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dizlexik
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari
Red Bull
McLaren


Renault




Brawn

The top three are very close - Ferrari and Red Bull dominated 2001-2004 and 2009-2012 respectively, however McLaren have been the most consistent challenger against the respective winner.

Brawn gets fifth place because of the historical significance of winning the championship in their maiden year and on a shoestring operating budget - even if they did start the year with the most expensive F1 car in the history of the sport thanks for Hondas billions.

Ferrari was much better than McLaren or Red Bull. Ferrari won 5 more titles than Red Bull. Ferrari scored 54.80% of all possible points to score as a one team during this century. McLaren 40.85% (or 42.97% if you add 2007 points). Red Bull 34.48 as a Red Bull and 24.29% as a team since 2001. Renault 26.96% in 2002-2011 as Renault and 25.71% since 2001. BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes makes top 5, close to Williams. 18.14% vs 17.59 for Williams. Brawn was one year wonder so I wouldn't include it as a separate entity. Brawn stats are close to what Ferrari have done since 2001 with 56.21%. To see my list look above at my previous post.

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BrazilLastCorner2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:23 pm 
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RaisinChips wrote:
McLaren is the major disappointment of the past 12 seasons. When they've been fast they've usually been unreliable, and when reliable they've been comparatively slow. Only one drivers' title in 08 and they came close in 00, 03, 05, 07, 10. And it's still hard to believe they managed to throw the 1999 constructors' title away.


Agree with this!

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Alienturnedhuman
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:23 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari
Red Bull
McLaren


Renault




Brawn

The top three are very close - Ferrari and Red Bull dominated 2001-2004 and 2009-2012 respectively, however McLaren have been the most consistent challenger against the respective winner.

Brawn gets fifth place because of the historical significance of winning the championship in their maiden year and on a shoestring operating budget - even if they did start the year with the most expensive F1 car in the history of the sport thanks for Hondas billions.

Ferrari was much better than McLaren or Red Bull. Ferrari won 5 more titles than Red Bull. Ferrari scored 54.80% of all possible points to score as a one team during this century. McLaren 40.85% (or 42.97% if you add 2007 points). Red Bull 34.48 as a Red Bull and 24.29% as a team since 2001. Renault 26.96% in 2002-2011 as Renault and 25.71% since 2001. BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes makes top 5, close to Williams. 18.14% vs 17.59 for Williams. Brawn was one year wonder so I wouldn't include it as a separate entity. Brawn stats are close to what Ferrari have done since 2001 with 56.21%. To see my list look above at my previous post.

Yes, and that's why I put Ferrari at the top of the list. However the difference between that trio and the rest of the field is bigger than the differences between them.

However, it is impossible for a team to exert Ferrari's dominance in the current climate. Ferrari's dominance came about due to unrestricted testing, budgets, and essentially running bespoke Bridgestone tyres. Until Michelin started developing their tyres for Renault (coupled with a major change in tyre regs for 2005) it was not a level playing field.

Today teams run a much tighter budget, there is less testing and we have hit a development ceiling. In my mind, the fact Red Bull have managed to dominate the last 4 seasons is a greater achievement than the dominance of Ferrari from 2001 - 2004. While it may not have been as 'dominating' in terms of the stats it was harder to achieve.

I am in total agreement about Brawn being a one hit wonder under special circumstances - and we certainly agreed a lot on this issue in the Brawn out Lowe in thread - however even though Brawn only managed it due to a very special set of circumstances, none the less he did managed to deliver a championship win on a shoestring operating budget against the emergent Newey Red Bull lineage. Over the course of the season the RB5 was a faster car than the Brawn car (it was almost as fast BEFORE it had a double diffuser), but it was thanks to flawlessly performing when the car was at its strongest followed by carefully managing the second half of the season that enabled them to clinch it.
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Mr-E
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:57 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
My order a bit different: what have you done for me lately ranking:

Red Bull
Braun
McLaren
Ferrari
Renault


:lol:

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dizlexik
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:00 am 
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Posts: 3215
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari
Red Bull
McLaren


Renault




Brawn

The top three are very close - Ferrari and Red Bull dominated 2001-2004 and 2009-2012 respectively, however McLaren have been the most consistent challenger against the respective winner.

Brawn gets fifth place because of the historical significance of winning the championship in their maiden year and on a shoestring operating budget - even if they did start the year with the most expensive F1 car in the history of the sport thanks for Hondas billions.

Ferrari was much better than McLaren or Red Bull. Ferrari won 5 more titles than Red Bull. Ferrari scored 54.80% of all possible points to score as a one team during this century. McLaren 40.85% (or 42.97% if you add 2007 points). Red Bull 34.48 as a Red Bull and 24.29% as a team since 2001. Renault 26.96% in 2002-2011 as Renault and 25.71% since 2001. BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes makes top 5, close to Williams. 18.14% vs 17.59 for Williams. Brawn was one year wonder so I wouldn't include it as a separate entity. Brawn stats are close to what Ferrari have done since 2001 with 56.21%. To see my list look above at my previous post.

Yes, and that's why I put Ferrari at the top of the list. However the difference between that trio and the rest of the field is bigger than the differences between them.

However, it is impossible for a team to exert Ferrari's dominance in the current climate. Ferrari's dominance came about due to unrestricted testing, budgets, and essentially running bespoke Bridgestone tyres. Until Michelin started developing their tyres for Renault (coupled with a major change in tyre regs for 2005) it was not a level playing field.

Today teams run a much tighter budget, there is less testing and we have hit a development ceiling. In my mind, the fact Red Bull have managed to dominate the last 4 seasons is a greater achievement than the dominance of Ferrari from 2001 - 2004. While it may not have been as 'dominating' in terms of the stats it was harder to achieve.

I am in total agreement about Brawn being a one hit wonder under special circumstances - and we certainly agreed a lot on this issue in the Brawn out Lowe in thread - however even though Brawn only managed it due to a very special set of circumstances, none the less he did managed to deliver a championship win on a shoestring operating budget against the emergent Newey Red Bull lineage. Over the course of the season the RB5 was a faster car than the Brawn car (it was almost as fast BEFORE it had a double diffuser), but it was thanks to flawlessly performing when the car was at its strongest followed by carefully managing the second half of the season that enabled them to clinch it.

Firstly Red Bull won 6 titles, but they need another 6 to beat Ferrari.

Secondly Ferrari still faced very strong competition from Williams and McLaren and it's Ferrari achievement that they could get special tires. BMW and Mercedes were throwing away huge amounts of money. Ferrari spent them better. Don't forget about 3 additional titles using uniform tires after 2004 and that they narrowly missed WDC 2 times under very limited testing. That speaks about overall quality of the team over the long periods of time. Ferrari doesn't look like doomed team wrecked by new regs. Anyway Red Bull did something to be close to Ferrari, but how do you explain McLaren presence, because they beat Ferrari only 4 times???

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