Bull. The right guy to have as the reserve driver but I wouldn't give him a seat in a top team on merit until he'd proven himself in a Sauber or an FI.

Sutil would be a great number 2 and would win races. It was clear to see his development from guaranteed last on the grid to regular Q3 participant in 2010 along with Kubica and the top 4 teams. His 2011 was less impressive but he still put Di Resta in the shade. Don't know if he'll ever be seen in F1 again because of the baggage he carries. People seem to forget he was strongly linked to Williams in 2012 and everyone seemed to think that was a good idea!

Heidfeld I rate better than most but he's had his day now. Renault were silly for dropping him mid-season as he was more or less level on points with Petrov but as the car dropped off it didn't make a blind bit of difference anyway. Many better and younger options available, wouldn't object to seeing him in a similar position to Pedro in 2012 though.

Pedro I love, he's a lovely guy and a strong racer. Performed very well vs Kobayashi in 2010, especially for an older guy. Shame things never worked out for him, his 2006 spell at Mclaren granted him the podium he deserved though and I think his work in F1 is done. He should cherish his reserve role at Ferrari, perform it until he's physically unable and then retire knowing he more or less achieved his potential in F1, and commands much more respect than many faster drivers to. Not many people are in F1 for about the right length of time and get what they deserve, Pedro did. I have a bit of a man crush for him too...

Narain can do one, he's also lovely but slow as hell and should go and race milk floats somewhere. Soundly trounced by Liuzzi does not a good driver make. Well and truly shown up by Pedro and everyone know what Pedro is capable of.

Rubens I think still deserves to be in F1, the fact that he was in for 19 seasons wasn't an accident. Williams was the right place for him to end his career but he still had a few seasons left in him. When Maldonado started beating him it was time to retire, but he showed Maldonado up big time and I still don't really understand why they dropped him. Would have maximised the car more often than Maldonado or Senna.

D'Ambrosio I think was made to look bad at Monza being thrown into a car with a KERS problem, qualified it fairly poorly and couldn't do anything about it in the race. He impressed me at Virgin and probably deserves another seat, no room for him though and I wouldn't kick anyone from the current grid out to give him a seat. Despite people moaning about pay drivers this years grid looks very strong.

Kubica is competitive rallying and I'd rather see that than him being poor in F1. He should be given some tests to see how his lap times compare with full time drivers and if they're OK he probably deserves a midfield seat for half a season to test him out, but at this stage I wouldn't be especially surprised or even disappointed if he didn't make it back to F1. At the end of the day rallying is extremely dangerous and while he didn't deserve what happened to him, it wasn't hard to predict and he should have taken more care. 20/20 hindsight and all that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:31 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Of all those guys, i would consider a fit kubica , sutil and maybe alguersuari.
The rest are either too old or have not made most out of their opportunities like kobayashi . But i think both petrov and senna will still be on the grid this year.

I think it's incredibly unfair that Perez' 66 points resulted in a McLaren contract while Kobayashi's 60 points resulted in the end of his F1 career.


It's largely because if aren't in a Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus, or Mercedes, then whether you stay on the grid is an absolute crapshoot.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Klien thinks Heikki is the best of the drivers without a seat, closely followed by Glock.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:38 pm 
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If I was a midfield team owner I would be struggling to put much of a case forward for any of them, as in I don't think they are much if any better than anyone in the sport currently. Obviously we are yet to see how Bottas and Gutierrez do (I suspect Gutierrez might be utter guff). Since the Force India seat is the only available one in the midfield, Di Resta would be the benchmark.

I reckon Algy, Kamui and possibly Heikki would be quicker than Di Resta by mid-season. Algy would be my pick because I think he has more potential. These 3 are the ones I feel can count themselves the unluckiest to be out of a seat.

Buemi, Glock, Sutil I think would be a match for Di Resta - good if you want a stop-gap driver for a year.

Petrov, Senna and D'ambrosio wouldn't be too far off, but I would only employ one of these 3 if they brough significant financial backing

Barrichello has had his time - would probably still do a job but I wouldn't employ him over any of the above,

Narain doesn't really add anything to the sport, but it would be interesting to find out just how quick (or not) he actually is

Heidfeld - I'm sure he could still do a job, but he seemed to struggle with the new regs and the time off won't have helped him. His career went out in a bit of a whimper as it was, so I'd rather not see him come back to be number 2 to Di Resta

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:52 pm 
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If I was starting a team tomorrow, and had about 50 quid to spend on drivers, I'd take:

Kobayashi and Jaime Alguersuari.
Kobayashi has flashes of brilliance. JA had a 'hunger' which I really liked. Could have been great, but Marko put a stop to that.

Otherwise, I'd take Rubens. As mentioned above, I don't understand why Williams dropped him for Senna. They would have won multiple races last year. He was as fast - if not faster than Maldo - but was consistent too...what a pity.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Amon wrote:

Barrichello: not sure if he really hopes for an F1 return, but honestly I think he had his fair share of chances, although he had the potential to be WDC I think his weak mental ability and being teamed up with Schumi at ferrari broke his spirit. Now he has become too old.


Barrichello has won what 13 races, and beat Button many times, but he is 40/41 now. People tolerated Schumacher coming back at that age, because he was Schumacher. It would take a similar driver of similar calibre to be tolerated again. Especially in light of Schumacher's 2010 struggles.

I would probably rate Alguersuari the highest out of all these options, although we have yet to see what they could do in a competitive car.

gnolan wrote:

Otherwise, I'd take Rubens. As mentioned above, I don't understand why Williams dropped him for Senna. They would have won multiple races last year. He was as fast - if not faster than Maldo - but was consistent too...what a pity.


True. He was faster than Maldonado (rookie Maldonado but still). I wouldn't say they would have won multiple races but... turning 39 during 2011 they thought he was too old, which I don't think he was. Not at his best, but still not too old. TBH I think Schumi struggled not because of being 41, but because of skill decay during 3.5 years out of competitive car racing altogether.

As for the young drivers like Buemi, Koba, and of course Alguesuari who I think is the best of them, it is hard to tell how good they are because of the complete lack of stability in the F1 midfield. Drivers race for 1 year, run out of money and come back 2 years later at another team. Or even worse a completely new driver comes in because they have money. It makes cross-comparison of teammates impossible. For all we know Perez is absolutely terrible and so is Kobayashi. Or Alguersuari and Buemi are as good as Alonso. It's impossible to tell because we can't count on any comparisons.


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