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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:49 pm 
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There was a topic asking for drivers who clinched their maiden victories being wet, now I wonder about the opposite case, drivers winning their last GP under the rain. I haven't done my homework so I can only remember Olivier Panis, I suppose I'm forgetting a lot of great drivers...

Olivier Panis - Monaco 1996.
Michael Schumacher - China 2006 (wet at the beginning and at the end of the race.)
Jean Alesi - Canada 1995 (slightly wet at the start)
Damon Hill - Belgium 1998


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Johnny Herbert
Thierry Boutson


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Felipe Massa - Brazil 2008


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Jenson Button won his first and his current last

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:34 am 
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Interesting post, to 'reverse' the order of wet race wins. Nice to read of drivers such as Panis and Boutsen getting some publicity!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:24 am 
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Felipe Massa - Brazil 2008


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:58 pm 
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I like to know who won the most races while wet?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnny Herbert
Thierry Boutson


It's "Boutsen" and his last victory was Hungary 1990, not a drop of rain that day. His other 2 victories were in the wet.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Drivers whose first and last victories were in the wet:

Michael Schumacher
Olivier Panis
Jenson Button *

*: Still racing.

Alesi doesn't really count as it was damp at best, right at the start. Notable for the *hilarious* incident between Herbert and Hakkinen on lap one.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Jean-Pièrre Beltoise. First/Last win in the rain in Monaco. His nickname was "godasses de plomb" if I recall correctly. "Leaden boots". :D

How odd; that makes two Frenchmen whose only win happened in Monaco. :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Jean-Pièrre Beltoise. First/Last win in the rain in Monaco. His nickname was "godasses de plomb" if I recall correctly. "Leaden boots". :D

How odd; that makes two Frenchmen whose only win happened in Monaco. :?


"Godasse de plomb" was Jarier's nickname...

Beltoise deserved a better record (and Jarier too, but that's another story...). And when you know he drove all along his career with a stiff left arm (after he was badly injured in a sport cars race in the early 60's), his win in Monaco looks even greater.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:09 am 
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Nico Rosberg?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:13 am 
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xECKSx58 wrote:
Nico Rosberg?


Pretty sure China 2012 was bone dry.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:31 am 
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David Coulthard. Oz 03 started out damp, he switched to slicks at the right moment.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:33 am 
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Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


As a total probably Schumacher due to him having double wins of anybody else. As percentage of total wins, once you discount the one or two race wonders probably Jenson Button of drivers who won more than 5 races percentage that were wet.

Total -15 wins, 8 dry, 7 wet = 54%
Mclaren years - 8 wins, 3 dry, 5 wet = 63%

Hungary 2006 - wet

Australia 2009 - dry
Malaysia 2009 - wet
Bahrain 2009 - dry
Spain 2009 - dry
Monaco 2009 - dry
Turkey 2009 dry


Australia 2010 - wet
China 2010 - wet

Canada 2011 - wet
Hungary 2011 - wet
Japan 2011 - dry

Australia 2012 - dry
Spa 2012 - dry
Brazil 2012 - wet

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:06 am 
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Volantary wrote:
xECKSx58 wrote:
Nico Rosberg?


Pretty sure China 2012 was bone dry.

That's why I had the ?
I remembered it being wet for at least part of the race, but I'm usually wrong lol


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:11 am 
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Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


Ayrton Senna was the best I ever saw in the rain. When it rained, even a small amount, he usually won the race. Here are 10 of his victories on a wet track... if you include the 1991 Brazilian Grand Prix (which I haven't) then that makes it 11 out of 41 victories..more than 25%...

1985 Portuguese Grand Prix
1985 Belgian Grand Prix
1988 British Grand Prix
1988 German Grand Prix
(1988 Japanese Grand Prix - Cool and mainly dry, rained towards the end)
1989 Belgian Grand Prix
1990 Canadian Grand Prix (wet track at start, then damp)
1991 San Marino Grand Prix (track was wet at start)
1993 Brazilian Grand Prix
1993 European Grand Prix (the famous Donington victory)

He could have also won in Canada 89 and Monaco 84, both wet races (mechanical retirement while leading and Jacky Ickx respectively)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:20 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF8hsSsiQVA

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:15 am 
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purchville wrote:
Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


Ayrton Senna was the best I ever saw in the rain. When it rained, even a small amount, he usually won the race. Here are 10 of his victories on a wet track... if you include the 1991 Brazilian Grand Prix (which I haven't) then that makes it 11 out of 41 victories..more than 25%...

1985 Portuguese Grand Prix
1985 Belgian Grand Prix
1988 British Grand Prix
1988 German Grand Prix
(1988 Japanese Grand Prix - Cool and mainly dry, rained towards the end)
1989 Belgian Grand Prix
1990 Canadian Grand Prix (wet track at start, then damp)
1991 San Marino Grand Prix (track was wet at start)
1993 Brazilian Grand Prix
1993 European Grand Prix (the famous Donington victory)

He could have also won in Canada 89 and Monaco 84, both wet races (mechanical retirement while leading and Jacky Ickx respectively)


He was leading Australia 1989 comfortably too until colliding with backmarker Brundle I think.

I agree that Senna was unmatchable on a wet track not even by Schumacher.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Amon wrote:
purchville wrote:
Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


Ayrton Senna was the best I ever saw in the rain. When it rained, even a small amount, he usually won the race. Here are 10 of his victories on a wet track... if you include the 1991 Brazilian Grand Prix (which I haven't) then that makes it 11 out of 41 victories..more than 25%...

1985 Portuguese Grand Prix
1985 Belgian Grand Prix
1988 British Grand Prix
1988 German Grand Prix
(1988 Japanese Grand Prix - Cool and mainly dry, rained towards the end)
1989 Belgian Grand Prix
1990 Canadian Grand Prix (wet track at start, then damp)
1991 San Marino Grand Prix (track was wet at start)
1993 Brazilian Grand Prix
1993 European Grand Prix (the famous Donington victory)

He could have also won in Canada 89 and Monaco 84, both wet races (mechanical retirement while leading and Jacky Ickx respectively)


He was leading Australia 1989 comfortably too until colliding with backmarker Brundle I think.

I agree that Senna was unmatchable on a wet track not even by Schumacher.


Yep. I was at that 1989 race in Adelaide and he had like a 20+ sec lead after 3 laps...head and shoulders above anyone else (ever).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AFM3Xx6Vo

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jean-Pièrre Beltoise. First/Last win in the rain in Monaco. His nickname was "godasses de plomb" if I recall correctly. "Leaden boots". :D

How odd; that makes two Frenchmen whose only win happened in Monaco. :?


"Godasse de plomb" was Jarier's nickname...

Beltoise deserved a better record (and Jarier too, but that's another story...). And when you know he drove all along his career with a stiff left arm (after he was badly injured in a sport cars race in the early 60's), his win in Monaco looks even greater.

Thanks for the correction; it makes sense, one godasse is enough. :D

purchville wrote:
I was at that 1989 race in Adelaide and he had like a 20+ sec lead after 3 laps...head and shoulders above anyone else (ever).

Yes, and nearly head and shoulders into the other chap's cockpit. Simply overdoing it, just as Schumacher was at Francorchamps in 1998. And yet, I agree, Senna usually was better in the rain.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Technically, I would say Massa won his last race in the wet at Interlagos in 2008.

It was a mix and it was still wet at the end of the race.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:06 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Jean-Pièrre Beltoise. First/Last win in the rain in Monaco. His nickname was "godasses de plomb" if I recall correctly. "Leaden boots". :D

How odd; that makes two Frenchmen whose only win happened in Monaco. :?



The funniest case of a driver winning his only GP on wet conditions was Vittorio Brambilla's win at Zeltweg in '75. He spun and crashed just after having crossed the line.

IIRC, another driver than won his last and only race on the wet around that time was Gunnar Nilsson (Belgium '77).


EDIT: I've seen there already was a reference to Brambilla at the "first win on the wet" thread, sorry...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:52 pm 
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As a team Jordan won their first and last races in the wet, SPA 98 & Brazil 03

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Amon wrote:
purchville wrote:
Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


Ayrton Senna was the best I ever saw in the rain. When it rained, even a small amount, he usually won the race. Here are 10 of his victories on a wet track... if you include the 1991 Brazilian Grand Prix (which I haven't) then that makes it 11 out of 41 victories..more than 25%...

1985 Portuguese Grand Prix
1985 Belgian Grand Prix
1988 British Grand Prix
1988 German Grand Prix
(1988 Japanese Grand Prix - Cool and mainly dry, rained towards the end)
1989 Belgian Grand Prix
1990 Canadian Grand Prix (wet track at start, then damp)
1991 San Marino Grand Prix (track was wet at start)
1993 Brazilian Grand Prix
1993 European Grand Prix (the famous Donington victory)

He could have also won in Canada 89 and Monaco 84, both wet races (mechanical retirement while leading and Jacky Ickx respectively)


He was leading Australia 1989 comfortably too until colliding with backmarker Brundle I think.

I agree that Senna was unmatchable on a wet track not even by Schumacher.


Whether Senna is better than Schumacher in the rain is debatable! Senna was absolutely outstanding in the rain! Schumacher was/is absolutely outstanding in the rain!

You could compile a similar list for Schumacher's wet weather drives. Spa 98 before the crash, Silverstone 98, Silverstone '02 Suzuka 95, Monaco 97, Spa 97, China 06, Spa 92, 95, Spain 96, Nurb '00, Indy '03 etc.

It's not really a debate that there's much point in having. They were both pre-eminent.

Fiki wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jean-Pièrre Beltoise. First/Last win in the rain in Monaco. His nickname was "godasses de plomb" if I recall correctly. "Leaden boots". :D

How odd; that makes two Frenchmen whose only win happened in Monaco. :?


"Godasse de plomb" was Jarier's nickname...

Beltoise deserved a better record (and Jarier too, but that's another story...). And when you know he drove all along his career with a stiff left arm (after he was badly injured in a sport cars race in the early 60's), his win in Monaco looks even greater.

Thanks for the correction; it makes sense, one godasse is enough. :D

purchville wrote:
I was at that 1989 race in Adelaide and he had like a 20+ sec lead after 3 laps...head and shoulders above anyone else (ever).

Yes, and nearly head and shoulders into the other chap's cockpit. Simply overdoing it, just as Schumacher was at Francorchamps in 1998. And yet, I agree, Senna usually was better in the rain.


Bollocks, Schumi wasn't overdoing it at Spa 1998. He simply didn't see Coulthard, even though he (Schumi) slowed slightly. These things happen in the rain. Can't speak for Senna in 1989 but Schumi was doing just fine in Spa 1998.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:16 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


As a total probably Schumacher due to him having double wins of anybody else. As percentage of total wins, once you discount the one or two race wonders probably Jenson Button of drivers who won more than 5 races percentage that were wet.

Total -15 wins, 8 dry, 7 wet = 54%
Mclaren years - 8 wins, 3 dry, 5 wet = 63%

Hungary 2006 - wet

Australia 2009 - dry
Malaysia 2009 - wet
Bahrain 2009 - dry
Spain 2009 - dry
Monaco 2009 - dry
Turkey 2009 dry


Australia 2010 - wet
China 2010 - wet

Canada 2011 - wet
Hungary 2011 - wet
Japan 2011 - dry

Australia 2012 - dry
Spa 2012 - dry
Brazil 2012 - wet


Button is certainly very good in the wet, although I think of him more as someone who is good on dry tyres in damp conditions, more than completely wet conditions. Hamilton I would say is better in full wet conditions.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:06 pm 
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purchville wrote:
Amon wrote:
purchville wrote:
Placid wrote:
I like to know who won the most races while wet?


Ayrton Senna was the best I ever saw in the rain. When it rained, even a small amount, he usually won the race. Here are 10 of his victories on a wet track... if you include the 1991 Brazilian Grand Prix (which I haven't) then that makes it 11 out of 41 victories..more than 25%...

1985 Portuguese Grand Prix
1985 Belgian Grand Prix
1988 British Grand Prix
1988 German Grand Prix
(1988 Japanese Grand Prix - Cool and mainly dry, rained towards the end)
1989 Belgian Grand Prix
1990 Canadian Grand Prix (wet track at start, then damp)
1991 San Marino Grand Prix (track was wet at start)
1993 Brazilian Grand Prix
1993 European Grand Prix (the famous Donington victory)

He could have also won in Canada 89 and Monaco 84, both wet races (mechanical retirement while leading and Jacky Ickx respectively)


He was leading Australia 1989 comfortably too until colliding with backmarker Brundle I think.

I agree that Senna was unmatchable on a wet track not even by Schumacher.


Yep. I was at that 1989 race in Adelaide and he had like a 20+ sec lead after 3 laps...head and shoulders above anyone else (ever).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AFM3Xx6Vo


To be fair, the 20+ sec lead was as much down to the Minardi of Martini as Senna's wet weather genius. I think the gap largely stabilised once the Williams' got past IIRC.

On the Senna/Schumacher debate, both were mesmeric in the wet and can offer a long list of accomplishments. If one restricts the comparisons to the races they drove together when it was raining then perhaps some conclusions can be drawn.

In 1991 Spain and Adelaide were wet and Schumacher was the fastest man on track in both under wet conditions (Spain dried up and at Adelaide Schumacher collided with Alesi after clipping the back of Berger on the back straight). But Schumacher was on the Pirellis and Senna the Goodyears, so it is difficult to compare.

In 1993 the first four races were wet but Senna had traction control and Schumacher didn't - so any comparison is lost. It also rained at Suzuka but Schumacher had already retired by the time the water came.

Spa 1992 was wet but each tried different strategies (Senna trying to brave it on dry tyres and Schumacher going with the crowd on the wets), so again it is difficult to draw any conclusions.

Spain 1992 perhaps provides the best clue. With comparable machinery, a largely wet race and the same tyres it was an impressive duel between the two. Senna ultimately threw it off the road but it was tight until then. I would strongly suggest that anyone who has not seen the 1992 Spanish Grand Prix watches it (it is swmming around the internet somewhere) - the only chance we ever got to see the two regenmeisters go up against one another with no real mitigating factors.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:14 am 
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Porsan wrote:
IIRC, another driver than won his last and only race on the wet around that time was Gunnar Nilsson (Belgium '77).

Why didn't I think of that, I saw that race live.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:46 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Jean-Pièrre Beltoise. First/Last win in the rain in Monaco. His nickname was "godasses de plomb" if I recall correctly. "Leaden boots". :D

How odd; that makes two Frenchmen whose only win happened in Monaco. :?


"Godasse de plomb" was Jarier's nickname...

Beltoise deserved a better record (and Jarier too, but that's another story...). And when you know he drove all along his career with a stiff left arm (after he was badly injured in a sport cars race in the early 60's), his win in Monaco looks even greater.

Thanks for the correction; it makes sense, one godasse is enough. :D


As long it's not on the brake pedal...

Jarier got this nickname because he was (very) fast and looked like being fearless, but in my opinion he deserved a better one. This one tells nothing about his precise and fine driving.

Jarier is certainly one of the greatest "waste" of F1 racing history. Even more than Amon, whose record he emulated, never winning one GP though leading a lot of them. Villeneuve's first win at Canada was mentioned in the "wet race first win" thread, as "making history"... But the true hero of this race was Jarier. And to think that Jarier had a contract to drive a Ferrari for the 1974 season, but March (yes Mosley...) didn't let him go, and finally didn't renew his contract, for financial reasons. He ended driving for Shadow...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Bollocks, Schumi wasn't overdoing it at Spa 1998. He simply didn't see Coulthard, even though he (Schumi) slowed slightly. These things happen in the rain. Can't speak for Senna in 1989 but Schumi was doing just fine in Spa 1998.
When you have the kind of time cushion that both Senna and Schumacher had, and you fail to use the safety that cushion can provide, you can't just say the driver simply didn't see the cars he was lapping. I believe I still have a copy of Autosport from 1998, in which an English former Ferrari driver - Peter Collins? - said that what Schumacher did was very unwise. With which I can only agree.

Though it's hard to know what level of awareness Senna had vis-à-vis Brundle, we know that Schumacher was aware of Coulthard's position, plus the fact that he was being informed about the coming overtake. Therefore, Schumacher's error was possibly more serious than Senna's. But both drivers failed to use all the information and potential at their disposal and threw a very valuable win away.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:09 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Bollocks, Schumi wasn't overdoing it at Spa 1998. He simply didn't see Coulthard, even though he (Schumi) slowed slightly. These things happen in the rain. Can't speak for Senna in 1989 but Schumi was doing just fine in Spa 1998.
When you have the kind of time cushion that both Senna and Schumacher had, and you fail to use the safety that cushion can provide, you can't just say the driver simply didn't see the cars he was lapping. I believe I still have a copy of Autosport from 1998, in which an English former Ferrari driver - Peter Collins? - said that what Schumacher did was very unwise. With which I can only agree.

Though it's hard to know what level of awareness Senna had vis-à-vis Brundle, we know that Schumacher was aware of Coulthard's position, plus the fact that he was being informed about the coming overtake. Therefore, Schumacher's error was possibly more serious than Senna's. But both drivers failed to use all the information and potential at their disposal and threw a very valuable win away.


And in a completely surprising move, Fiki puts the blame for the crash at Spa 1998 on Schumacher. A crash which Coulthard accepted responsibility for.

Shocking! :]


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:33 pm 
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Anupam wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Bollocks, Schumi wasn't overdoing it at Spa 1998. He simply didn't see Coulthard, even though he (Schumi) slowed slightly. These things happen in the rain. Can't speak for Senna in 1989 but Schumi was doing just fine in Spa 1998.
When you have the kind of time cushion that both Senna and Schumacher had, and you fail to use the safety that cushion can provide, you can't just say the driver simply didn't see the cars he was lapping. I believe I still have a copy of Autosport from 1998, in which an English former Ferrari driver - Peter Collins? - said that what Schumacher did was very unwise. With which I can only agree.

Though it's hard to know what level of awareness Senna had vis-à-vis Brundle, we know that Schumacher was aware of Coulthard's position, plus the fact that he was being informed about the coming overtake. Therefore, Schumacher's error was possibly more serious than Senna's. But both drivers failed to use all the information and potential at their disposal and threw a very valuable win away.


And in a completely surprising move, Fiki puts the blame for the crash at Spa 1998 on Schumacher. A crash which Coulthard accepted responsibility for.

Shocking! :]
That wasn't the subject of this discussion, however, you are right about where I think the responsibility lies. And I maintain that it helps one's understanding of such situations if a driver's words aren't twisted into something that wasn't said.

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