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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Top one this year, bottom one last year. I know it's not quantifiable, but you can see the difference.

Just because there's a modesty panel there doesn't mean you will be able to see it like you would a dinner tray. I guess it'll be hollow underneath so it'll disintegrate under impact.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
You can tell it is a high nosed car because the top of the cockpit is level with the top of the wheels, like on the RB8 and other high nosed cars of 2012. The MP4-27's cockpit was below the height of the wheels by 75mm.


In one of the pics are the wheels touching the ground, so the suspension is bearing any weight. When it does, the car would automatically lower. By how much, I don't know, but it surely would. Right now the tires are just hanging there.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Side by side shot shows they have changed their design philosophy entirely at the front, that is a high nose case with modesty panel to my untrained eye. If Scarbs thinks so, that is good enough for me.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:42 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
You can tell it is a high nosed car because the top of the cockpit is level with the top of the wheels, like on the RB8 and other high nosed cars of 2012. The MP4-27's cockpit was below the height of the wheels by 75mm.


In one of the pics are the wheels touching the ground, so the suspension is bearing any weight. When it does, the car would automatically lower. By how much, I don't know, but it surely would. Right now the tires are just hanging there.

F1 suspension has very little travel, and that is probably a mock up rather than an actual car, so the suspension would be held in place anyway.

The side view of the car released by McLaren of the car on the ground clearly shows the top of the cockpit being level with the top of the tyres and the nose being much higher, to a degree it would necessitate a modesty panel to meet the regulations.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Looks like a winner to me. Very slick and aggressive.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
You can tell it is a high nosed car because the top of the cockpit is level with the top of the wheels, like on the RB8 and other high nosed cars of 2012. The MP4-27's cockpit was below the height of the wheels by 75mm.


In one of the pics are the wheels touching the ground, so the suspension is bearing any weight. When it does, the car would automatically lower. By how much, I don't know, but it surely would. Right now the tires are just hanging there.

F1 suspension has very little travel, and that is probably a mock up rather than an actual car, so the suspension would be held in place anyway.

The side view of the car released by McLaren of the car on the ground clearly shows the top of the cockpit being level with the top of the tyres and the nose being much higher, to a degree it would necessitate a modesty panel to meet the regulations.

:thumbup: Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:46 pm 
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I think it's a mock up nose. Where the cover panel and nose is one piece just for show. This won't fly with regulations in the first race so I'm expecting a two piece of the same outline by then.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
I think it's a mock up nose. Where the cover panel and nose is one piece just for show. This won't fly with regulations in the first race so I'm expecting a two piece of the same outline by then.


Just because that part can't be structural doesn't mean it has to be glued on. It just has to easily break apart when hit. I'm sure they could stick it on seamlessly.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:16 pm 
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If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Some more images for the non-beleavers:

Image

Image

and some pullrod suspension:

Image

(all from Ted Kravitz)


Last edited by Dalemac on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.

James Allison said that a vanity panel added extra weight and raised the center of gravity.

I'm not saying that argument makes sense (because a panel would be a few grams) but that was his justification.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.

James Allison said that a vanity panel added extra weight and raised the center of gravity.

I'm not saying that argument makes sense (because a panel would be a few grams) but that was his justification.



You would think though the panel would give a smoother air flow.

Quick mock up not perfect due to the angles but gives an idea.
Image

And damn I just realised I forgot to extend one line. :blush: :blush: You may all get a straight edge and a felt tip pen out. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Image

I think I won't notice a single difference until I see both side by side.


Button and Perez praying already. Not a good sign. :(


Button Whispering to Sergio: Sergio Please!!!! Where is that beauty called "The Lethal Marshmallow"?
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Sergio Thinking: AY DIOS MIO!!! Jessica will go ballistic with him if he gets caught.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
Ja'a wrote:
No sign of Telmex sponsor logo or Mexico. Anyone have a view from rear?


It had the "Tooned" logo at the back.

Image

The car is too far. But it does say "Tooned".


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.

James Allison said that a vanity panel added extra weight and raised the center of gravity.

I'm not saying that argument makes sense (because a panel would be a few grams) but that was his justification.



You would think though the panel would give a smoother air flow.

Quick mock up not perfect due to the angles but gives an idea.
Image

And damn I just realised I forgot to extend one line. :blush: :blush: You may all get a straight edge and a felt tip pen out. :lol:

I agree, however I expect teams to get quite inventive with the vanity panel as it has been quickly shoehorned into the regulations and consequently there will probably be a lot of loopholes they can exploit with it. This is probably why the Lotus launched without one.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:59 pm 
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I'm actually disappointed. The car looks as similar to last years car as the e21 does to its predecessor. I want to see something new and crazy. Maybe m expectations are to high. Lol

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:02 pm 
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daytona81 wrote:
I'm actually disappointed. The car looks as similar to last years car as the e21 does to its predecessor. I want to see something new and crazy. Maybe m expectations are to high. Lol



If it's true and it looks like it about the high chassis. Then the MP4-28is nothing like the MP4-27.

Red Bull exhaust, Driveshaft covered by the wishbone, High Chassis, Pull Rod front. Fairly big changes.

Just hope McLaren have bitten off more than they can chew by making so many changes and don't end up like Ferrari last year trying to understand the car.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
I'm actually disappointed. The car looks as similar to last years car as the e21 does to its predecessor. I want to see something new and crazy. Maybe m expectations are to high. Lol



If it's true and it looks like it about the high chassis. Then the MP4-28is nothing like the MP4-27.

Red Bull exhaust, Driveshaft covered by the wishbone, High Chassis, Pull Rod front. Fairly big changes.

Just hope McLaren have bitten off more than they can chew by making so many changes and don't end up like Ferrari last year trying to understand the car.


The difference being McLaren have a wind tunnel which actually works. The problems Ferrari had were they couldn't understand why the wind tunnel measurements and the on track results didn't match up.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:10 pm 
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So, here you are:

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Dalemac wrote:

The difference being McLaren have a wind tunnel which actually works. The problems Ferrari had were they couldn't understand why the wind tunnel measurements and the on track results didn't match up.



They also had hassles understanding the pull rod front and getting it setup.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:23 pm 
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I was very curious to see if McLaren's livery would change some with the changes since last year's team. So in that regard, its a bit of a disappointment, but a very little one.

But again, it looks incredible IMO (and I'm not really a fan of McLaren), very sleek, very fast. It will be interesting to compare more of the 2013 in the manner Johnston showed the 2012 McLaren and Red Bull to the 2013 McLaren profile. Of course, there are other views, like from straight on or above, but still interesting.

As far as the livery goes, it might be seeming a bit dated now that its been in place as long as it has... but I will say, seeing it under a clear blue sunny sky in Austin, it made a real impression on me with its chrome-like reflective quality. I don't think pictures or TV can do justice to just how it looks under those conditions.

Hopefully there will be enough tweeks to the other liveries up and down the grid that it won't look identical to 2012. But I can't say I'm very disappointed to see McLaren among the unchanged. (I've got to add, I really think the additional red on the Lotus is to leave the team a place holder if it can get its Honeywell sponsorship done sometime between now and the start of the season.)


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Dalemac wrote:

The difference being McLaren have a wind tunnel which actually works. The problems Ferrari had were they couldn't understand why the wind tunnel measurements and the on track results didn't match up.



They also had hassles understanding the pull rod front and getting it setup.


In my opinion that was a cover for their poor aero. They just wanted something to blame early on.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Has someone added the colouring on the front of the car on the top image to show the difference??

As it doesnt match the rest of the car at all

Or is it the paint job


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:24 pm 
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Dalemac wrote:
Some more images for the non-beleavers:

Image

Image

(all from Ted Kravitz)



I don't get why McLaren or any other F1 team would stick to the Step nose if they are going to use a vanity panel on there being that the most difficult aspect to building a great car is keeping weight down and making a step nose and then making a panel to sit over it just adds weight. there is absolutely no point to it and I think it has to be one of the absolute most moronic things ever done in F1. The very tip of the nose still has to adhere to a maximum height so why not just build the entire nose according to the outer most final shape and leave the stupid step out altogether?

I hope for 2014 they make some provisions for front end aero to limit the noses to sit much lower so we lose the hideous step altogether. There are other ways to harvest all this air into the bottom of the cars without resorting to raising the nose to 1200 feet. The noses from 2005 - 2008 were perfectly fine but some of the best looking F1 cars of all time were from the early 90's. This one isn't bad looking but Last years car was much better looking up front. Personally I think McLaren copped out on this raised nose trend of the day and should have used the legendary might of their empire to figure out a better way to squeeze more speed over last years car which was already the class of the field when it held together for Lewis.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:24 pm 
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The difference in COG of pullrod vs. push negates the addition of the high weight of the nose and modesty panel. For sure all teams with steps will test with and without the cover. What I find most interesting is that they have no turning vanes under their high nose - are they not going to? have they just not put them on yet? And the floor. The raised outboard sections are very new, are they going for a skirt-like effect? I'm kind of surprised actually that they'd debut the car with these. The back section makes no sense at all, and is probably just for the launch, so why show your new thing on the sides? Maybe they want to trick others :)

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:31 pm 
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The rules are changing for 2012 so we shouldn't see the step Incubus. The tip has to be much lower come 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.


The crash structure of the nose has to respect the height regulations. The modesty panel does not have to.
Image

There is an aerodynamic advantage with the modesty panel, less drag. We may see the modesty panel for high speed tracks, and without in such places as Monaco.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
The rules are changing for 2012 so we shouldn't see the step Incubus. The tip has to be much lower come 2014.

I know but I want them to bring it WAAAAAAAY down like they used to be, the way an F1 car should look.

I mean look at these front ends:

Image

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/antsphoto/tags/1991/

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Incubus you need to do some technical reading. The designers aren't morons. The step is there because they want to exploit the flow of air under the nose. If you lift the nose and chassis as high as the rules permit (which are two different heights, hence the step) you get as much air flow underneath as possible, and then you have the ability to manipulate that air into the sidepods, around them, and over them, to create more downforce and rear grip. You put big undercuts under the sidepods to match, and you have much greater control of where that air goes, which means you can use it over the different parts of the rear end to accomplish different goals, one of which is using downwash to help manipulate the flow of exhaust gasses.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.


The crash structure of the nose has to respect the height regulations. The modesty panel does not have to.
Image

There is an aerodynamic advantage with the modesty panel, less drag. We may see the modesty panel for high speed tracks, and without in such places as Monaco.



What I meant before was if the Line beside the mobil sticker was the modesty panel then the nose would be coming up to meet the panel. So it would raise the height of the nose above the regs. the modest panel would have to come down to meet the nose (Crash structure) so the line at the top couldn't be the panel (If you know what I mean)

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Aerodynamically and visually we a pretty much back to 2011 regulations then?

Modesty panel can be used to create that structure although underneath the real carbon structure will look completely different and rather blunt shaped to conform.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:57 pm 
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How an F1 car "should" look is whatever the current rules allow to make it the fastest, most reliable, easy to drive, and easy to work. If you want to see pretty cars, watch GT racing.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:58 pm 
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I agree, I just thought that reflection, or scratch or whatever was a sign. But it does not match up to where the modesty panel would meet the nose crash structure.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:04 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.


The crash structure of the nose has to respect the height regulations. The modesty panel does not have to.
Image

There is an aerodynamic advantage with the modesty panel, less drag. We may see the modesty panel for high speed tracks, and without in such places as Monaco.


That picture is a little misleading as the uprights for the front wing would mount to the actual nose structure and certainly not the modesty panel which would be a weak lightweight hollow structure.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Dalemac wrote:
The difference being McLaren have a wind tunnel which actually works. The problems Ferrari had were they couldn't understand why the wind tunnel measurements and the on track results didn't match up.


Quote:
A lot of this work was done in the Toyota wind tunnel, which they have had to share with Ferrari – so the correlation will be the same as Ferrari’s correlation. It is a very good tunnel. McLaren has been subletting its own tunnel to Marussia and is believe to be building a new one. But it will be interesting to compare this McLaren with the Ferrari launched tomorrow, as uniquely they were designed in the same tunnel


http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/f ... w-mclaren/

Ferrari and Macca sharing a wind tunnel.. This could get interesting :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Viagra - redesigning F1 noses since 2013


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Its a wonder Toyota has any time to work on its own TS03

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:27 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Incubus you need to do some technical reading. The designers aren't morons. The step is there because they want to exploit the flow of air under the nose. If you lift the nose and chassis as high as the rules permit (which are two different heights, hence the step) you get as much air flow underneath as possible, and then you have the ability to manipulate that air into the sidepods, around them, and over them, to create more downforce and rear grip. You put big undercuts under the sidepods to match, and you have much greater control of where that air goes, which means you can use it over the different parts of the rear end to accomplish different goals, one of which is using downwash to help manipulate the flow of exhaust gasses.

Don't need to read anymore as I already know all of this. The issue is that the upper has NOTHING to do with the lower and the noses can be designed so they are more aesthetically pleasing whilst not losing any of the potency of the raised front end. Additionally, the noses can be designed to sit lower and STILL harness all of that air for downforce.

I realize that F1 is a business of function over form but to what point? Additionally the step in the nose is contradictory to all things efficient when it comes to aero so some of the benefit of the raised nose is nullified by the air dam the step creates on top. With aero you want smooth flowing elements in order to minimize turbulence as turbulence leads to instability, which when it makes its way further down the line disrupts flow in many other areas. Either way I hope the 2014 changes means a return to beautiful cars that go fast because quite frankly no would enjoy watching this, even if it goes 500MPH flat out on every track:

Image

At least I know I won't.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:49 pm 
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the incubus wrote:
Don't need to read anymore as I already know all of this. The issue is that the upper has NOTHING to do with the lower and the noses can be designed so they are more aesthetically pleasing whilst not losing any of the potency of the raised front end. Additionally, the noses can be designed to sit lower and STILL harness all of that air for downforce.

I realize that F1 is a business of function over form but to what point? Additionally the step in the nose is contradictory to all things efficient when it comes to aero so some of the benefit of the raised nose is nullified by the air dam the step creates on top. With aero you want smooth flowing elements in order to minimize turbulence as turbulence leads to instability, which when it makes its way further down the line disrupts flow in many other areas. Either way I hope the 2014 changes means a return to beautiful cars that go fast because quite frankly no would enjoy watching this, even if it goes 500MPH flat out on every track:

Image

At least I know I won't.

If you understood how the high noses work, you wouldn't say any of those things. Low noses create a completely different path and mass of air at different velocity than high noses, so no, they can't do everything the same. The step in the nose isn't necessarily a huge hit to the flow over it. By manipulating the shape of the leading end of the chassis, you can control how the air stays attached to its flat top all the way to the cockpit, and making it a shorter distance helps too. The RB8 for example had that letter box slot, which gave the leading edge of the top of the step a curvature capable of helping to keep the air attached to the chassis. If any negatives of the step were not outweighed by the benefits, everyone would run low noses. Do you think they're all just purposely making the cars "ugly"? Why would they do that?

I enjoy watching how a team can manipulate its machinery to make it perform better for its drivers. I really don't care what shape it comes in, because to me, anything demonstrating the speed and cornering ability that F1 cars do is absolutely beautiful. Its the ability to do it, not the shape it does it in.

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