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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:55 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Amon wrote:
I really feel for Webber. Before he was partnered with Vettel he always outscored his teammates (except than for Heidfeld think they were equal in points when Heifdeld got injured). Imagine if it had been an lesser driver than Vettel he could have been multiple champ.
Webber is the oldest driver on the grid now. If he retires it would become Kimi I think.

I don't know about that, RB could have found some other German to develop their car around. Vettel is good but he is preferred driver in the best team, I'm not convinced that a Rosberg or a Hulkenberg couldn't do a similar job as RB's No.1 driver with all the resources behind them.


Amon specifically said lesser driver and your retort is that there are other German drivers that are likely equal. Is your point that there are no lesser drivers than Vettel in the entire world that Mark might have a chance against?

You seem to have an utterly low opinion of Mark.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:01 am 
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Webber has the best job in the world and he relishes a challenge,i dont think he lacks motivation.

He's never put a full campaign together before always lacking a champions consistency,that should be motivation enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:05 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Amon wrote:
I really feel for Webber. Before he was partnered with Vettel he always outscored his teammates (except than for Heidfeld think they were equal in points when Heifdeld got injured). Imagine if it had been an lesser driver than Vettel he could have been multiple champ.
Webber is the oldest driver on the grid now. If he retires it would become Kimi I think.

I don't know about that, RB could have found some other German to develop their car around. Vettel is good but he is preferred driver in the best team, I'm not convinced that a Rosberg or a Hulkenberg couldn't do a similar job as RB's No.1 driver with all the resources behind them.


Amon specifically said lesser driver and your retort is that there are other German drivers that are likely equal. Is your point that there are no lesser drivers than Vettel in the entire world that Mark might have a chance against?

You seem to have an utterly low opinion of Mark.


Ah, I see what has happened. I was replying to Formula1Fan's insinuation that Red Bull could find any German to develop their car around and that they would achieve the same success as Vettel. He or she had highlighted Amon's sentence in bold and I quoted the exchange, the bold edit remained and this has caused a misunderstanding. I've fixed that now.

That aside, did you see my sentence where I wrote that Webber is a good driver? I think you exaggerated in your reply about how I view Webber.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:39 pm 
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This may be interesting. STR drivers in the running for Webber's seat.

http://www.flagworld.com/news/2013/02/0 ... bers-seat/


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:48 pm 
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Placid wrote:
This may be interesting. STR drivers in the running for Webber's seat.

http://www.flagworld.com/news/2013/02/0 ... bers-seat/


Well that's hardly a revelation. That's what they're there for!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Placid wrote:
This may be interesting. STR drivers in the running for Webber's seat.

http://www.flagworld.com/news/2013/02/0 ... bers-seat/


So Vergne saying IF one of them does well AND Webber moves out, then MAYBE one of them could get a place at RBR gets translated into a headline saying "Toro Rosso duo in running for Webber’s seat" with a subtitle "Jean-Eric Vergne has revealed he is still in the running..."?

Yeah, nice journalism there.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:04 am 
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Remember the quotes when Vergne would mouth of re Webber about what a lousy job he did in the Red Bull only to not make Q2 multiple times last year. When Webber feels these guys are better than him then he will retire otherwise why not continue? He did a pretty decent job until the second half of the year, if he keeps that up over a whole season then I don't see why he wouldn't feel motivated to still be in F1.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:56 am 
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AFCTUJacko wrote:
I get the impression he enjoys driving the car but that's it. He doesn't even remotely enjoy the inter team politics, PR stuff, interviews etc......a bit like Kimi. And like Kimi he isn't afraid of allowing that to come across.

If he wanted to walk away he would have done so by now.


Agree with this. Webber said one of the things he loves about Red Bull is the less PR stuff he has to do due to RedBull actually owning the team so theres no need to go out all the time to impress sponsors.

Webber is a racer. He will quit when he knows hes not good enough

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:01 pm 
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SWAN wrote:
Obviously no one but him really knows...

But its interesting watching Webber body language during the RB9 launch and the Red Bull story video....Ive also heard him talking before about the grind of the season and how its a real slog by the end. He is a pretty straight forward guy and he doesnt like the faff and the glitz (he mentioned re Monaco)...

Obviously as a racing driver its pretty hard to walk away from Red Bull. But being beaten by Seb so frequently must take a big toll - as Seb is now so smugly embraced by RB and Helmut.

I like Mark and its sad to see a man in that situation. Maybe its not so bad. Still - he looks pretty dejected in interviews and bored of it all...

I too very much like Mark Webber...
He seems one of the few good and honest people in Formula 1. It's sad he is not as a good racing driver, Very good mind you but not top tier. I think he has confidence issues. Always cocks up his starts in races after good qualifying position as well I noticed he seemed to lack confidence after he was ahead in the Constructors this year. I sadly must agree with helmut when he said he lacks confidence - _ -...
I would very much like to see a stronger webber in 2013. I fear its not his last year or two in Formula one given his age : (...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:27 pm 
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mds wrote:
DrG wrote:
Really, you think that someone in a management position within a drivers team openly criticising him is ok. All I can say is thank God I don't work for you. Being 2IC in my company, the owner & I understand that, while we may say certain things to each other that may be negative about someone during our weekly meetings, they remain that, private, just between us. Once that is off our chests we then try to come up with a way we can help that person & end up with a positive result for everyone concerned :-P


It works both ways, no? The whole "not bad for a #2 driver" in my view was also not to be misunderstood and not the kind of things I'd expect from an employee to speak for the world (or, to suit your analogy, for my customers/rivals/...) to hear.

If Mark feels he can speak his mind and do it in that kind of ways, he'll have to accept others doing so.
I keep falling back at what Marko actually said, and I don't think it was unappropriate.

If an employee says something that you don't like or is inappropiate then you quietly pull them aside & tell them that it is not ok. What you don't do is tit for tat. That is just bad management. On the other hand, I think that Red Bull management (& I mean Mateschitz) have a strategy of all publicity is good publicity otherwise he would have already reined Marco in & made it clear to Mark that certain things are not acceptable. After all, Red Bull are a soft drink company who are extremely successful & they want to get their name out there to make even more sales of their product. BTW, that's not a criticism. I like the way that they have sponsored so many different sports etc & they have been pretty successful at it. In fact, this year, they will be the main sponsor of my favourite V8 Supercar team, TripleEight Racing, who were previously sponsored by Vodafone.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:53 pm 
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I agree with most of your reply if we're talking about things that are unappropriate to say. However:
Quote:
I keep falling back at what Marko actually said, and I don't think it was unappropriate.


Like I said: Mark is an honest guy and wants to say it like it is, and should be able to as long as he doesn't cross a line (which he did, imo). But then the same rules should apply for Marko.

And truth be told: RBR did handle the "not bad for a #2 driver"-aftermath pretty discrete, as far as I remember.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
I agree with most of your reply if we're talking about things that are unappropriate to say. However:
Quote:
I keep falling back at what Marko actually said, and I don't think it was unappropriate.


Like I said: Mark is an honest guy and wants to say it like it is, and should be able to as long as he doesn't cross a line (which he did, imo). But then the same rules should apply for Marko.

And truth be told: RBR did handle the "not bad for a #2 driver"-aftermath pretty discrete, as far as I remember.


You're ignoring the fact that while Mark is a driver for the team, Marko is essentially, one of the bosses, and in saying that is showing extremely bad form by doing what he's done.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:18 pm 
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I'm not forgetting anything. The team pays him, he drives for the team. It's two ways, not one.

I really, really don't get it. Everybody applauds Mark for telling it how it is, even if it's embarrassing for his employer, but when his employer speaks his mind then that's unacceptable, even if he says something we can all see for ourselves?

I simply do not agree.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
I'm not forgetting anything. The team pays him, he drives for the team. It's two ways, not one.

I really, really don't get it. Everybody applauds Mark for telling it how it is, even if it's embarrassing for his employer, but when his employer speaks his mind then that's unacceptable, even if he says something we can all see for ourselves?

I simply do not agree.


When has Mark criticised the team? He's replied to a few of Marko's barbs over the years, but that has been strictly relating to Marko (such as "I'm not part of his agenda")

"Not bad for a No.2" is as bad as it gets, and I think most of us can understand what drew him to make that public.

Honestly I think given how outspoken a person Mark is, he's done a surprisingly good job of keeping a lid on it given how much the team clearly favours SV, and in the face of a constant barrage of nasty comments from Marko. No other driver on the grid has had to deal with a sustained attack like this from within his own team. Drivers need to be built up by their team in the public eye (as RBR do so very much with SV to the point of coming across as utter sycophants) not torn down. Can't be great for your confidence having that stuff said.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:57 pm 
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going_the_distance wrote:
When has Mark criticised the team?


=>

Quote:
"Not bad for a No.2" is as bad as it gets


I didn't say "criticise", I said "embarrass". Which is what this is.

Quote:
No other driver on the grid has had to deal with a sustained attack like this from within his own team.


Don't be vague and say things like "a sustained attack". Explain what Marko has said about Mark that is not acceptable.

Quote:
Can't be great for your confidence having that stuff said.


Actually I believe Marko's comments fuel Webbers fighting spirit, if anything.


Last note about the team "clearly supporting SV": it's not like Mark doesn't get a shot at wins and titles, is disallowed to finish in front of SV, or gets inferior parts. If he feels he doesn't get enough support within RBR, he would have been gone already. Don't mix up Marko's agenda with RBR's.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Quote:
Don't be vague and say things like "a sustained attack". Explain what Marko has said about Mark that is not acceptable.


I genuinely don't have the stamina to compile this list, it's simply too long. If you don't know that, you haven't been following that relationship over the years. I wasn't being vague, just lazy.

Though I will relate one comment which I find amazing. It's not a personal attack on Mark's ability or something he did that was not as desired, which is the norm, but a racing related comment published in Autosport magazine a couple of years ago. When Mark got within a few hundredths of Vettel in qualifying at Suzuka 2010 he was overheard being chewed out by Helmut Marko for getting "far too close" to SV's time. The parity thing is utter BS.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Will you enjoy being Vettel lapdog?, and when your are doing better than him, the team basically show you the middle finger and throw all the brain power into Vettel's side, will you like that?.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:24 pm 
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mds wrote:
going_the_distance wrote:
Can't be great for your confidence having that stuff said.


Actually I believe Marko's comments fuel Webbers fighting spirit, if anything.


That's being subjective.
The point is that Mark does not go out of his way to criticise Marko, or anyone else in the team. Anytime that you hear Mark mention something about Marko, it is in response to something that he may have said. Mark's had his front wing taken, he's been said to lack confidence relative to Vettel, he's been said to be able to beat Vettel at only 2 tracks, and has also been said to be lacking in the vicinity of nearly half a second per lap relative to Vettel. This is all (bar the wing row) from Marko's mouth.

The fact of the matter is that Marko really shouldn't be talking to the media about one of his drivers in a negative way. You could almost say that he talks as if he no longer wants Mark in the team, which is where all the outcry is derived from, coming from Mark's fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:40 am 
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mds wrote:
going_the_distance wrote:
When has Mark criticised the team?


=>

Quote:
"Not bad for a No.2" is as bad as it gets


I didn't say "criticise", I said "embarrass". Which is what this is.

Quote:
No other driver on the grid has had to deal with a sustained attack like this from within his own team.


Don't be vague and say things like "a sustained attack". Explain what Marko has said about Mark that is not acceptable.

Quote:
Can't be great for your confidence having that stuff said.


Actually I believe Marko's comments fuel Webbers fighting spirit, if anything.


Last note about the team "clearly supporting SV": it's not like Mark doesn't get a shot at wins and titles, is disallowed to finish in front of SV, or gets inferior parts. If he feels he doesn't get enough support within RBR, he would have been gone already. Don't mix up Marko's agenda with RBR's.


This is a very important distinction. Marko took a lot of criticism for how he handled the 2010 Turkish GP and the collision between Vettel and Webber. His comments though, and the comments of Horner, were quite different. Horner was very balanced and at pains to emphasise working together and not blame any one driver-at least in public. The media preferred to ignore that though and many people elected to ignore that because it didn't fit in with the favouritism theories.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:53 am 
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Quote:
Don't be vague and say things like "a sustained attack". Explain what Marko has said about Mark that is not acceptable.

It's link time, again:
http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 98236.html
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/187184/1/m ... ssure.html

Unless these sites have severely misquoted Helmut Marko, I would definitely consider this as a direct and sustained attack.

Quote:
If he feels he doesn't get enough support within RBR, he would have been gone already.

Gone where? even as no 2 RBR driver, he's liable to get a better car than a no 1 driver in Williams, or Sauber, or whatever midfield team out there. His only on-par choices, quality-wise, are either at Ferrari (where he would be again a no 2, as long as Alonso stays there) or at McLaren - but they've already got one mature driver and clearly they weren't interested in another one, since they signed Perez.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:23 am 
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Mark would have won the title in 2010 and 2011 if he got the slight biased Vettel has enjoyed and the team all behind him as a number 1. It is all geared toward Vettel, but having said that Vettel is the better driver so he fully deserves his 3 WDCs.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:54 am 
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ATM2 wrote:


We were already discussing about the second one - and my opinion is that Mark should be able to handle that if he also speaks his mind whenever he wants. Like I said, I don't see wrong in that interview.

And in the first link... come on:

Quote:
"Mark knows what we expect of him," Marko told Sport Bild. "For four years, Vettel and Webber have driven together in our team. Sebastian was runner-up once and champion three times. The statistic speaks for itself. There is no reason to think the balance of power will change."


That doesn't even come near to being an attack. Also notice how article title and article content relate to each other.

Quote:
Gone where? even as no 2 RBR driver, he's liable to get a better car than a no 1 driver in Williams, or Sauber, or whatever midfield team out there. His only on-par choices, quality-wise, are either at Ferrari (where he would be again a no 2, as long as Alonso stays there) or at McLaren - but they've already got one mature driver and clearly they weren't interested in another one, since they signed Perez.


Yes, and? Would you keep working for an employer who treats you like dirt?

Mark gets his shots at RBR, he can win, he can finish in front of Vettel and I see no reason why he couldn't become WDC if he performs better than SV all year. But he doesn't.


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