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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:46 pm 
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105319

So HRT entry maybe bought and a new team being based in Silverstone take over. Will it work? Do we want another backmarker?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:49 pm 
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I like most of backmarkers, expect one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Only if they have Jordan Buzzin' Hornets style paint job with a f**k-off big Scorpion on it. Preferrably lime green and orange, luminous.

But I'll never complain about backmarkers, except when I crash into one on F1 2012.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:55 pm 
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I think mostly it depends on how much financial backing the group would have. If it has solid support, there's no reason it would have to remain a back marker.

The one thing that maybe makes it a bit more interesting to me is that its a group of Canadian/US interests.

That alone would make me want to hear more about the plan as it could become the team from this side of the Atlantic that has been suggested F1 needs in order to grow the interest here.

It could be they are just another lightly financed group that thinks the idea of owning an F1 team sounds exciting... until they start losing money and then losing even more money. But it does make me curious to know more details.

For sure the idea of waiting until 2014 to debut is a good one IMO. Better to make a concerted effort to building a respectable car for next season, than a half-baked attempt from the carcass of the hands down worst car on the 2012 grid.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Agree they they should wait till 2014, I have always wondered how much better Caterham and Virgin would have done had they come in for start of 2009 instead of 2010.

It would be nice to see a US team involved, especially if there will be 2 races there in 2014.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Competing in 2013 with a 2012 HRT with minor updates... not a good idea.
Competing in 2014 with a more developed car, I see no issue.

I welcome these news either way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:29 pm 
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It isn't clear to me what assets "Scorpion Racing" think they will be buying. HRT went into liquidation with considerable debts so the creditors will have the first call on any tangible assets such as the old chassis. The engines and gearboxes will have gone back to Cosworth and Williams respectively and the workshop in Spain was rented. That leaves HRT's F1 entry - but as the Autosport article makes clear, the FIA consider that was forfeited when the company announced its liquidation.

It seems to me that if the people doing the "due diligence" for Scorpion Racing do a proper job, they will discover that all they are buying is a company name, which they presumably don't want to use but without any certainty of an F1 entry. Doesn't sound like a blue-chip investment or a good basis for a successful F1 team.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:30 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
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That was basically my first thought, too :lol:

And I concur with what has been said in this thread already. If they do succeed with the purchase, and spend the whole of this year working towards being on the grid for 2014, then that's a good thing. If they try and rush onto the grid this year then I'd change my tune. That just seems like a completely pointless exercise, as HRT were far enough off the pace in the first place.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Sounds like they are on a hiding to nothing tbh. Using an old HRT car won't get them far, they need a new chassis from word go. Seems like they don't have the investment for that yet.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Gimax wrote:
It isn't clear to me what assets "Scorpion Racing" think they will be buying. HRT went into liquidation with considerable debts so the creditors will have the first call on any tangible assets such as the old chassis. The engines and gearboxes will have gone back to Cosworth and Williams respectively and the workshop in Spain was rented. That leaves HRT's F1 entry - but as the Autosport article makes clear, the FIA consider that was forfeited when the company announced its liquidation.

It seems to me that if the people doing the "due diligence" for Scorpion Racing do a proper job, they will discover that all they are buying is a company name, which they presumably don't want to use but without any certainty of an F1 entry. Doesn't sound like a blue-chip investment or a good basis for a successful F1 team.



They could buy the team for the token pound. Which means they are effectively buying the old debts. But they get to keep any assets.

One of my old bosses used to do it all the time. He would buy a rival firm that went bad for the pound set up a payment plan for the debts and run the business for a year as it was. Then slowly it would be merged into his main company and all the assets sold off through one of his other businesses. With the new ownership most of the old contracts just continued on until they ran out naturally.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:39 pm 
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No amount of investment will get you a brand new 2013 car before Melbourne that would be any better than the HRT. Using last year's car makes sense if you want to run this year to gain experience while building a proper effort for 2014. No clues as to who these Canadian and American investors are?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:41 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
No amount of investment will get you a brand new 2013 car before Melbourne that would be any better than the HRT. Using last year's car makes sense if you want to run this year to gain experience while building a proper effort for 2014. No clues as to who these Canadian and American investors are?

They'd be better off forgetting about 2013 completely if they plan on using old HRTs. Just focus on 2014 completely, test the old HRT chassis so they can learn how not to build an F1 car.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Experience is invaluable. If you're putting a new team together just going through the motions of a GP weekend is massively helpful in designing a car, finalizing roles within the team, learning teamwork, acquiring technical and commercial partnerships, attracting new staff, etc. Its a lot harder to say "please give us money so we can go do this next year" than it is to say "come spend the weekend with us in Monaco, meet some people, learn what its all about, see what you think." Thats how new investment comes to motor racing for new or "small fish" teams.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:50 pm 
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Meh. They could make themselves look like complete idiots and lose any respect before they've even started. 2013 would be too soon for them given it's now just about Feb.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Not if they're using the old car and assemble enough of the old staff and new blood to have at least a bare bones outfit together. Its not much of a stretch to go run the same as last year on short notice if you have the folks who already did it. With the stability in the rules this year the rest of the field shouldn't move that far ahead of them. As long as they can qualify and keep the cars running they'd be fine. You make sure everyone knows you're just using this year to get your fairy cakes together and nobody expects any more than that. If they have a lot of cash, and they must if Bernie approves, they can afford to dress up their show and look better than HRT ever did.

Some of the well known guys shopping for seats may be part of the whole thing too. If you want Heikki, Bruno, KK, or any of the young big budget guys to get onboard you need to give them something to drive THIS year to have them for next year. Nobody wants to sit out a season. They could be trying to pick up the scraps from the Merc management/design team feast that's going on right now, there are so many good possibilities right now for putting together a proper effort in 2014 - but its all easier to do if you've got SOMETHING on track this year.

Further, for sponsors on the backmarker cars that are hardly ever on TV or in the news for positive results, their investment is often just a way to cultivate relationships with other sponsors in the paddock. We sponsored a front running, Le Mans winning team in the ALMS just because we wanted a commercial partnership with one of their other sponsors, and the third big sponsor on the cars was already a partner of ours and the other guys. At first, we weren't even going to bother putting our name on the cars.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Meh. They should wait till 2014.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Gimax wrote:
It isn't clear to me what assets "Scorpion Racing" think they will be buying. HRT went into liquidation with considerable debts so the creditors will have the first call on any tangible assets such as the old chassis. The engines and gearboxes will have gone back to Cosworth and Williams respectively and the workshop in Spain was rented. That leaves HRT's F1 entry - but as the Autosport article makes clear, the FIA consider that was forfeited when the company announced its liquidation.

It seems to me that if the people doing the "due diligence" for Scorpion Racing do a proper job, they will discover that all they are buying is a company name, which they presumably don't want to use but without any certainty of an F1 entry. Doesn't sound like a blue-chip investment or a good basis for a successful F1 team.



They could buy the team for the token pound. Which means they are effectively buying the old debts. But they get to keep any assets.

One of my old bosses used to do it all the time. He would buy a rival firm that went bad for the pound set up a payment plan for the debts and run the business for a year as it was. Then slowly it would be merged into his main company and all the assets sold off through one of his other businesses. With the new ownership most of the old contracts just continued on until they ran out naturally.

I think what you describe is OK if the company has simply ceased trading or is in administration but HRT was in liquidation, the purpose of which is to dispose of any assets to pay the creditors. According to Autosport, having failed to find a buyer for the team by the 2013 F1 entry deadline (30 November 2012), the intention was to close the team down without any unpaid debts.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Meh. They could make themselves look like complete idiots and lose any respect before they've even started. 2013 would be too soon for them given it's now just about Feb.

Surely they can't enter for 2013 now anyway? The deadline for entries was back in November, and HRT weren't on it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:32 pm 
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The FIA can do whatever it wants. If they want this team on the grid, they can waive the entry deadline.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:32 pm 
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This is interesting: http://scorpionracing.ca/ (click on Why the name change?)

An existing bike racing team formerly known as Scorpion Racing, was forced to change its name to Emperor Racing, following legal action by Pirelli. I don't know whether Emperor Racing has anything to do with the bunch of optimists trying to buy HRT's "assets" but either way, I don't give much for their chances of entering F1 as Scorpion Racing.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:36 pm 
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Surely any 'new' team that appears out of the old HRT team should wait until next year and work on building a car suited to the new regulations next year? Why force yourself on the grid for this year and not be competitive at all when you can design a new car for next year in your own time?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:03 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
The FIA can do whatever it wants. If they want this team on the grid, they can waive the entry deadline.

The other teams need to give their permission first. That's why Sauber got back in in 2010. The FIA have to follow their own rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:03 pm 
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Because being competitive isn't always the first priority of a racing team in its early years.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:04 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Because being competitive isn't always the first priority of a racing team in its early years.

It should be. This is motor racing. Every team should strive to be as competitive as possible every year, even if that is the first.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Being "as competitive as possible" isn't being competitive for most, and it might be motor racing but its also a business, and a show. The three will always be at odds, but its usually the business end that wins out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:11 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Being "as competitive as possible" isn't being competitive for most, and it might be motor racing but its also a business, and a show. The three will always be at odds, but its usually the business end that wins out.

swimming pool about at the back won't make anyone money. Teams don't enter F1 to gherkin about at the back. They do it to get the best results because that means money. Simple as that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:17 pm 
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If they were to focus on 2014, would they be allowed to test the car throughout the year on track??


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:31 pm 
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pyratheon141 wrote:
If they were to focus on 2014, would they be allowed to test the car throughout the year on track??

Maybe - as they wouldn't be official F1 entrants they wouldn't be subject to FIA sanctions but without any agreement that they would be accepted for 2014 it would be a high risk strategy and what would they use for engines? Can't see Mercedes or Renault letting an unproven team have a new 1.6 litre V6 turbo to play with.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Whilst I cant see them racing in 2013. It may actually have a few benefits to get on the grid in 2013.

It would give them a chance to get a decent amount of real-life training for their new team of mechanics, it would likely also allow them to effectively use the entire season as a test period to test parts for an improved car in 2014.

On top of that, you may actually find with Cosworth not having a 2014 engine, that they end up getting some sort of deal on the engines with Cosworth on the condition that they run an as-yet constructed cosworth engine in 2014. Obviously if Marussia were the only team, it wouldn't make financial sense for Cosworth to make a 2014 engine, however if they have a second team, things may be different.

I'm most likely talking out my pickle here though so feel free to tear this crap to shreds.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:33 pm 
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There are more ways to earn money in motor sport than winning races.. Sponsors don't have to be on winning cars to benefit from their investment. If that were the case, McLaren, RBR, Ferrari and Lotus would be the only teams with any sponsors. Plenty of teams enter F1 knowing they will never be those teams in their current iteration. If every team only entered when they had a chance to do really well, every racing grid in the world would have but a handful of cars on it. For most, you have to spend the time at the back learning, improving, and building relationships before you can get to the front. Spending a year doing that comes with a financial cost, but the benefits can outweigh it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:37 pm 
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They won't be on the 2013 grid. I doubt they'll be on the 2014 one tbh. Many say they want to get into F1, few actually get there.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the 2013 grid. I doubt they'll be on the 2014 one tbh. Many say they want to get into F1, few actually get there.

True.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:42 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Whilst I cant see them racing in 2013. It may actually have a few benefits to get on the grid in 2013.

It would give them a chance to get a decent amount of real-life training for their new team of mechanics, it would likely also allow them to effectively use the entire season as a test period to test parts for an improved car in 2014.

On top of that, you may actually find with Cosworth not having a 2014 engine, that they end up getting some sort of deal on the engines with Cosworth on the condition that they run an as-yet constructed cosworth engine in 2014. Obviously if Marussia were the only team, it wouldn't make financial sense for Cosworth to make a 2014 engine, however if they have a second team, things may be different.

I'm most likely talking out my pickle here though so feel free to tear this crap to shreds.

The first part is fine, getting some real F1 experience could be helpful. The problem is the second half of your post. If Cosworth haven't got a 2014 spec turbo engine on the dyno now (pretty sure they haven't) they aren't going to have time to produce one for next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:51 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the 2013 grid. I doubt they'll be on the 2014 one tbh. Many say they want to get into F1, few actually get there.

True.

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That Phoenix effort from 2001/02, Alesi's customer McLaren plan in 2008. Both said they were serious about it, neither got near the grid in the end.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Whether they will or won't doesn't change the concept that it still makes sense for them to want to compete in 2013.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Anyone know if HRT had any 2013 plans and how far along they were when they quit if they did?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:38 pm 
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If they get an opening, it makes sense to get in F1 when they can. There is no guarantee they will be allowed to enter in 2014 as a new team. But if they already get in now using HRT entry by convincing the FIA and teams, they have sure shot entry for next year if they can manage financial part and build the car. With gap of 1 year, FIA and FOM may go for fresh entry process starting from scratch which might see multiple entrants fighting for 1 spot if FOM decides they dont want too many cars on the grid.
It is high risk strategy either way, but one can get them guaranteed entry and one is up in the air completely.

I dont know how the hell they will manage to be on the grid this year. Looks next to impossible, but if they can somehow get in. They should. It will be easier to qualify this year with ban of DRS in quali. So they can actually work on 2012 HRT chassis and make into race and gain experience as a new outfit while focusing more on next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Interesting thought, in many racing series the governing body will allow a team to test throughout the year with a view to competing full-time the following year, although they would obviously be excluded from results and prize money.

I'm sure this must have happened before in F1, though I lack the stats to check it, but I wonder if they would allow such a thing to happen in this day and age...?

If a team such as Audi, or even Honda wanted to do it...I could understand them allowing it. For Hank Scorpio Racing, however...I doubt it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:57 pm 
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I found this on twitter:


Quote:
@GrandPrixDiary

I read on @autosportnews that the Scorpions are trying to buy HRT's F1 entry. Well, I for one hope they do it. pic.twitter.com/4qpaQagy

Image

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