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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:39 am 
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http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/07189

France isn't completely off the table either, according to Bernie. The Algarve circuit would be the venue if Portugal gets the nod, there was a test there a few years ago and it could make for an interesting race, the circuit has a lot of elevation changes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XWky2-lAkY


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:16 am 
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I'd be happy with either...bit of variation.

I still think there should be more rotation among races. Now that it's generally acknowledged that we're not going to go over 20 races per season it would be good to see more alternation between tracks. We've done it with Germany, we're apparently doing it with Spain if Valencia can keep it together, we did it with Japan.

To me, the more variation in the races each season, the better!
:D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:08 pm 
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In many ways Algarve looks like a variation of the Barcelona circuit, minus some elevation changes.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Looks like an OK circuit. I'm never going to say no to another weekend of F1 thats for sure, and it cant be much worse than Valencia!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:33 pm 
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They should bring back Estoril


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Zandvoort needs to be added. Just for Kumhobocht. That's a name I would love to hear regularly spoken by Brundle. That and Tarzanbocht.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Aeson wrote:
http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/07189

France isn't completely off the table either, according to Bernie. The Algarve circuit would be the venue if Portugal gets the nod, there was a test there a few years ago and it could make for an interesting race, the circuit has a lot of elevation changes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XWky2-lAkY



The only problem is that Algarve doesn't seem to be able to muster two fast corners in a row. It's always... you build up some speed in a fast corner... then a slow corner. So frustrating.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:13 pm 
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And apparently, France are also expressing interest for 2013.

Link:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105268


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


Which is the poorest?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


I thought Portugal was doing all right through the crisis. Thought I read something to say they were doing better than their neighbours at least.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:37 pm 
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BlueSharky wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


Which is the poorest?

If by "Europe" you mean the EU and you are measuring poverty by GDP per capita, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are all poorer than Portugal. Portugal is the poorest "western" (i.e not a former communist state) EU member, slightly behind Greece but quite a long way behind Spain and Italy.

If you want to go beyond the EU, Portugal has a long way to go (down) before it can challenge Moldova, just ahead of Uzbekistan but behind Vietnam in the World poverty league table.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


I agree, with Bernie's price for a grand prix, France seems like a more likely option for 2013


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.

It isn't.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:58 pm 
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then again, the government might take the gamble and hope the GP boosts the economy. doubt it'll work, but governments have done stupider things with money (looking at you Cameron)

slightly off topic, but Portugal is a beautiful place. the bits I went to anyway

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:30 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.

It isn't.


Depends on what chart and numbers you want to use. As of 2007, many charts showed Portugal being the poorest but moved up on the list in the following years yet income didn't change much for it's people...just the math. It all depends on what math you want to you use. GDP, GDP per capita, etc.

Grab average income by average debt. Also include the average cost of living there and taxes. You will find out it can cost three times the amount to use a charge highway there vs. the USA. All this must be taken into consideration. You're not living better/richer than your neighbor if you make 10% more than him but cost of living is 15% higher.

I'm also not adding small nations such as Moldova as the numbers are somewhat off from reality. I'm counting western euro nations only.

Portugal is one of the cheapest places in Europe to build a car because of cheap labor but the car becomes one of the most expensive in Europe when the car company pays it's taxes to the government.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:32 am 
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BlueSharky wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


Which is the poorest?


Greece


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:41 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


I thought Portugal was doing all right through the crisis. Thought I read something to say they were doing better than their neighbours at least.


There's no easy direct answer to this but since Portugal didn't have that much money invested to begin with in international markets, they/banks had less to loose. Banks with the most international exposure took the biggest hit and some taking their governments with them.

Portugal's problems aren't it's banks or failed investments but more towards high entitlement rates backed with higher taxes. If they can control those two, they'll be fine.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:48 am 
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AngusWolfe wrote:

slightly off topic, but Portugal is a beautiful place. the bits I went to anyway


I agree. It is. I've spent most of my time in Lisbon upwards in the country years ago. It's peaceful. Nothing really ever happens there. Everything is low key and I love the summer all week festivals they have in different towns. If I won the million dollar lottery, I'd move there. Maybe a condo in Nazareth. The ocean overlook is beautiful. Spend my nights reading a book while drinking an espresso on the boardwalk lol.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.

It isn't.


Depends on what chart and numbers you want to use. As of 2007, many charts showed Portugal being the poorest but moved up on the list in the following years yet income didn't change much for it's people...just the math. It all depends on what math you want to you use. GDP, GDP per capita, etc.

Grab average income by average debt. Also include the average cost of living there and taxes. You will find out it can cost three times the amount to use a charge highway there vs. the USA. All this must be taken into consideration. You're not living better/richer than your neighbor if you make 10% more than him but cost of living is 15% higher.

I'm also not adding small nations such as Moldova as the numbers are somewhat off from reality. I'm counting western euro nations only.

Portugal is one of the cheapest places in Europe to build a car because of cheap labor but the car becomes one of the most expensive in Europe when the car company pays it's taxes to the government.

So Portugal clearly isn't the poorest country in Europe... x( :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:41 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
So Portugal clearly isn't the poorest country in Europe... x( :uhoh:

I don't think anyone said Portugal was the poorest country in Europe (though Cozz did say that it was the second poorest). See my earlier post - Portugal isn't even the poorest country in the EU. The former communist bloc countries are all poorer in terms of GDP per capita and one of them (Hungary) already hosts a Grand Prix. However, Portugal is the poorest western European EU state and it has been in recession for three years, with the government struggling to pay off IMF and eurozone bailouts.

Not the most obvious place to host an F! race - unless someone else is going to pick up the tab. I wonder what eurozone paymistress Angela Merkel would think about the Portuguese government subsidising a Grand Prix, particularly when the German Grand Prix is on the brink of oblivion.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Gimax wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
So Portugal clearly isn't the poorest country in Europe... x( :uhoh:

I don't think anyone said Portugal was the poorest country in Europe (though Cozz did say that it was the second poorest). See my earlier post - Portugal isn't even the poorest country in the EU. The former communist bloc countries are all poorer in terms of GDP per capita and one of them (Hungary) already hosts a Grand Prix. However, Portugal is the poorest western European EU state and it has been in recession for three years, with the government struggling to pay off IMF and eurozone bailouts.

Not the most obvious place to host an F! race - unless someone else is going to pick up the tab. I wonder what eurozone paymistress Angela Merkel would think about the Portuguese government subsidising a Grand Prix, particularly when the German Grand Prix is on the brink of oblivion.

Weren't Hungary already bailed out by IMF anyway? But the most important question is whether Algarve even seeks government support.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:40 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Gimax wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
So Portugal clearly isn't the poorest country in Europe... x( :uhoh:

I don't think anyone said Portugal was the poorest country in Europe (though Cozz did say that it was the second poorest). See my earlier post - Portugal isn't even the poorest country in the EU. The former communist bloc countries are all poorer in terms of GDP per capita and one of them (Hungary) already hosts a Grand Prix. However, Portugal is the poorest western European EU state and it has been in recession for three years, with the government struggling to pay off IMF and eurozone bailouts.

Not the most obvious place to host an F! race - unless someone else is going to pick up the tab. I wonder what eurozone paymistress Angela Merkel would think about the Portuguese government subsidising a Grand Prix, particularly when the German Grand Prix is on the brink of oblivion.

Weren't Hungary already bailed out by IMF anyway? But the most important question is whether Algarve even seeks government support.

Hungary had a $25 Billion bailout in 2008 - chicken feed compared to Portugal's $105 Billion bailout. If it didn't already have a Grand Prix, I doubt there would be much interest in hosting one in Hungary. Mind you, the same could probably be said of all the existing European Grands Prix - including the British.

If the Portuguese government didn't subsidise the mooted Portuguese GP it is not clear who else would stump up the cash. The economy is in crisis with bankruptcies up by more than 80% last year and the company that owns the Portimao Circuit is in trouble with its creditors and likely to join the list of bankruptcies fairly soon.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:53 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Cozz wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.

It isn't.


Depends on what chart and numbers you want to use. As of 2007, many charts showed Portugal being the poorest but moved up on the list in the following years yet income didn't change much for it's people...just the math. It all depends on what math you want to you use. GDP, GDP per capita, etc.

Grab average income by average debt. Also include the average cost of living there and taxes. You will find out it can cost three times the amount to use a charge highway there vs. the USA. All this must be taken into consideration. You're not living better/richer than your neighbor if you make 10% more than him but cost of living is 15% higher.

I'm also not adding small nations such as Moldova as the numbers are somewhat off from reality. I'm counting western euro nations only.

Portugal is one of the cheapest places in Europe to build a car because of cheap labor but the car becomes one of the most expensive in Europe when the car company pays it's taxes to the government.

So Portugal clearly isn't the poorest country in Europe... x( :uhoh:


No one ever said Portugal is the poorest. And when any one compares countries like Greece, France, Spain, no ever compares their debt levels with say Moldova and everyone with a brain knows why.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Cozz wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.

It isn't.


Depends on what chart and numbers you want to use. As of 2007, many charts showed Portugal being the poorest but moved up on the list in the following years yet income didn't change much for it's people...just the math. It all depends on what math you want to you use. GDP, GDP per capita, etc.

Grab average income by average debt. Also include the average cost of living there and taxes. You will find out it can cost three times the amount to use a charge highway there vs. the USA. All this must be taken into consideration. You're not living better/richer than your neighbor if you make 10% more than him but cost of living is 15% higher.

I'm also not adding small nations such as Moldova as the numbers are somewhat off from reality. I'm counting western euro nations only.

Portugal is one of the cheapest places in Europe to build a car because of cheap labor but the car becomes one of the most expensive in Europe when the car company pays it's taxes to the government.

So Portugal clearly isn't the poorest country in Europe... x( :uhoh:


No one ever said Portugal is the poorest. And when any one compares countries like Greece, France, Spain, no ever compares their debt levels with say Moldova and everyone with a brain knows why.

So we talk about debt level or what or the poorest countries? Belgium has bigger debt (per capita etc) than Portugal for example and Japan holds all records.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Sign them both up Bernie! The more the merrier :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:52 am 
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Para_F1 wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


I agree, with Bernie's price for a grand prix, France seems like a more likely option for 2013



France is completely bankrupt. Think Bernie will do well to get any additional European races.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:11 am 
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I always loved Estoril. I wouldn't mind seeing alternating between Estoril and Algarve.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:57 am 
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Cozz wrote:
Portugal is the second poorest country in Europe. I doubt they'll pay Bernie in these economic times.


Both Spain and Portugal are passing through very hard economical times, but I think there is a point that people from Central and Northern Europe often miss: that both countries have heavily invested in the years before the crunch and have plenty of quality accomodation facilities for visitors from abroad AND that tourism industry is a major engine for employment in both countries.

You can not think of Portugal race (or Valencia, or Barcelona for that matter) in terms of "circus" for local population, but more like a magnet to bring several tens of thousand of people to the area and make them spend €€€ in the local hotels, restaurants and bars in the off-season, which probably means one week of unexpected activity for many business and its correspondent VAT income for the governements. In fact, more than 50% of attendants to both Spanish races come from abroad and this is exactly what the organizers are looking for.

I can tell you from my personal experience that finding a hotel room in the North of Barcelona area is a tough task when there are testings (F1, motoGP, whatever) at the circuit, not to speak when there is actually a race. And, given the overcapacity of hotel accomodation in Spain, this is a remarkable fact that very few activities can achieve.

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