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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:12 am 
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Well, there are other factors besides aero you can improve on in a race car. A driver could say they needed better reliability, tyre wear or mechanical grip, to name a few. Rather than "Make your food better!", the more apt cooking-related comparison might be "Season it properly!" as you could also mess up plating, texture or the temperature of your meat.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:39 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In several interviews Hamilton keeps referring to the fact the Mercedes needs more downforce. He has also commented that he keeps telling the aero guys they need to find more downforce. For example:

"we are going to keep asking for downforce"

He's not alone in this, I remember Button making similar comments about the 2010 McLaren but here's my point - surely a driver asking the aero guys for "more downforce" is like someone telling the driver to "drive faster" - their sole responsibility is to find the most downforce for the least amount of drag. A driver turning up and telling them "yeah, what we need is more downforce" is basically saying "Yeah, don't stop doing your job."

When is there a case that a F1 car doesn't need more downforce?

And before anyone says "ah, but the downforce might be right but they might need less drag" that's exactly the same problem. If they need less drag they can just drop the wing angles on the car to get the drag they need and then they are in a "we need more downforce" situation.


Surely you mean to say.... MOAR DOWNFORCE!!
Sorry I just had to ^ _ ^...

Now, I don't quite understand your post. Perhaps Lewis feels that he is just getting less than what he was getting on previous McLaren and wishes to have what he feels is optimal Downforce : o & I do think he is doing his own job by asking the people to setup the car to his needs isn't he.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:05 am 
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i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:42 pm 
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slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Alonso reiterated time and time again, Ferrari's numerous shortfalls. Despite these shortfalls being glaringly obvious to the average F1 fan, a thread psychonalysing his every word and taking his comments littarally was unbefitting of those who participated. Yes, asking for downforce is stating the bleeding obvious and if Hamilton is guilty of this offence, then so is every other driver on the grid. This being the case, maybe we should start a thread bashing Paul Di-Resta, when he states "the car needs improvements", because that is stating the obvious IMO. :-P I guarantee, by the 3rd day of the 2nd Barcelona test, we will have several drivers asking for more downforce, a better balance, more front end grip, etc etc.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:04 pm 
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On The Edge Of Adhesion wrote:
Alonso reiterated time and time again, Ferrari's numerous shortfalls. Despite these shortfalls being glaringly obvious to the average F1 fan, a thread psychonalysing his every word and taking his comments littarally was unbefitting of those who participated. Yes, asking for downforce is stating the bleeding obvious and if Hamilton is guilty of this offence, then so is every other driver on the grid. This being the case, maybe we should start a thread bashing Paul Di-Resta, when he states "the car needs improvements", because that is stating the obvious IMO. :-P I guarantee, by the 3rd day of the 2nd Barcelona test, we will have several drivers asking for more downforce, a better balance, more front end grip, etc etc.


absolutely! (mind you probably not Vettel - he will be in the design office telling them where they are going wrong! LOL)


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Understanding and designing are two different things. In the words of the Lotus social media contributor, "Pay attention."

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:27 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
That's not knowing how off throttle blowing works, that's knowing how to make it work better. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had a pretty good handle on both.


and

ashley313 wrote:
I'd bet the house on Seb knowing exactly have off throttle blowing works. Anyone who understands how engines work and what the shape of an F1 car is knows how it works. Not a mystery, not a trick.


and

ashley313 wrote:
Understanding and designing are two different things. In the words of the Lotus social media contributor, "Pay attention."


I respectfully think it is you who should ''Pay attention'', especially to what you posted previously - as you clearly implied that SV likely knew how to do both! Do you now retract that assertion?


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:06 pm 
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When did anyone say Seb developed the car? Understanding how the tech works, helps drivers use them better and give more specific feedback. I thought its pretty obvious what Ashley is saying.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:19 pm 
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go to Redbull

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:22 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
I respectfully think it is you who should ''Pay attention'', especially to what you posted previously - as you clearly implied that SV likely knew how to do both!

I didn't. I said I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:24 pm 
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r41 wrote:
But couldn't that just mean that he needs more wing for his desired set up?


maybe.. but I think it's more to do with the car not having sufficient mechanical grip, especially the back end, resulting in over-steer.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:38 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.


who do the engineers listen then - they rely very much on how good the drivers feedback is - what would they do without it , guess


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:45 am 
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Actually downforce isn't the only major thing engineers do. For this year's car, Ferrari for example focused a lot on making parts smaller and lighter, while still giving the same performance.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:09 am 
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slide wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.


who do the engineers listen then - they rely very much on how good the drivers feedback is - what would they do without it , guess

had once a discussion with a F1 engineer, he agreed they still need the drivers feedback , because there is only so much you can simulate, the driver is the one who feels what the car does. The drivers input/feedback is crucial as soon as the car is run

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:18 am 
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http://planetf1.com/news/3213/8482332/B ... s-Approach

Does this type of feedback help?

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:42 am 
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slide wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.


who do the engineers listen then - they rely very much on how good the drivers feedback is - what would they do without it , guess


I wouldn't say they rely on the driver's feedback. The cars these days have millions of sensors that are able to take very precise readings. This data is far more precise and accurate than anything a driver will come up with.

All a driver will do is say "The back is sliding, we need more rear downforce" The data would have told you that and a hell of alot more

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:43 am 
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f1madman wrote:
http://planetf1.com/news/3213/8482332/Brawn-Hails-Hamilton-s-Approach

Does this type of feedback help?

Obviously someone is doing a sloopy job there. It may not only be the stickers as Brawn said as example , but if they are sloopy there, they might be sloopy somewhere else . F1 is about perfection
Ron Dennis might not have accepted it , too

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:46 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.


who do the engineers listen then - they rely very much on how good the drivers feedback is - what would they do without it , guess


I wouldn't say they rely on the driver's feedback. The cars these days have millions of sensors that are able to take very precise readings. This data is far more precise and accurate than anything a driver will come up with.

All a driver will do is say "The back is sliding, we need more rear downforce" The data would have told you that and a hell of alot more

It was a race engineer who said it, sensors can not tell how the car "feels" how the car is to drive& . Drivers feedback is still very important

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:15 am 
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Haribo wrote:
f1madman wrote:
http://planetf1.com/news/3213/8482332/Brawn-Hails-Hamilton-s-Approach

Does this type of feedback help?

Obviously someone is doing a sloopy job there. It may not only be the stickers as Brawn said as example , but if they are sloopy there, they might be sloopy somewhere else . F1 is about perfection
Ron Dennis might not have accepted it , too


Lol I did find thee sticker comment rather funny.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:22 pm 
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You can take the man out of McLaren but you can't take McLaren out of the man...

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:57 pm 
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If Lewis had just said ..

'The aero guys are working hard to give us more downforce that we badly need..'

..then this discussion wouldn't be happening as it's really just over his choice of phrasing. But then he is paid to drive fast, not to be a politician.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:51 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.


who do the engineers listen then - they rely very much on how good the drivers feedback is - what would they do without it , guess


I wouldn't say they rely on the driver's feedback. The cars these days have millions of sensors that are able to take very precise readings. This data is far more precise and accurate than anything a driver will come up with.

All a driver will do is say "The back is sliding, we need more rear downforce" The data would have told you that and a hell of alot more

Only if he's not very good at giving feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
slide wrote:
i truly believe that lewis is really gonna enjoy building and developing the merc , and this uphill battle of development he faces , is a very important part of his personal development , and its just what he needs , and he is really pleased to be team mates with nico again .
..........this is going to be a mega season ,with jenson getting his 2nd title and watching merc getting stronger as the year flows ...this year watching merc will be a bit like 91 when williams and mansell got stronger and stronger and blew the competition away the following year , and in 2014 lewis will be unbeatable


Lewis isn't going to do any building, he's just going to drive what he's given and hope the development staff come up with something good.


who do the engineers listen then - they rely very much on how good the drivers feedback is - what would they do without it , guess


I wouldn't say they rely on the driver's feedback. The cars these days have millions of sensors that are able to take very precise readings. This data is far more precise and accurate than anything a driver will come up with.

All a driver will do is say "The back is sliding, we need more rear downforce" The data would have told you that and a hell of alot more

It was a race engineer who said it, sensors can not tell how the car "feels" how the car is to drive& . Drivers feedback is still very important


I never said driver feedback wasn't important. I said they don't rely on driver feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:18 pm 
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There is no "right" or "wrong" setup sheet - there is only what the driver is comfortable with. Engineers can't look at data and say, "if we do this this and this it will be correct" and then have the car be the best it can be for either driver. Setup is a conversation between driver and engineer about problems and solutions, all aimed at giving the driver more confidence. If a driver cannot communicate clear, detailed, informed feedback, the engineer cannot help him dial the car in because you need a physical characteristic to assign to the values on the screen or page. Even if you tried to match up your setup at the circuit to a proven quick setup for that driver in the sim, you may miss the mark by miles because your modeling or sim processes are flawed (*cough*Ferrari*cough*).

Here is a recent, relevant example of how important the conversation between driver and engineer is http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105475 .

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:54 pm 
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More down force can preserve tyres in the long term.

Something Mercedes was never able to balance well.

They were either fast on Saturday or fast on Sunday. It all depended on getting maximum grip or longevity.


Hamilton seems to know about their tyre issue.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:53 pm 
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From a JA on F1 article
Quote:
...As for his first taste of Mercedes vs McLaren machinery, Hamilton was pretty frank,
“The McLaren was better, but that’s not a surprise. I could see last year that the Mercedes was often a second off the best; sometimes two seconds. I was prepared for that. I could tell (in Jerez test) that the Mercedes had less downforce than the McLaren. But it’s not catastrophic. I’ve got ideas on how we can improve two or three things.


I'm seeing a lot of quotes like this from Hamilton, and I find it staggeringly arrogant. I understand how having (another) great driver on the team can aid development through feedback ect, however he seems to be implying that he's in a design role in a lot of interviews, it's crazy. Is it mis-quoting or a deluded idea that his presence within the team will suddenly make the their car faster (beyond that which his driving talent might bring)?

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 am 
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floydhead wrote:
From a JA on F1 article
Quote:
...As for his first taste of Mercedes vs McLaren machinery, Hamilton was pretty frank,
“The McLaren was better, but that’s not a surprise. I could see last year that the Mercedes was often a second off the best; sometimes two seconds. I was prepared for that. I could tell (in Jerez test) that the Mercedes had less downforce than the McLaren. But it’s not catastrophic. I’ve got ideas on how we can improve two or three things.


I'm seeing a lot of quotes like this from Hamilton, and I find it staggeringly arrogant. I understand how having (another) great driver on the team can aid development through feedback ect, however he seems to be implying that he's in a design role in a lot of interviews, it's crazy. Is it mis-quoting or a deluded idea that his presence within the team will suddenly make the their car faster (beyond that which his driving talent might bring)?


He might have some ideas and insight though...

While I'd probably respect the views of Sir Alex Ferguson more than Wayne Rooney in a discussion, I'm sure Wayne has some ideas he talks about with SAF on how Man Utd could play better. SAF then filters them and uses any that are any good.

Merc will do the same with Hamilton. He'll talk with them about what he thinks, and they'll then go away, chuck out the stupid ones and put his good ones with their own and hopefully improve the car...

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:27 am 
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He didn't specifically say he had ideas for how to improve the design concept of the car - he could mean changing procedural things, moving things for better ergonomics, or even just setup changes they didn't get to yet.

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:05 am 
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My guess is that a driver would say he has enough downforce when the car is balanced. And that downforce is just one factor.

I'm sure Hamilton compares the MW04 to the Mclaren MP4-27, but don't he uses it as a bechmark to determine Mercedes' performance. He probably determined more downforce based on the performance/balance of the car on certain parts of the track and getting the feeling that he could push more.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:48 pm 
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I think it's fair to say that each and every driver on the grid is extremely intelligent and being able to communicate their views on how a car feels and how it should be set-up is fundamental to being at the pinnacle of the sport.

It's easy to assume that the driver just gets in and drives as quickly as they can, but an in-depth knowledge of how the car works is vital. Take the differential for example, if a driver doesn't understand how different differential settings affect corner entry, mid-corner and exit, then they will either be very slow, or chew their tyres. It's the same with downforce. A driver who prefers a pointy front end will communicate this to the team and request either more front wing, or less rear wing in order to get the balance they want. Whether or not they can deliver practical solutions is another matter. Does anyone know if ANY of the drivers on the grid ever have any input in wind-tunnel testing or design of specific parts etc? Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's a team effort. Red Bull have shown over the last few seasons that the combination of a relentless design team, aggressive pit-wall strategists and arguably the strongest driver have all culminated in the winning package.

What Hamilton has in his favour is that he can (reportedly) drive an F1 car very quickly over a wide operating range. Whereas other drivers need a very precise window in which to perform. This, IMO, buys his team and engineers the flexibility that a more setup sensitive driver cannot.

The worrying thing from Mercedes perspective appears to be that their 2013 car has less downforce than the 2012 McLaren, so they may well be starting the season with a lot of catching up to do.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:29 pm 
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I can't see mercedes spending all that money on new wind tunnel, new team members, plenty on a new driver & new car. There must have a lot of upgrades to bring for pre season testing to become at least more competitive than they was last season.


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 Post subject: Re: MORE DOWNFORCE!!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Thanks ashley :( I now know I should have been a WDC..because I understand how off throttle blowing works.

If only my parents had the $$ for a go-kart.

That's the funny thing isn't it..Seb is only good now because he "got a start"...meanwhile in Kazakhstan ;)

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