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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:36 pm 
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Here's what Paddy Lowe said on Lewis's Driving style

He's tremendously good at controlling a car in oversteer. We saw that from the first moment he got in our car. We saw the data, and on every entry we could see there was a massive correction on the steering, and our normal drivers would have been bitching like hell that the car was undriveable, yet he didn't even pass comment. So with a driver like that, you're better equipped to push the boundaries to new levels. Speaking generically of that characteristic, a lot of the performance limit of a car is set by stability; if you can't hang on to it, you will have to introduce understeer in that zone. But if you have a driver better able to deal with oversteer in those zones that induce it, then you will have a less-understeery car elsewhere and therefore more total grip over the lap. The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability. Like for like compared to other drivers, they want more front end.


Last edited by MclarenBullet on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Talk about a misleading title.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:41 pm 
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I could agree with what is said about Lewis but you might want to change the heading as he does not say that about Jenson.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:42 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Talk about a misleading title.


Just a bit ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:43 pm 
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And all that time the mighty Lewis is correcting the car he is not going as fast as he could. Simple physics

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:43 pm 
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source ?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:46 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
And all that time the mighty Lewis is correcting the car he is not going as fast as he could. Simple physics


What wait, you have a solution for Lewis to go quicker?

Send him a tweet


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:50 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
And all that time the mighty Lewis is correcting the car he is not going as fast as he could. Simple physics



And if he's not passing comment it's not helping the designers or Race engineers get a better car .

Double edged sword that particular comment.

Besides that all the Professional world level Mechanics I have met have always preferred drivers who passed comment ;) .

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:51 pm 
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lol Button fans jealous that Hamilton is better at controlling the car

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:54 pm 
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heh I like how armchair f1 experts here think they know better than Paddy Lowe....


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:56 pm 
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tmzxaar wrote:
lol Button fans jealous that Hamilton is better at controlling the car


To be honest the comment he makes about drivers bitching basically described Jenson lol

He can't control a car like Lewis can but if it's set up right he is very quick.

Who wouldn't want a driver that can just get on with it and be rapid than a driver who moans all day long

Maybe thats why paddy is off , Jenson doing his head in lol


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
And all that time the mighty Lewis is correcting the car he is not going as fast as he could. Simple physics



And if he's not passing comment it's not helping the designers or Race engineers get a better car .

Double edged sword that particular comment.

Besides that all the Professional world level Mechanics I have met have always preferred drivers who passed comment ;) .

Depends what the comments are I would have thought ,whether they help progress or just whinning excuses.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:59 pm 
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"We saw the data, and on every entry we could see there was a massive correction on the steering, and our normal drivers would have been bitching like hell that the car was undriveable, yet he didn't even pass comment. So with a driver like that, you're better equipped to push the boundaries to new levels"

Pushing the boundaries is what F1 is all about but if the car is rapid but will make the car not perfectly balanced then they can't push these boundaries because certain drivers can't handle it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:03 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:

Maybe thats why paddy is off , Jenson doing his head in lol


Funny it was said even before Button had signed for Macca

http://mccabism.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/ ... ility.html

Quote:
Wednesday, November 25, 2009


Which makes the OPs original title even funnier.

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Last edited by Johnston on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:

Maybe thats why paddy is off , Jenson doing his head in lol


Funny it was said even before Button had signed for Macca

http://mccabism.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/ ... ility.html

Quote:
Wednesday, November 25, 2009


How does that even matter or change his thought process?

He still is calling Jenson and all normal drivers that have driven the car 2008 onwards moaning bitches.

Jenson being the worst one of them all


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:07 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
Johnston wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:

Maybe thats why paddy is off , Jenson doing his head in lol


Funny it was said even before Button had signed for Macca

http://mccabism.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/ ... ility.html

Quote:
Wednesday, November 25, 2009


How does that even matter or change his thought process?


Well when the OP originally aimed the quote at Button.

A driver that doesn't pass comment is not passing on feedback. Even Lewis would drive better in a car set up to perfection. Driving around a car costs time, hurts a driver physically and mentally.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:08 pm 
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If you're correcting a car you are turning away from the position you want to turn

Left hand turn > turn steering wheel left > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Lewis taking the same corner

turn steering wheel left > turn steering wheel right > turn steering wheel left again > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Needless tuning of the wheels causing abrasion and ruining tyres

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
Johnston wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:

Maybe thats why paddy is off , Jenson doing his head in lol


Funny it was said even before Button had signed for Macca

http://mccabism.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/ ... ility.html

Quote:
Wednesday, November 25, 2009


How does that even matter or change his thought process?


Well when the OP originally aimed the quote at Button.

A driver that doesn't pass comment is not passing on feedback. Even Lewis would drive better in a car set up to perfection. Driving around a car costs time, hurts a driver physically and mentally.


There is a difference to a driver passing comment and moaning all the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:11 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
There is a difference to a driver passing comment and moaning all the time.



On this forum Moaning and Feedback are the same ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:12 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
If you're correcting a car you are turning away from the position you want to turn

Left hand turn > turn steering wheel left > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Lewis taking the same corner

turn steering wheel left > turn steering wheel right > turn steering wheel left again > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Needless tuning of the wheels causing abrasion and ruining tyres


Yep....

Quote:
The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability.


It certainly hurt the careers of that lot.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
MclarenBullet wrote:
There is a difference to a driver passing comment and moaning all the time.



On this forum Moaning and Feedback are the same ;)


laughed at that one :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:13 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
If you're correcting a car you are turning away from the position you want to turn

Left hand turn > turn steering wheel left > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Lewis taking the same corner

turn steering wheel left > turn steering wheel right > turn steering wheel left again > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Needless tuning of the wheels causing abrasion and ruining tyres


Yep....

Quote:
The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability.


It certainly hurt the careers of that lot.


Did you watch F1 back then? Everyone drove that way back in the 80's so nobody was losing time over someone else, the cars had very little downforce and all was mechanical grip with wasn't a great deal

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:17 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
If you're correcting a car you are turning away from the position you want to turn

Left hand turn > turn steering wheel left > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Lewis taking the same corner

turn steering wheel left > turn steering wheel right > turn steering wheel left again > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Needless tuning of the wheels causing abrasion and ruining tyres


Yep....

Quote:
The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability.


It certainly hurt the careers of that lot.


Did you watch F1 back then? Everyone drove that way back in the 80's so nobody was losing time over someone else, the cars had very little downforce and all was mechanical grip with wasn't a great deal


Real drivers not worried about tyres going off.

Go as quick as you can every lap not this cruising rubbish with have now.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:18 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
If you're correcting a car you are turning away from the position you want to turn

Left hand turn > turn steering wheel left > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Lewis taking the same corner

turn steering wheel left > turn steering wheel right > turn steering wheel left again > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Needless tuning of the wheels causing abrasion and ruining tyres


Yep....

Quote:
The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability.


It certainly hurt the careers of that lot.


Did you watch F1 back then? Everyone drove that way back in the 80's so nobody was losing time over someone else, the cars had very little downforce and all was mechanical grip with wasn't a great deal


Schumacher? In the 80's? Driving under a pseudonym was he?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:19 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
If you're correcting a car you are turning away from the position you want to turn

Left hand turn > turn steering wheel left > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Lewis taking the same corner

turn steering wheel left > turn steering wheel right > turn steering wheel left again > negotiate corner > straighten steering wheel > exit corner

Needless tuning of the wheels causing abrasion and ruining tyres


Yep....

Quote:
The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability.


It certainly hurt the careers of that lot.


Did you watch F1 back then? Everyone drove that way back in the 80's so nobody was losing time over someone else, the cars had very little downforce and all was mechanical grip with wasn't a great deal


Schumacher? In the 80's? Driving under a pseudonym was he?


Schumacher done his fair share of correction but paddy was talking about every entry to a corner and there's no way Schumi would've put up with a car doing that

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:26 pm 
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I find it incredible that a bunch of armchair experts can take words of great praise from a man with such a lot of experience and turn them into a negative, solely based on who he is talking about. Ask yourselves one question, if he was heaping such praise on someone else, Alonso, Vettel, Button, what would your reaction be? Toodle pip.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
And all that time the mighty Lewis is correcting the car he is not going as fast as he could. Simple physics



And if he's not passing comment it's not helping the designers or Race engineers get a better car .

Double edged sword that particular comment.

Besides that all the Professional world level Mechanics I have met have always preferred drivers who passed comment ;) .

Surely if they can see it all on telemetry if does not need to. But that aside I am sure he would give feed back. Just in a non moaning way.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:37 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
I find it incredible that a bunch of armchair experts can take words of great praise from a man with such a lot of experience and turn them into a negative, solely based on who he is talking about. Ask yourselves one question, if he was heaping such praise on someone else, Alonso, Vettel, Button, what would your reaction be? Toodle pip.



It's not who he is talking about. But when I have heard from a chief mechanic for a multiple World Champion who worked along with a few others who states that they guys that didn't Moan or whinge or comment or bitch or how ever you want to say it were the worst to work with.

Time and time again I've heard the same from guys who have worked for M-Sport, Ralliart, Prodrive and TTE that they much preferred a "moaner" over a "No comment" .

Dider Auriol was said to be one of the worst. However as a test they changed the helper springs without his knowledge, only by a few lbs. He was able to notice it.

I've heard it from a fairly reliable source that it was McRae that talked Citroen into hiring Sainz because of his "Bitching" . Of course only one got kept on when the rules changed to two car teams . I wonder why ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
I find it incredible that a bunch of armchair experts can take words of great praise from a man with such a lot of experience and turn them into a negative, solely based on who he is talking about. Ask yourselves one question, if he was heaping such praise on someone else, Alonso, Vettel, Button, what would your reaction be? Toodle pip.



It's not who he is talking about. But when I have heard from a chief mechanic for a multiple World Champion who worked along with a few others who states that they guys that didn't Moan or whinge or comment or bitch or how ever you want to say it were the worst to work with.

Time and time again I've heard the same from guys who have worked for M-Sport, Ralliart, Prodrive and TTE that they much preferred a "moaner" over a "No comment" .

Dider Auriol was said to be one of the worst. However as a test they changed the helper springs without his knowledge, only by a few lbs. He was able to notice it.

I've heard it from a fairly reliable source that it was McRae that talked Citroen into hiring Sainz because of his "Bitching" . Of course only one got kept on when the rules changed to two car teams . I wonder why ;)

Are you really suggesting that Lowe's comments above mean Hamilton gave zero feedback as to what was happening with the car?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:43 pm 
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yeah yeah Hamilton must be terrible to work with then...you heard it here first folks!... :blush: ;) :nod:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:48 pm 
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G1n wrote:
yeah yeah Hamilton must be terrible to work with then...you heard here first folks!... :blush: ;) :nod:

Therefore Lowe called Lewis a great guy, and the "most fantastic driver" and was not happy that he left

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:49 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
Are you really suggesting that Lowe's comments above mean Hamilton gave zero feedback as to what was happening with the car?


well what would you call not passing comment on the deficiencies of a car ?

We're back to that double edged thing. If a driver is giving it back as feedback, isn't he commenting? If he's not commenting on it how can he be giving feedback?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
Are you really suggesting that Lowe's comments above mean Hamilton gave zero feedback as to what was happening with the car?


well what would you call not passing comment on the deficiencies of a car ?

Sorry, is your reading comprehension not up to scratch? Did you miss the bit where Lowe said a driver who has the ability to control a oversteery car in such situations can let them as a team 'push the boundaries to new levels', enabling the car to have 'more total grip over the lap'. Doesn't sound like a deficiency to me. And do you think the fact that Hamilton didn't moan about a slidey rear in such situation means he never opened his mouth about other potential problems with the car.

By all means be tiddled off because some numpty decided to use a stupid thread title but try not to lose all sense.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:59 pm 
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I am going to enter the fray here and simply say that:
you do not need to adjust/correct the steering angle if you are not going too fast and losing grip/adhesion and are not understeering wide (or conversely going too slow or have too much grip for the steering angle and are oversteering into the apex!)
In other words, in a given situation, a given corner, if you like - the limit of adhesion coupled with the balance and downforce of the car gives a 'finite' maximum speed for that corner, yes? If no-one understand this, then I will presume they either do not drive (fast) or do not understand the physics of the situation.
Ok, so if there is a physical maximum speed at which a given car can take a given corner, what causes a driver to overcook it? well, firstly, we have entry speed, i.e as per a corner at the end of a long straight, yes? In such a situation, imagine if a car normally barrels down the straight at 200mph, then next lap, gets a tow and is doing 210mph at braking zone? The result, as we see, week in week out is too much entry speed. This results in too much speed for the corner and too much understeer, etc, etc.....this then requires 'correction' by the driver to avoid swimming pool off into the gravel.........then there is too much/too little braking force as the corner is entered (brake wear/balance anybody?)
Now, also add to the above, the fact that the fuel load, tyre wear, track grip, etc, etc - are actually changing parameters during a race. yes?
Each of these factors is a constantly changing variable............
Now, put yourself in the position of a top driver, hungry for achieving the most pace out of each and every lap. How do you do that? Knowing that as each lap passes, you will have slightly different car characteristics.....
if you do not reach/approach the very edge of the limit of grip/adhesion/downforce/pace, etc - on each and every lap and on each and every corner - you will have lost some microseconds (compared to your rivals), yes? So how do you know when you are at that limit? Obviosuly, it can only be through feeling the starting 'slide' and correcting the car as required.
Now, I am not going to get into discussion about whether this is ideal given the recent 'tyre issues' - all I am saying is that in order to extract the most pace out of the package, the driver needs to be at exactly that point in the grip/speed/understeer combination, each and every lap. I'm sure many drivers do not like an understeery car because it cause excess tyre wear and requires too much corrective input but equally, even in a perfectly balanced car, if they do not 'get' up to the grip limit, they all know they have lost some pace, somewhere..........
I hope that makes some sense..........if not I apologise........

edit:
forgot to add that int he context of Lowes comments - it follows that a driver ideally wants to be at the stage where he/she 'just' has to make some steering corrections at each and every corner to 'know' that he/she has reached the best speed fo the corner with his/her car package...


Last edited by FringeUK on Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:59 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
I find it incredible that a bunch of armchair experts can take words of great praise from a man with such a lot of experience and turn them into a negative, solely based on who he is talking about. Ask yourselves one question, if he was heaping such praise on someone else, Alonso, Vettel, Button, what would your reaction be? Toodle pip.



It's not who he is talking about. But when I have heard from a chief mechanic for a multiple World Champion who worked along with a few others who states that they guys that didn't Moan or whinge or comment or bitch or how ever you want to say it were the worst to work with.

Time and time again I've heard the same from guys who have worked for M-Sport, Ralliart, Prodrive and TTE that they much preferred a "moaner" over a "No comment" .

Dider Auriol was said to be one of the worst. However as a test they changed the helper springs without his knowledge, only by a few lbs. He was able to notice it.

I've heard it from a fairly reliable source that it was McRae that talked Citroen into hiring Sainz because of his "Bitching" . Of course only one got kept on when the rules changed to two car teams . I wonder why ;)



Must admit, every team/engineer loves nothing more than putting development on hold to solve problems with heating up tyres, dream to work with.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:03 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
Are you really suggesting that Lowe's comments above mean Hamilton gave zero feedback as to what was happening with the car?


well what would you call not passing comment on the deficiencies of a car ?

Sorry, is your reading comprehension not up to scratch? Did you miss the bit where Lowe said a driver who has the ability to control a oversteery car in such situations can let them as a team 'push the boundaries to new levels', enabling the car to have 'more total grip over the lap'. Doesn't sound like a deficiency to me. And do you think the fact that Hamilton didn't moan about a slidey rear in such situation means he never opened his mouth about other potential problems with the car.

By all means be tiddled off because some numpty decided to use a stupid thread title but try not to lose all sense.



Did you miss the bit where he said

Quote:
yet he didn't even pass comment.


If he's having to correct then the car is not at it's optimum. A slidey rear end and correcting a car costs time.

Do you not think it would be worth commenting on to see if they can dial out the bad slidey stuff and keep the good grippy stuff?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:10 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
Johnston wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
Are you really suggesting that Lowe's comments above mean Hamilton gave zero feedback as to what was happening with the car?


well what would you call not passing comment on the deficiencies of a car ?

Sorry, is your reading comprehension not up to scratch? Did you miss the bit where Lowe said a driver who has the ability to control a oversteery car in such situations can let them as a team 'push the boundaries to new levels', enabling the car to have 'more total grip over the lap'. Doesn't sound like a deficiency to me. And do you think the fact that Hamilton didn't moan about a slidey rear in such situation means he never opened his mouth about other potential problems with the car.

By all means be tiddled off because some numpty decided to use a stupid thread title but try not to lose all sense.



Did you miss the bit where he said

Quote:
yet he didn't even pass comment.


If he's having to correct then the car is not at it's optimum. A slidey rear end and correcting a car costs time.

Do you not think it would be worth commenting on to see if they can dial out the bad slidey stuff and keep the good grippy stuff?

And once again it didn't seem to hold the three great drivers back that Lowe mentioned did it? You know Johnston, it wouldn't do you any harm and would do wonders for your credibility if you admitted every now and again that Hamilton was actually quite a decent racing car driver. Button won't feel like you're cheating on him, I promise ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:13 pm 
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an thread about Lewis jacked by the JB fans trying to bash him. a surprising change of tone in the forum


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Shockers that Johnston is involved in another Hamilton debate...

Anyway Lowe can have his opinion. Hamilton can drive around problems in his car a la Senna/Schumacher/Mansell. However sometimes that can have a negative effect, if a driver can driver around a problem then they won't identify it to the team as something they need to change on the car to make it even better. Someone like Button who can't drive around problems the same will tell the team so and so needs changing and the car will go faster, the Hamilton's settle for what they have and make the most of it without seeing if they could change the car to go even faster because they think they don't need to. For development teams like drivers who feel changes in the cars quickly and don't just drive round the problems, that's how they make them go faster and faster. In a race situation though a Hamilton or a Schumacher's skills can be a life saver once you can't make changes to the cars. It's good and bad but mainly good.

None of this makes sense so I'm gonna shut up now. I'm sure someone will twist what I said into a Hammy bash but it's not, it's a Hammy praise if anything highlighting the one negative his skill can have.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:59 pm
Posts: 198
"Lewis we are putting development of that part you wanted on hold whilst we have everyone working on why Jenson can't heat his tyres up, Car development will take a hit but it will stop Jenson moaning and he may Qualify in the top 5 if we solve the issue"


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