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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
The invaluable experience would be at the expense of untold amounts of money. Maintaining a Formula One team over a 20-race calendar isn't cheap. They'd have few (if any) sponsors and a slow, probably unreliable, car. Laura is right. If the team ever becomes a reality, they'd be better off taking 2013 to spend on research ala Toyota in 2001 (Though.. let's not look at how that worked out for them).

This.

As for assuming they'll be at the back, most new teams are when they start from scratch and they certainly will be if they use old HRT chassis that date back from 2010 originally. That would just be a foregone conclusion. As for America having talent then yes they do but the question is does the talent want to get into F1 and will the people at Scorpion actually have said talent? Who knows. But it's more likely to be a failure at this point in time I'm afraid, especially with the HRT chassis plans. That needs to be dropped ASAP.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:14 pm 
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One thing though. If they get in for 2013 and manage to complete the season they have more chance of getting an entry for 2014.

If they take a year out there is less chance they will get in for 2014. If they don't get in all the time spent on 2014 is wasted.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
The invaluable experience would be at the expense of untold amounts of money. Maintaining a Formula One team over a 20-race calendar isn't cheap. They'd have few (if any) sponsors and a slow, probably unreliable, car. Laura is right. If the team ever becomes a reality, they'd be better off taking 2013 to spend on research ala Toyota in 2001 (Though.. let's not look at how that worked out for them).

And they probably have plenty of cash if even Bernie is suggesting they seek an entry. Not all new teams have to be completely strapped for cash like HRT and Marussia. They may have PLENTY of investment lined up. Do you think they'd even bother with trying to be on the grid if they couldn't afford to run this year? And as I said before, its a lot easier to get more involvement when you have something running than when you have a hypothetical presentation.

You have to have a building year (or several) no matter what - makes more sense to build on something stable and known than to be thrown into the deep end of the 2014 regs straight away. Also a hell of a lot easier to get an engine deal if you're up and running. And that's sort of essential.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Still wont happen in 2013.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Lets put the bloody handbags away and wait and see shall we ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:40 pm 
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I'm talking about whether it SHOULD happen from the team's perspective, not whether it will.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:41 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
And they probably have plenty of cash if even Bernie is suggesting they seek an entry. Not all new teams have to be completely strapped for cash like HRT and Marussia. They may have PLENTY of investment lined up. Do you think they'd even bother with trying to be on the grid if they couldn't afford to run this year? And as I said before, its a lot easier to get more involvement when you have something running than when you have a hypothetical presentation.

You have to have a building year (or several) no matter what - makes more sense to build on something stable and known than to be thrown into the deep end of the 2014 regs straight away. Also a hell of a lot easier to get an engine deal if you're up and running. And that's sort of essential.

According to Mark Hughes in today's Autosport, the Scorpion outfit is planning to run the HRT cars on a budget of €45 million, which is about €15 million less than any other team on the grid and with only 60 staff, which is half the HRT workforce. These figures don't suggest that they have plenty of cash.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:55 pm 
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You don't need to throw money at what is basically a testing exercise. Their budget to run the old cars isn't necessarily indicative of what they will be spending on development of and running a 2014 car. Also, link?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Gimax wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And they probably have plenty of cash if even Bernie is suggesting they seek an entry. Not all new teams have to be completely strapped for cash like HRT and Marussia. They may have PLENTY of investment lined up. Do you think they'd even bother with trying to be on the grid if they couldn't afford to run this year? And as I said before, its a lot easier to get more involvement when you have something running than when you have a hypothetical presentation.

You have to have a building year (or several) no matter what - makes more sense to build on something stable and known than to be thrown into the deep end of the 2014 regs straight away. Also a hell of a lot easier to get an engine deal if you're up and running. And that's sort of essential.

According to Mark Hughes in today's Autosport, the Scorpion outfit is planning to run the HRT cars on a budget of €45 million, which is about €15 million less than any other team on the grid and with only 60 staff, which is half the HRT workforce. These figures don't suggest that they have plenty of cash.

This does not have to speak of the amount of money they have to spend. It might just be they are testing the limitations of running on such a tight budget. They may well have more money at their disposal but feel the need to ease their way in. As well 60 employees to run an already existing car isn't all that far fetched as half of the HRT staff worked at the factory designing and developing the cars and new systems. I think 60 people are more than enough to field 2 cars for a bit. From there I'd imagine they'd up the staff as they hire aero engineers and manufacturing specialists to actually work on developing their new car.

We know it's a longshot at this point but in this day and age one can never live in a world of absolutes. Especially when people have $$$$ in their eyes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:16 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
Worse still, if they do have inexperienced mechanics and drivers - it could be a real disaster for the other competitors. Do we really want other bits falling off and hitting cars/drivers again?

Isn't this the same argument people had when we added three new teams a few years ago? If I recall, they all did OK. They weren't the quickest, of course, but wasn't it the more experienced, 'professional,' teams that had wheels falling off and such?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:34 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
You don't need to throw money at what is basically a testing exercise. Their budget to run the old cars isn't necessarily indicative of what they will be spending on development of and running a 2014 car. Also, link?

I'm reading from the copy of Autosport that came through my letterbox this morning - you should be able to find Mark Hughes's article in the digital edition, if you are a subsciber.

I should clarify - Hughes is saying that they plan to have a total workforce of 60 people, including those at the operational base in an industrial unit in Silverstone that will be half the size of the next smallest team's HQ. The €45 million budget is also intended to cover continued aerodynamic development using another team's wind tunnel. He finishes the piece by speculating that Scorpion will not have the wherewithal to develop a new car for 2014 but will have to petition the FIA to allow customer cars.

This may well be a brave attempt to go F1 racing on a shoestring but what it does not appear to be is a well-funded new challenger that is going to challenge Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Well to that last bit, neither Williams, nor Force India, nor Caterham, nor Torro Rosso, all whom have considerable budgets in comparison are challenging the big 3 either. The teams I feel have the best chance at challenging the big 3 are Sauber and Williams and that's due to them having a really strong cars last year but now the question is how well will their drivers fare. Maldonado and Hulk are certainly the more experienced and more proven of the 4 but we have to see if Bottas is all he's rumored to be. Drivers have much to do with how well a car performs and if a new team can luck out into a sensational driver, it only serves to improve their chances. The better the results the more notoriety, the more notoriety the easier it is to acquire sponsorship, thereby increasing the working budget. If all falls into place, then a team in such a position would be poise for vast improvement. The last great private team did a splendid job of this and might have still been around had they not run into interference. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:42 am 
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I know nothing abut the people, but perspective here guys, There are 20 entries better than you in the world, but you are fighting for 21. Where else can you say that?

Even if they are 5 seconds off the pace, they are 5 seconds off the best. They have a visible target and know what they need to do.

I hope they get approved and at minimum get a car on the grid. If they drag on and get nowhere in a few years, then slag them. but for now give them your support

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:04 pm 
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as you say 45 MILLION budget but how much of that is from the two drivers?(we will never know i gess) 20 million id say so looks like we will see sena and may be kobi this year and jean todt having a new shiney car ,who knows may be brawn or a brawn type with some say in the padock to be a part of it that would be a scoop for them as it would go a long way to grting them in the door lets face it thats all they want then sell it


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:11 pm 
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5 seconds off the pace would be , honestly, a miracle, considering the ex-HRT has split into the 4 corners of the universe.

Let's face it, Brawn bought a perfectly good and working unit, which invested the previous year lots of $$$ and work in the development of the car. They had a chassis, continuity, employed people, MONEY (let's not forget Honda did leave some cash in their accounts). He bought, if I may so, a living organism, slapped a Mercedes engine on it, and it worked. But he had a much easier situation to deal with.

Whilst, even if Scorpion would buy today all the assets of HRT and would employ back all the staff tomorrow, you don't just manage to build a car - and make it drivable for F1- in just one month. This ain't the 70's garage days anymore - I doubt even Newey could manage such a major task, let alone some obscure investment team we know nothing about, except their name.

So, realistically, it's just dust in the wind.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:05 pm 
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ATM2 wrote:
5 seconds off the pace would be , honestly, a miracle, considering the ex-HRT has split into the 4 corners of the universe.

Let's face it, Brawn bought a perfectly good and working unit, which invested the previous year lots of $$$ and work in the development of the car. They had a chassis, continuity, employed people, MONEY (let's not forget Honda did leave some cash in their accounts). He bought, if I may so, a living organism, slapped a Mercedes engine on it, and it worked. But he had a much easier situation to deal with.

Whilst, even if Scorpion would buy today all the assets of HRT and would employ back all the staff tomorrow, you don't just manage to build a car - and make it drivable for F1- in just one month. This ain't the 70's garage days anymore - I doubt even Newey could manage such a major task, let alone some obscure investment team we know nothing about, except their name.

So, realistically, it's just dust in the wind.

:thumbup:
He stated at the end of 2012 Infiniti Red Bull Racing were already massively behind on the RB9 due to development for the 2012 title race. With about four months left (never mind that development had already started) he was worried it wouldn't be ready in time.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:39 pm 
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They don't need to build a new car. Last years is still legal.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
They don't need to build a new car. Last years is still legal.


Yup!

Although new brake pads may be a good investment :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Don't be silly Narains are barely bedded in.

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Last edited by Johnston on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Don't be silly Narains are barley bedded in.

( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:19 pm 
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Who's to say they need to run the HRT chassis?

Perhaps they already have a car built, but don't have an agreement with an engine supplier. Perhaps if they buy HRT they will be entitled to the Cosworth engine deal?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Warnzee wrote:
Who's to say they need to run the HRT chassis?

Perhaps they already have a car built, but don't have an agreement with an engine supplier. Perhaps if they buy HRT they will be entitled to the Cosworth engine deal?

You cant really build a car without a firm set of engine specs and its not a 5 minute job to 'tweak' the design to accompany a different engine, as Brawn will tell you.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Having a car built in the utmost secrecy, without even a hint or leaked info from any engineer, by an outsider nobody knows, a team (?) which did not pass any crash-tests for the chassis, did not secure an engine&gearbox deal, did not receive an entry grant, did not hire any drivers (although this can be still done)...now this is kind of an utopia. I can swallow the fact they would try to buy an old team and enter in the last minute in the race, that's far-fetched but still believable - but actually building a car without anybody knowing it, that's too much for me, sounds like James Bond...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Urgh, you people have no imagination sometimes.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:01 pm 
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DaveStebbins wrote:
FringeUK wrote:
Worse still, if they do have inexperienced mechanics and drivers - it could be a real disaster for the other competitors. Do we really want other bits falling off and hitting cars/drivers again?

Isn't this the same argument people had when we added three new teams a few years ago? If I recall, they all did OK. They weren't the quickest, of course, but wasn't it the more experienced, 'professional,' teams that had wheels falling off and such?


That isn't quite what I was meaning - I was meaning in relation to presumably starting a team from scratch (i.e. mechanics and engineers), without any preseason construction, preparation or testing, etc, due to the lateness of purchase and entry acceptance (and that's ignoring any financial issues!). Imagine if they were given entry right now, and could only muster say half of the former HRT 'gang' together in the next few weeks, and could only manage to physically get to the first race, without any testing or preparation at all!
For my money, if they could acquire mostly all the HRT 'experienced' staff, that would mean they could at least have some confidence of a 'start' - and as an imaginary team principal, I would have no objection to them starting in that situation.
But I fear reality is far different, they need to have a car (approved and tested - I think even the 2012 car would need crash testing again if test requirements are different?) and 'trained up' staff - which you cannot do without a car, some premises, or some form of test facility and a good deal of time - none of which I imagine are available to them!
just can't see it myself - sure, if someone like Bernie stuffed a portion of his great wealth into such a venture, it might just manage (especially with him pulling strings!) - but for a new team, struggling for finance, etc, it is not really likely to happen!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:09 pm 
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As I remember, one similar buyout of older Arrows chassis was in discussions couple of years ago, that didn't go so well either.

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Urgh, you people have no imagination sometimes.


Oh, but we do, we do. For instance, I've imagined Button WDC all through the season. Is it my fault reality just didn't follow my lead?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Whether they will or won't doesn't change the concept that it still makes sense for them to want to compete in 2013.

Not to me it doesn't. fairy cakes box cars, a team put together in less than a month, likely to have terrible pay drivers... Nothing can go right. Wait for 2014, get a half decent car, get some sponsors, get interest from half decent drivers and they'll stand half a chance. If they entered in 2013 they'd stand none, look at Super Aguri, they only survived longer thanks to customer cars from Honda.


If I was an investor and was told to wait till 2014, I would pull out, thats just me tho but a year is a long time. Better to be racing at the back than twiddling thumbs. No better testing than races either.

You cant have a half decent car without competitive track time, if they wait till 2014 the car will be worse than if they enter 2013.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Argh why can't you correct the spelling in the title! It's been almost a week!

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