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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:09 pm 
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So USF1 is making a Comeback..interesting I will be excited if they make it to the grid this or next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:18 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Whether they will or won't doesn't change the concept that it still makes sense for them to want to compete in 2013.

Not to me it doesn't. Shit box cars, a team put together in less than a month, likely to have terrible pay drivers... Nothing can go right. Wait for 2014, get a half decent car, get some sponsors, get interest from half decent drivers and they'll stand half a chance. If they entered in 2013 they'd stand none, look at Super Aguri, they only survived longer thanks to customer cars from Honda.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:36 pm 
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If its this scorpian racing then it can't be a credible story lol

http://www.scorpionracing.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Anyone entering F1 (whether as a completely new outfit, or by buying up an old one) has to have at least the intention of competing and demonstrably so! - even if at the back of the field. This team could not field last years HRT and expect to be competitive. Heck, they may not even make the grid via qualifying time rule?
Worse still, if they do have inexperienced mechanics and drivers - it could be a real disaster for the other competitors. Do we really want other bits falling off and hitting cars/drivers again?
Nah, sorry, anybody peddling this as feasible without big wedges of cash and the necessary experience is completely barmy - and I'm sure the rest of the teams will be cringing and would never give their approval for such a late ill-prepared entry!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:01 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the 2013 grid. I doubt they'll be on the 2014 one tbh. Many say they want to get into F1, few actually get there.

True.

Lola
UFS1
Stefan GP
etc


MasterCard Lola did for like one race.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:08 pm 
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f1fan09 wrote:
RickM wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the 2013 grid. I doubt they'll be on the 2014 one tbh. Many say they want to get into F1, few actually get there.

True.

Lola
UFS1
Stefan GP
etc


MasterCard Lola did for like one race.

They never raced though.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:07 am 
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Its much easier to get sponsors if you're already up and running, and using last year's car is likely to be no worse off than the team was last year. Again, its a lot easier to build on what's already going, and the only way to build is to learn, and the best way to learn is by doing. You also don't know if they even need sponsor investment or pay drivers. Like i said, if Bernie is in favor of having them, they probably have quite a bit of cash to spend. They could be more Red Bull than HRT in terms of initial investment.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:46 am 
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REPLICATE wrote:
So USF1 is making a Comeback..interesting I will be excited if they make it to the grid this or next year.


Hopefully they do not make the same mistake that Windsor and Anderson made in 2010 and were not ready. Now they are in a lifetime ban.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:35 am 
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I hope they are on the grid in 2013, cucumber and all. Just for Seb to trip over ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Adaemus wrote:
Interesting thought, in many racing series the governing body will allow a team to test throughout the year with a view to competing full-time the following year, although they would obviously be excluded from results and prize money.

I'm sure this must have happened before in F1, though I lack the stats to check it, but I wonder if they would allow such a thing to happen in this day and age...?

If a team such as Audi, or even Honda wanted to do it...I could understand them allowing it. For Hank Scorpio Racing, however...I doubt it.

Toyota did exactly that in 2001.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:09 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Not if they're using the old car and assemble enough of the old staff and new blood to have at least a bare bones outfit together. Its not much of a stretch to go run the same as last year on short notice if you have the folks who already did it. With the stability in the rules this year the rest of the field shouldn't move that far ahead of them. As long as they can qualify and keep the cars running they'd be fine. You make sure everyone knows you're just using this year to get your shit together and nobody expects any more than that. If they have a lot of cash, and they must if Bernie approves, they can afford to dress up their show and look better than HRT ever did.

Some of the well known guys shopping for seats may be part of the whole thing too. If you want Heikki, Bruno, KK, or any of the young big budget guys to get onboard you need to give them something to drive THIS year to have them for next year. Nobody wants to sit out a season. They could be trying to pick up the scraps from the Merc management/design team feast that's going on right now, there are so many good possibilities right now for putting together a proper effort in 2014 - but its all easier to do if you've got SOMETHING on track this year.

Bravo. Well said.

Speaking from experience, there is NOTHING more valuable to a race team than actual on-track experience for every facet of a team. From the Drivers, to the mechanics, to the engineers and to establishing working relationships… even a losing campaign earns them a wealth of knowledge that could only serve to benefit any new team as they prepare for the following season. With 2014 rules changes coming into effect, there's is MUCH to gain from prior experience and nothing to lose. Everyone will essentially be starting from scratch again on many regards and many new things can be learned and figured out during a full season of actual racing.

And let's not forget that although HRT were working through a budget crisis, they were steadily progressing so there was at least some sort of sound foundation there that simply needed more money. Add to their package the KERS boost and who knows how much better they could have fared. Either way, as I said when the news broke about HRT going belly up, buying them up is likely a more economically feasible way for the U.S. to get into the sport and it looks as though it might come to fruition.

As well, seems to me like Bernie might try to get them on the grid for 2013 and I say go for it. [fingers crossed]

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Adrian Sutil taking a stab with Scorpion? http://www.bild.de/sport/motorsport/adr ... .bild.html

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:24 pm 
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So Adrian Sutil has signed for Force India but looking a seat with the reincarnated HRT :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:36 pm 
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Yes. And Paddy Lowe will be their technical director until Ross quits at the end of another abysmal season.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:56 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Adrian Sutil taking a stab with Scorpion? http://www.bild.de/sport/motorsport/adr ... .bild.html


Zing. :lol:

Tufty wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
Interesting thought, in many racing series the governing body will allow a team to test throughout the year with a view to competing full-time the following year, although they would obviously be excluded from results and prize money.

I'm sure this must have happened before in F1, though I lack the stats to check it, but I wonder if they would allow such a thing to happen in this day and age...?

If a team such as Audi, or even Honda wanted to do it...I could understand them allowing it. For Hank Scorpio Racing, however...I doubt it.

Toyota did exactly that in 2001.


Good god is my memory getting that bad? I don't remember that at all!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:41 pm 
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I see that Bernie Ecclestone has today told the Press Association that the rumored Scorpion deal would be too late for 2013:

"I've spoken to them and told them to get in touch with the FIA and ask for an entry," Ecclestone explained.

"They want to buy all the bits from HRT, then form a company and ask for an entry, but I personally don't think it will happen.

"It's all a bit too late. Maybe they could do it for next year."


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Why tell them to ask for an entry if its impossible?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Whether they will or won't doesn't change the concept that it still makes sense for them to want to compete in 2013.

Not to me it doesn't. Shit box cars, a team put together in less than a month, likely to have terrible pay drivers... Nothing can go right. Wait for 2014, get a half decent car, get some sponsors, get interest from half decent drivers and they'll stand half a chance. If they entered in 2013 they'd stand none, look at Super Aguri, they only survived longer thanks to customer cars from Honda.

But where does that half decent car come from? It costs a considerable amount of money to develop a new car from scratch, and if they're not racing then they have zero income with which to do so. No one is going to sponsor a car that isn't racing. Toyota only did it because they had significant funding from their parent company.

The Lola debacle of 1997 occurred because MasterCard didn't want to spend a year putting money in without getting any exposure in return, thus forcing the engineers to slap together something vaguely resembling an F1 car at very short notice. At least Scorpion would have an existing car to use which we know is fast enough to make the grid.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:59 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Why tell them to ask for an entry if its impossible?

Possibly because he knows that the FIA will turn them down and he can then use that as ammunition in his war with Jean Todt over the Concorde Agreement.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Ultimately the existing teams might have a say in whether Scorpion can participate or not. I'm sure some teams may not want 2 more cucumbers on the grid.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Well they've done the hard part - they've got a Facebook page and a logo: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scorpion-Racing-F1/418528954892754. Everything else should just fall into place - sponsors will be fighting to get a piece of the action now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:36 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Why tell them to ask for an entry if its impossible?

Because you'll never know unless you ask. All they can do is say no, in which case you're no worse off but at least you tried.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Exactly, so "too late" doesn't really mean anything.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:00 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:

Some of the well known guys shopping for seats may be part of the whole thing too. If you want Heikki, Bruno, KK, or any of the young big budget guys to get onboard you need to give them something to drive THIS year to have them for next year. Nobody wants to sit out a season. They could be trying to pick up the scraps from the Merc management/design team feast that's going on right now, there are so many good possibilities right now for putting together a proper effort in 2014 - but its all easier to do if you've got SOMETHING on track this year.


Due to that chaotic, pay-driver nature of the current F1 paddock, there are a lot of drivers with F1 experience sitting around twiddling their thumbs or going to race in other series. Kovalainen, Kobayashi, Buemi, Senna, Alguersuari, Klien, Glock.

A lot of them, if you do the math, are going to sit out the 2013 season.

The bigger problem is designing a good car. The 2012 HRT was at least fast enough to make the grid, and 2013 is an evolution of that, so I would say 2013 is a better place to start than 2014. If you start in 2014 you have no chance.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:08 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Exactly, so "too late" doesn't really mean anything.

It is too late to buy up the HRT team as a going concern and submit an entry as HRT by the 30 November deadline. The FIA has already said that HRT's right to an entry was forfeited when they announced their liquidation. All Scorpion could do now, assuming that they can buy the chassis from the liquidators (and do deals with Cosworth and Williams for supply of engines and gearboxes), is ask for an entry as a completely new team and according to the original Autosport article, with the likelihood that the FIA will say no.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Not necessarily so.

Being that they'd essentially be buying all of or as much of the HRT Team in its entirety, they'd likely hire back a great deal of their minuscule staff because they know the ins and outs of the car, the equipment and their systems and they would literally only need a locale in which to house everything. While they would essentially be entering as a completely new team with a completely new name, separate from HRT altogether, the FIA could make certain exceptions, especially if it will serve to better situate the team for the following season when things become sort of a toss-up again. If they competed and took no part in earning any prize moneys and being excluded from the final results, they could pay a nominal fee (for F1 standards) up front to participate in every race. As well, the team could always commit to and pay to secure their spot for the 2014 season right then and there in which case the FIA would realize this is a serious effort and show much more leniency towards them in making it easy for them to join in on the 2013 season even if it a bit later in the season.

Stranger things have happened and I hope this actually comes to fruition.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:57 pm 
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They won't be on the 2013 grid. The deadline has passed and the teams would have to unanimously agree to let them in late. I don't see them doing that for a totally unknown team who want to use chassis that originates from 2010 and was slow even then. Sauber was different because they had a solid base already, this team don't. They have nothing yet. They'll be told to apply for 2014 in Nov.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:41 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the 2013 grid. The deadline has passed and the teams would have to unanimously agree to let them in late. I don't see them doing that for a totally unknown team who want to use chassis that originates from 2010 and was slow even then. Sauber was different because they had a solid base already, this team don't. They have nothing yet. They'll be told to apply for 2014 in Nov.


The only possibility is that due to no Concorde agreement being in effect the 'unanimous team agreement' is null and void and the decision reverts to the FIA. Todt says yes just to piss off Bernie :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:27 am 
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Jezick wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the 2013 grid. The deadline has passed and the teams would have to unanimously agree to let them in late. I don't see them doing that for a totally unknown team who want to use chassis that originates from 2010 and was slow even then. Sauber was different because they had a solid base already, this team don't. They have nothing yet. They'll be told to apply for 2014 in Nov.


The only possibility is that due to no Concorde agreement being in effect the 'unanimous team agreement' is null and void and the decision reverts to the FIA. Todt says yes just to piss off Bernie :twisted:

Still won't happen. If the FIA start breaking their own rules the teams will be properly pissed off.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:37 am 
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When are the teams not pissed off at the FIA? If AMuS is right, the FIA hasn't signed off on the latest CA, which leaves governance of F1 rules up in the air anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:06 am 
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They won't be on the grid in 2013. Regardless of Concorde Agreements, teams being annoyed or anything else. It's too late for them to even consider being seriously ready by Oz. F1 doesn't need another team, it'll be just fine with 11.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:37 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the grid in 2013. Regardless of Concorde Agreements, teams being annoyed or anything else. It's too late for them to even consider being seriously ready by Oz. F1 doesn't need another team, it'll be just fine with 11.



With no Concorde the FIA can let them in mid-season.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:58 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the grid in 2013. Regardless of Concorde Agreements, teams being annoyed or anything else. It's too late for them to even consider being seriously ready by Oz. F1 doesn't need another team, it'll be just fine with 11.



With no Concorde the FIA can let them in mid-season.

But they won't because they'd look like idiots.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the grid in 2013. Regardless of Concorde Agreements, teams being annoyed or anything else. It's too late for them to even consider being seriously ready by Oz. F1 doesn't need another team, it'll be just fine with 11.



With no Concorde the FIA can let them in mid-season.

But they won't because they'd look like idiots.



It's the FIA when has that mattered :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Firstly its not too late, you could very definitely turn up in Australia w/last year's cars with just a few weeks' notice. Secondly, Formula 1 doesn't NEED any of the teams at the back, but they are there. and Thirdly, the FIA has a lengthy history of looking like idiots, why change now? I don't think they'd really look bad for it anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Still won't happen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
They won't be on the grid in 2013. Regardless of Concorde Agreements, teams being annoyed or anything else. It's too late for them to even consider being seriously ready by Oz. F1 doesn't need another team, it'll be just fine with 11.

It's not about F1 needing another team. It's about the INVALUABLE EXPERIENCE the team has to gain through on-track experience. Don't you get it? It's not about what YOU like or think. Rather, it's about what is good for this team for the benefit of the sport as a whole and to be honest, having an American Team stands to benefit F1 greatly as it means the viewership goes up which in turn means the fanbase grows, which then translates to greater revenues across the board.

As for the FIA looking like idiots for allowing a team to enter mid-season… it's been done before to no detriment to anyone in any way outside perhaps some of those teams and it's no different than allowing new or less experienced drivers run in the last few races to gauge the level of performance and potential in order to evaluate their situation in order to make changes and improve for the following season. Wisdom tells that one can never be too proactive in preparation for anything and in F1 every tiny bit of knowledge gained is quite helpful and downright imperative. The FIA have already been a laughing stock to some degree for quite some time for many, yet they still govern many aspects of the sport and teams still participate and compete and we most certainly still watch.

You can be the Negative Nelly all you want but a great deal of us will be waiting with fingers crossed that this comes to fruition sooner rather than later.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:51 pm 
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They won't be on the grid in 2013. I doubt they'll be there in 2014 either.

As of now they have nothing. No cars, no drivers, no mechanics. Nothing. I just don't believe it is a serious effort. It sounds like one of those chancers who say they want on the grid but in actual fact are dreaming way up in the clouds. Time will tell but I doubt 2014 will see 12 teams on the grid.

As for the American team, it'll benefit F1 if they win things. If they have poor results Americans simply won't care and F1 won't benefit anything. A bit like Toyota and Honda, if they started winning regularly Japan would have went crazy, because they were mediocre at best they didn't care about them. They seemed to prefer. But an American team racing at the back of the grid wouldn't get any headlines in the US that's for sure.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:56 pm 
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And why would you assume and american team would take up the tail end of the field?

Here in America we have the minds, talent and experience to build a real contender and I don't anyone would be complacent with simply partaking in races. I think if a real American Team is formed it will be with a purpose and I think there are many people who will do what they can to make it succeed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:58 pm 
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The invaluable experience would be at the expense of untold amounts of money. Maintaining a Formula One team over a 20-race calendar isn't cheap. They'd have few (if any) sponsors and a slow, probably unreliable, car. Laura is right. If the team ever becomes a reality, they'd be better off taking 2013 to spend on research ala Toyota in 2001 (Though.. let's not look at how that worked out for them).

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