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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:36 am 
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Well here's one for you

What is the coldest f1 race ever held?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:47 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
It's not my assumptions. The teams already scrapped the no tyre warmer rule because they felt it dangerous. So would racing on a track which has a very very low surface temp. Testing is fine because it isn't wheel to wheel, drivers don't need to push as much. Racing would be a whole different kettle of fish.

Zero isn't magic temperature for tires. Teams would just race. It can't be any worse than Monaco last year. They did it on without wet weather tires on most dangerous track in calendar.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:32 am 
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BlueSharky wrote:
Would love to see Pirelli come out with a new set of "Cold" tyres for these kind of races. Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps. Teams would probably be allowed to use them at Austin, Nurburgring and Sochi. More variety is never a bad thing.

Yes i guess they would just make a new tyre that has a lower working range for the track/ air temps


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:46 am 
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Well if we're talking about things that could be done, such as specific tyres for a cold race. How about a track with some form of 'under-asphalt' heating?

Don't know how feasible it would be to build pipework in the foundations a bit under the surface. But if it was under just the track, no matter how big the run offs were, it would punish drivers for even putting 1 tyre outside the track limits.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:12 pm 
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nate wrote:
Well here's one for you

What is the coldest f1 race ever held?

My nomination is the 1973 BRDC International Trophy, a non-championship F1 race held at Silverstone on 8 April.

Image

The white dots on the photo are snowflakes, which started to fall halfway through the race. By the end there was enough of the white stuff in the paddock for the BRM mechanics to have a snowball fight.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:43 pm 
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BlueSharky wrote:
Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps.


That's pretty much how intermediate and wet tyres work.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:49 pm 
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JonA wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps.


That's pretty much how intermediate and wet tyres work.

Imagine how a race on a track of a temp of 0C. Everyone would start on Inters but after 5 laps they'd wear out because there isn't any water. Dry tyres would never get enough heat in the, to work in the first place and wets would be a step too far. You'd have about 10 stops per driver in the race.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
JonA wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps.


That's pretty much how intermediate and wet tyres work.

Imagine how a race on a track of a temp of 0C. Everyone would start on Inters but after 5 laps they'd wear out because there isn't any water. Dry tyres would never get enough heat in the, to work in the first place and wets would be a step too far. You'd have about 10 stops per driver in the race.



They don't wear due to lack of water they wear because of the excess heat. Cold track means less heat means the tyre is cooler.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
JonA wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps.


That's pretty much how intermediate and wet tyres work.

Imagine how a race on a track of a temp of 0C. Everyone would start on Inters but after 5 laps they'd wear out because there isn't any water. Dry tyres would never get enough heat in the, to work in the first place and wets would be a step too far. You'd have about 10 stops per driver in the race.



They don't wear due to lack of water they wear because of the excess heat. Cold track means less heat means the tyre is cooler.

It's the dreaded snowball effect regardless. Less track temp means less tyre temp and on and on.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:07 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
JonA wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps.


That's pretty much how intermediate and wet tyres work.

Imagine how a race on a track of a temp of 0C. Everyone would start on Inters but after 5 laps they'd wear out because there isn't any water. Dry tyres would never get enough heat in the, to work in the first place and wets would be a step too far. You'd have about 10 stops per driver in the race.



They don't wear due to lack of water they wear because of the excess heat. Cold track means less heat means the tyre is cooler.

It's the dreaded snowball effect regardless. Less track temp means less tyre temp and on and on.

Laura Pirrelli would make suitable tires if needed. 0 C is no barrier.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
JonA wrote:
BlueSharky wrote:
Tyres, which have the working range at a lower temperature spectrum, resulting in better grip early on, but more prone to wear when the tyres start heating up somewhat after some laps.


That's pretty much how intermediate and wet tyres work.

Imagine how a race on a track of a temp of 0C. Everyone would start on Inters but after 5 laps they'd wear out because there isn't any water. Dry tyres would never get enough heat in the, to work in the first place and wets would be a step too far. You'd have about 10 stops per driver in the race.



They don't wear due to lack of water they wear because of the excess heat. Cold track means less heat means the tyre is cooler.

It's the dreaded snowball effect regardless. Less track temp means less tyre temp and on and on.



As long as Pirelli don't bring a daft tyre choice it'll be grand. As people said they Test in low temps. Yes it's not racing head to head but if they are not heating up the tyre in those conditions it means the testing they are doing is worthless.

Few extra PSI in the tyres, the new adjustable brake ducts, Ferrari use their KERS all things that can be done to get the heat into the tyres even in cold weather. 0c is not a dead loss. Just another challenge.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:15 pm 
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It wouldn't work. If you want to see cars spin off into each other by lap 2 then fair enough. They'd never get up to full speed either, it'd be tippy toe from start to finish. No one wants to watch that.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:20 pm 
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How do you know it wouldn't work?

If it didn't work then they wouldn't test in those conditions either. It's not as if the tyres go "Oh it's cold out here" and don't warm up. They still heat up. They will be in warmers before being dropped on the grid, so they will have heat to start with. They will do the warm up and get heat into the brakes which will help the tyres. They won't at any stage be on stone cold tyres and it probably wouldn't be much worse than after a long safety car period anyway.

Ever sent a car out on slicks to race on cold tarmac?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Wouldn't work. Not in race conditions. The end. Goodbye. Laters. Smell ya.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
It wouldn't work. If you want to see cars spin off into each other by lap 2 then fair enough. They'd never get up to full speed either, it'd be tippy toe from start to finish. No one wants to watch that.

Laura when did Pirelli or anyone told that there is absolutely no way to design tires that will work in near 0 temperatures? It's Pirelli duty to provide team with suitable tires for every race. How do you know that they would never work? It's not that Pirelli would bring universal tires for such a race. They already bring special sets for Monza etc. Given that current tires are perfectly suitable for testing, the specially designed cold tries would work even better.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Wouldn't work. Not in race conditions. The end. Goodbye. Laters. Smell ya.


Yes it would and I've explained how.

How I know

Because we have sent cars out in winter in a cold hole of a place no tyre warmers and the car came back in after two laps with warm tyres.

I'm sure if OB1 is about he will back me up on how cold Kirkistown circuit is even in the summer. Try it in winter and you'll get frost bite on your pecker if you try a sneaky leak over the transit wheel.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:42 pm 
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You are all so funny. Bless you.

But you have no way of proving that F1 tyres could work in race conditions like that either. So I guess we'll never know if I'm right or I'm wrong.

I say we get bumper cars, you say we get the same type of racing we get in say Spain. But we'll never know because it won't happen. The temps in Sochi will be fine, they won't reach 0C at that time of year anyway so this whole argument is pointless.

Have a banana.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Seriously you guys would argue over anything. Go out and get some fresh air. You might enjoy it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:45 pm 
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We do know. One because of Austin and secondly because of winter testing.

If they will slide about and play bumper cars in race conditions they would slide about in Testing too. It's not as if the tip toe about in testing. If they couldn't drive in it properly they wouldn't test in it and F1 has been testing in cold holes for a long time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Seriously you guys would argue over anything. Go out and get some fresh air. You might enjoy it.

Come on. It's not that you you didn't that part in this argument. I hope you will go get some fresh air too. Don't try to parented to be better than me or anyone. You also typed many words here.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:51 pm 
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No you don't know. No one knows. No one really cares either since the race won't take art in those kinds of temps anyway. None of the races on the calendar do.

It wasn't temps that made Austin tricky. It was the slippy surface of the asphalt. Track temps were about 15C over the weekend. So rubbish example I'm afraid.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:52 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Seriously you guys would argue over anything. Go out and get some fresh air. You might enjoy it.

Come on. It's not that you you didn't that part in this argument. I hope you will go get some fresh air too. Don't try to parented to be better than me or anyone. You also typed many words here.

I am outside. I'm in my garden on my iPad. It's lovely.

Also I'm not better than anyone. We are all equals.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
I am outside. I'm in my garden on my iPad. It's lovely.

Also I'm not better than anyone. We are all equals.

I don't have such luxury now. Air is fresh, but the temperatures are well below -10 here. :-|

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
No you don't know. No one knows. No one really cares either since the race won't take art in those kinds of temps anyway. None of the races on the calendar do.

It wasn't temps that made Austin tricky. It was the slippy surface of the asphalt. Track temps were about 15C over the weekend. So rubbish example I'm afraid.



One of the days of Austin at the start FP 3 I think there was frost on the track.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:58 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
I am outside. I'm in my garden on my iPad. It's lovely.

Also I'm not better than anyone. We are all equals.

I don't have such luxury now. Air is fresh, but the temperatures are well below -10 here. :-|

Well they certainly wouldn't hold a race where you are! :P

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No you don't know. No one knows. No one really cares either since the race won't take art in those kinds of temps anyway. None of the races on the calendar do.

It wasn't temps that made Austin tricky. It was the slippy surface of the asphalt. Track temps were about 15C over the weekend. So rubbish example I'm afraid.



One of the days of Austin at the start FP 3 I think there was frost on the track.

http://inagist.com/all/269817031417794563/

Track temps were still much much more than 0C.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:04 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
I am outside. I'm in my garden on my iPad. It's lovely.

Also I'm not better than anyone. We are all equals.

I don't have such luxury now. Air is fresh, but the temperatures are well below -10 here. :-|

Well they certainly wouldn't hold a race where you are! :P

Yep :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No you don't know. No one knows. No one really cares either since the race won't take art in those kinds of temps anyway. None of the races on the calendar do.

It wasn't temps that made Austin tricky. It was the slippy surface of the asphalt. Track temps were about 15C over the weekend. So rubbish example I'm afraid.



One of the days of Austin at the start FP 3 I think there was frost on the track.

http://inagist.com/all/269817031417794563/

Track temps were still much much more than 0C.



Like I said "I think" . One of the commentators mentioned the temps on one of the sessions and they went out anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:10 pm 
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But the temps were no where near 0C. The lowest all weekend was 10C and that rose pretty rapidly within a few minutes. So your comparison was utterly pointless. That's all.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Well if there was frost on the track it must have been pretty cold.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Frost can lie about for a long time. Doesn't mean the temp is as low as it would seem. Anyway I can't seem anything about frost at the time of FP. Perhaps there was in the mornings before FP but by the time they started it had burned off.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:31 pm 
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My tyres on my car work fine and give me a lot of grip below zero. I will give them my suppliers details and they will be fine :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:31 am 
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Laura, you seem to be forgetting the main reason why tyres heat up. They heat up majorly due to friction with the abrasive track surface, the actual track temperatures play a much much minor role.
That's why you have drivers complaining about cold tyres after an extended SC session even in Bahrain. The same will happen in a sub zero temperature circuit. Tyres are not much of a problem, the much denser air is more of a challenge, both on an aerodynamic and engine standpoint.
Sorry, but I'm siding with Johnston and dizlexik here.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:44 am 
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I don't really care who you side with tbh. The chances of a formula one race taking place in zero degree temps is incredibly slim. It won't happen so the whole argument is pointless.

No tyre can keep heat in it at that kind of temp. Not unless it is made of rubber that'll fall apart in 3 laps.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:27 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
I don't really care who you side with tbh. The chances of a formula one race taking place in zero degree temps is incredibly slim. It won't happen so the whole argument is pointless.

No tyre can keep heat in it at that kind of temp. Not unless it is made of rubber that'll fall apart in 3 laps.



Yes it can, I know because I have been in events where it's been bollock freezing and it was nice to pull the wheels off to get some heat into the fingers.

Now if us lowly guys can do it at local events using the same tyres we used at any other events. I'm sure with all the tech of F1 and things like tyre warmers that we didn't have. I'm sure F1 can do it.

Only once did have I trouble. They were disreputable tyres that I know from experience don't warm well. They were a hard compound which was daft for a short stage. They had been lying outside for three years so well past their dates. But it was last minute decision to go and the only tarmac tyres he had. It was also RWD and it was the fronts that refused to heat. Now if it was a problem for everyone the event wouldn't have ran. It used some notorious stages. Tarmac but tree lined. Other places if you go off they hire in a crane to get the car back. Basically high speed and no room to make an error. Oh and where we stood to watch a stage or too we were standing in Snow.

Now either it can be done or us wee lads working in garages at the side of the house are better than F1 engineers.

So which is it?

anyone with interest. The rally I talked about above used some of the same stages as this one. It was basically a shortened non-championship version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOB2LE9Ll68

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:05 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
I don't really care who you side with tbh. The chances of a formula one race taking place in zero degree temps is incredibly slim. It won't happen so the whole argument is pointless.
No tyre can keep heat in it at that kind of temp. Not unless it is made of rubber that'll fall apart in 3 laps.

You mean like the majority of arguments on internet forums?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:07 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
I don't really care who you side with tbh. The chances of a formula one race taking place in zero degree temps is incredibly slim. It won't happen so the whole argument is pointless.

No tyre can keep heat in it at that kind of temp. Not unless it is made of rubber that'll fall apart in 3 laps.



Yes it can, I know because I have been in events where it's been bollock freezing and it was nice to pull the wheels off to get some heat into the fingers.

Now if us lowly guys can do it at local events using the same tyres we used at any other events. I'm sure with all the tech of F1 and things like tyre warmers that we didn't have. I'm sure F1 can do it.

Only once did have I trouble. They were disreputable tyres that I know from experience don't warm well. They were a hard compound which was daft for a short stage. They had been lying outside for three years so well past their dates. But it was last minute decision to go and the only tarmac tyres he had. It was also RWD and it was the fronts that refused to heat. Now if it was a problem for everyone the event wouldn't have ran. It used some notorious stages. Tarmac but tree lined. Other places if you go off they hire in a crane to get the car back. Basically high speed and no room to make an error. Oh and where we stood to watch a stage or too we were standing in Snow.

Now either it can be done or us wee lads working in garages at the side of the house are better than F1 engineers.

So which is it?

anyone with interest. The rally I talked about above used some of the same stages as this one. It was basically a shortened non-championship version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOB2LE9Ll68

Victory for the optimists I believe.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:09 pm 
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chican wrote:
Denorth wrote:
chican wrote:
Russia, November, October... are we all thinking the same? =D



how about a little bit of geography? it helps to think. While Sochi is a winter sport resort during winter, it is a very hot summer resort due to subtropical climate. Official summer season for 'resort' is from May till middle of September.
in October there is still warm sea and people are swimming and sun bathing, although it is on a chilly side and not as many people go there as in summer

Temperature in October is about +18C during day and +11C during night. So, for the race it is probably not warm, but wasn't it like this in US this year?

More worrying is the fact that climate is very humid and in October it can be very rainy and windy.


EDIT - here is a map of subtropical areas of the world - shows a 'pocket' that Sochi is in
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... opical.png
Before giving that Geography lesson, you should had taken into account History, maybe that was what I was trying to point out.


I know what you meant :) but I am not sure why would you point to that particular event. Can you help?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:13 pm 
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None of you get it. You are all wrong and I am right. End of discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
None of you get it. You are all wrong and I am right. End of discussion.

Are you right though? How does thee know?

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