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 Post subject: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Firstly before anyone jumps on this, i'm not saying this going to happen, but more of a what if...

In his early f1 career Rosberg has had some flashes of brilliance, (not a fan myself, but clearly he is quick)

Hamilton is regards as the outright fastest man in F1, what if he can't get within 3 tenths or rosberg. Will we have to re-evaluate how well ms did, it could and might just be the fastest man in F1 has been overlooked.

Not just that it may well turn how the rest field is viewed on its head.


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..


Last edited by G1n on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:36 pm 
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gdansk_II wrote:
Firstly before anyone jumps on this, i'm not saying this going to happen, but more of a what if...

In his early f1 career Rosberg has had some flashes of brilliance, (not a fan myself, but clearly he is quick)

Hamilton is regards as the outright fastest man in F1, what if he can't get within 3 tenths or rosberg. Will we have to re-evaluate how well ms did, it could and might just be the fastest man in F1 has been overlooked.

Not just that it may well turn how the rest field is viewed on its head.

This will not happen

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:38 pm 
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gdansk_II wrote:
Firstly before anyone jumps on this, i'm not saying this going to happen, but more of a what if...

In his early f1 career Rosberg has had some flashes of brilliance, (not a fan myself, but clearly he is quick)

Hamilton is regards as the outright fastest man in F1, what if he can't get within 3 tenths or rosberg. Will we have to re-evaluate how well ms did, it could and might just be the fastest man in F1 has been overlooked.

Not just that it may well turn how the rest field is viewed on its head.

It's Hamilton's first time in a Merc. Wait till he gets used to it.

If, after a few races, he is still considerably slower, Rosberg will be regarded as the fastest man in F1 by a country mile. But I doubt it...


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:40 pm 
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It's been said that there's about 3/10ths between the best and worst driver on the grid -- are you implying that Rosberg is the best driver and Hamilton the worst? I don't like Hamilton very much but I'd be hugely surprised if there's a large discrepancy between him and Rosberg.


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:49 pm 
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gdansk_II wrote:
Firstly before anyone jumps on this, i'm not saying this going to happen, but more of a what if...

In his early f1 career Rosberg has had some flashes of brilliance, (not a fan myself, but clearly he is quick)

Hamilton is regards as the outright fastest man in F1, what if he can't get within 3 tenths or rosberg. Will we have to re-evaluate how well ms did, it could and might just be the fastest man in F1 has been overlooked.

Not just that it may well turn how the rest field is viewed on its head.


What if, what if, what if...

Thing is, this isn't something we need to debate... We can just wait 5 weeks and start discussing the outcome of Melbourne. Why bother trying to speculate about what if this, what if that regarding Lewis and Rosberg. We can wait and see the result of what will be.

Proper "what if" questions are based on scenarios we don't know... IE What if Alonso had been driving for RBR in 2012?


Thing is, as for relative performances of Lewis and Rosberg in 2013, unless one destroys the other, we'll just end up with another Lewis Jenson debate. Fans will ignore whatever evidence there is of one beating the other and try and trumpet that which supports their driver. Any evidence of it not being clear either way will be ignored by both parties who will still try and claim a victory for their driver...

Basically, even if Rosberg stuffs Lewis this year, you'll get half this forum trying to claim "yea, but he knew the car, this was just Lewis' first season for Merc".

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:53 pm 
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It looks unlikely to happen, but I suppose it could happen. Unfortunately for us, Rosberg has never really been against a top driver in his career. The best we (think) we've seen so far has been Webber in his debut season. Since then he's versed Wurz, Nakajima and lastly Schumacher. The most exciting idea of Rosberg beating Hamilton would be that we'd have to completely re-evaluate how fast we thought Schumacher was, especially when he was able to match Nico in 2012.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Gothalamide wrote:
gdansk_II wrote:
Firstly before anyone jumps on this, i'm not saying this going to happen, but more of a what if...

In his early f1 career Rosberg has had some flashes of brilliance, (not a fan myself, but clearly he is quick)

Hamilton is regards as the outright fastest man in F1, what if he can't get within 3 tenths or rosberg. Will we have to re-evaluate how well ms did, it could and might just be the fastest man in F1 has been overlooked.

Not just that it may well turn how the rest field is viewed on its head.


What if, what if, what if...

Thing is, this isn't something we need to debate... We can just wait 5 weeks and start discussing the outcome of Melbourne. Why bother trying to speculate about what if this, what if that regarding Lewis and Rosberg. We can wait and see the result of what will be.

Proper "what if" questions are based on scenarios we don't know... IE What if Alonso had been driving for RBR in 2012?


Thing is, as for relative performances of Lewis and Rosberg in 2013, unless one destroys the other, we'll just end up with another Lewis Jenson debate. Fans will ignore whatever evidence there is of one beating the other and try and trumpet that which supports their driver. Any evidence of it not being clear either way will be ignored by both parties who will still try and claim a victory for their driver...

Basically, even if Rosberg stuffs Lewis this year, you'll get half this forum trying to claim "yea, but he knew the car, this was just Lewis' first season for Merc".

:D :D :D

Half the forum? I don't think so

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:12 pm 
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I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:17 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:25 pm 
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What if....people have discussed this very thought since the first rumor about Lewis leaving McLaren?

Yes its possible Nico will beat him, yes it would make Michael's career v2 look less disappointing, but ultimately every season is different and there is no direct correlation because each car is different.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:28 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
ultimately every season is different and there is no direct correlation because each car is different.

:thumbup:

No harm in threads like this theorising, it's just a bit of amusement, but this is the only real answer.

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Last edited by Balibari on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:30 pm 
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gdansk_II wrote:
Firstly before anyone jumps on this, i'm not saying this going to happen, but more of a what if...

In his early f1 career Rosberg has had some flashes of brilliance, (not a fan myself, but clearly he is quick)

Hamilton is regards as the outright fastest man in F1, what if he can't get within 3 tenths or rosberg. Will we have to re-evaluate how well ms did, it could and might just be the fastest man in F1 has been overlooked.

Not just that it may well turn how the rest field is viewed on its head.


I see the two situations quite far apart to be honest.

Schumacher came back from retirement and in his first year he was evidently rusty. He was also on ground level with Rosberg regarding the car. As the years passed he started to match Rosberg on times in 2011 and even being faster mostly last year.

For Hamilton it can be very different. He didn't have a sabbatical and he is in his prime, however he is newly acquainted with this car so even if he loses out to Rosberg it will not be a miracle. Could you say that Hamilton's age compensates for this? Possibly, depends how long it will take him to "know" the car. He already has been vocal about downforce, so it is not to his liking, certainly not as good as last year's McLaren.

Overall I feel it would be somewhat unfair to judge MS based on Hamilton's performance and Hamilton on MS's performance

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:31 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

Those in the sport seem to think these tyres have blunted his edge. Not sure if it's the same thing you're talkign about, but I'm inclined to agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:40 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
What if....people have discussed this very thought since the first rumor about Lewis leaving McLaren?

Yes its possible Nico will beat him, yes it would make Michael's career v2 look less disappointing, but ultimately every season is different and there is no direct correlation because each car is different.

That may be true but i despise excuses

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:47 pm 
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Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

Those in the sport seem to think these tyres have blunted his edge. Not sure if it's the same thing you're talkign about, but I'm inclined to agree.


Possible, although '09 was a bit of a dull year for him, and that was still Bridgestone.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:50 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

Oh this is going to hurt but...


.... :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:55 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
Balibari wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

Those in the sport seem to think these tyres have blunted his edge. Not sure if it's the same thing you're talkign about, but I'm inclined to agree.


Possible, although '09 was a bit of a dull year for him, and that was still Bridgestone.


In fairness the early 2009 McLaren was a bit of a dog. If memory serves me correctly though I think Hamilton scored most points in the second half of the season once they got it sorted (can't be bothered to check that fact though :-P )


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:56 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

He just lost having a reliable car thats all, throw in the Barcelona team debacle and thats 7 wins he should have had, by far the most wins he would have had in any season, then throw in the most pole positions, plus he dominated his WDC teammate.

I really don't know what that means that a midfield car will make him drive better, it seems just more scope to criticise him for not getting podiums etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:04 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

Going along those lines Massa is just as good as Alonso, Webber just as good as Vettel, but Alonso and Vettel beat them because they get more support from their teams, where is the truth?

I prefer to keep to my simplistic views and not look to excuses that can be made for drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

He just lost having a reliable car thats all, throw in the Barcelona team debacle and thats 7 wins he should have had, by far the most wins he would have had in any season, then throw in the most pole positions, plus he dominated his WDC teammate.

I really don't know what that means that a midfield car will make him drive better, it seems just more scope to criticise him for not getting podiums etc.

I have said he was bloody fast last year, and i have no shame about it.

Not drive better necessarily, but have that bite he used to have if he has to really fight for said podiums.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
Balibari wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

Those in the sport seem to think these tyres have blunted his edge. Not sure if it's the same thing you're talkign about, but I'm inclined to agree.


Possible, although '09 was a bit of a dull year for him, and that was still Bridgestone.


In fairness the early 2009 McLaren was a bit of a dog. If memory serves me correctly though I think Hamilton scored most points in the second half of the season once they got it sorted (can't be bothered to check that fact though :-P )

Yes Hamilton was the dominant driver in the second half of the season, the poster seems to have a somewhat vague recollection of things

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:12 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I've always thought this possible. Hamilton hasn't impressed me much since 2008, not compared to Vettel, Alonso, and last year Raikkonen.

I kind of hope Rosberg does destroy Hamilton, if I'm brutally honest.

I would say that Hamilton drove better last year than 2008, he just had a reliable car in 2008

He was fast last year, Don't get me wrong, but he's lost something that made him stand out. Maybe it's because he's got less to prove now, but he doesn't seem as hungry. Maybe this year that will come out again, especially if he's in a midfield car.

He just lost having a reliable car thats all, throw in the Barcelona team debacle and thats 7 wins he should have had, by far the most wins he would have had in any season, then throw in the most pole positions, plus he dominated his WDC teammate.

I really don't know what that means that a midfield car will make him drive better, it seems just more scope to criticise him for not getting podiums etc.

I have said he was bloody fast last year, and i have no shame about it.

Not drive better necessarily, but have that bite he used to have if he has to really fight for said podiums.

You need to be more specific now

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

Going along those lines Massa is just as good as Alonso, Webber just as good as Vettel, but Alonso and Vettel beat them because they get more support from their teams, where is the truth?

I prefer to keep to my simplistic views and not look to excuses that can be made for drivers.

Over a race, they are just as good. Over a season, they haven't been. The only thing FA and SV really have going for them over their teammates is consistency. The reasons for that can't be quantified.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:18 pm 
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G1n wrote:
Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..
WTF?


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:21 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

Going along those lines Massa is just as good as Alonso, Webber just as good as Vettel, but Alonso and Vettel beat them because they get more support from their teams, where is the truth?

I prefer to keep to my simplistic views and not look to excuses that can be made for drivers.

Over a race, they are just as good. Over a season, they haven't been. The only thing FA and SV really have going for them over their teammates is consistency. The reasons for that can't be quantified.

Well i would quantify that has simply them being better drivers

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:22 pm 
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G1n wrote:
Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..

Agree completely!

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

Going along those lines Massa is just as good as Alonso, Webber just as good as Vettel, but Alonso and Vettel beat them because they get more support from their teams, where is the truth?

I prefer to keep to my simplistic views and not look to excuses that can be made for drivers.

Over a race, they are just as good. Over a season, they haven't been. The only thing FA and SV really have going for them over their teammates is consistency. The reasons for that can't be quantified.

Well i would quantify that has simply them being better drivers

Is it driving skill that breeds consistency? What about the role of team support, the influence of your personal life, your mental and physical stamina, your relationship with the garage? I think the driver wins races, and the man wins championships. There are too many factors beyond physical skill in the car that determine who wins a season to judge competitors solely on their driving, for me. The best driver doesn't win - the best competitor does.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:29 pm 
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chican wrote:
G1n wrote:
Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..
WTF?


Maybe he is referring to the McLaren deal that Rosberg didn't go for. Instead of being in a big team he chose to stay with lesser ones, thus wasting his career.

Maybe

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:30 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
G1n wrote:
Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..

Agree completely!

Where do you expect him to go?

Even if he wants to, the top teams may not be interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
You need to be more specific now


Hamilton used to be so aggressive in his driving, not Maldonado levels but enough to make him exiting, making the sport fresh, arriving not long after the Ferrari/Schumacher dominance. But since he won the championship, that energy seems to have died down. As I've said, he's still bloody fast, but he blends in with other fast drivers like Alonso and Vettel. in all, he's lost what made him stand out, because he hasn't needed it. He has had fast cars, and could qualify well with them. But as soon as the car is uncompetitive (i.e. first half of '09) he slips from view, whereas Alonso in particular has handled dogs into positions they probably shouldn't be in. In Mercedes this year, he might need this aggression back to get anywhere with a car that probably won't be as fast as his previous cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Angus - visibly aggressive driving is limited by the current design regulations and tires...its probably less of a loss of "spark" thing and more of a necessity.
phyz wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
G1n wrote:
Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..

Agree completely!

Where do you expect him to go?

Even if he wants to, the top teams may not be interested.

There will be an opening at RBR soon :) And I suspect one at McLaren, possibly Lotus.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:48 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Its not really an excuse...the 2013 car might be right up Nico's alley, a perfect fit for him, and he could have a fantastic season and beat everyone. But that doesn't mean Michael was driving close to that level for the last couple of years because Nico may not have been as good in the machinery they shared. It also doesn't mean Michael WASN'T driving well, because maybe the car was just absolutely terrible. The only true eval of teammates (for fans) is when they are driving the same car at the same time and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because interteam politics may dictate that one gets the support of greater team resources than the other.

Going along those lines Massa is just as good as Alonso, Webber just as good as Vettel, but Alonso and Vettel beat them because they get more support from their teams, where is the truth?

I prefer to keep to my simplistic views and not look to excuses that can be made for drivers.

Over a race, they are just as good. Over a season, they haven't been. The only thing FA and SV really have going for them over their teammates is consistency. The reasons for that can't be quantified.

Well i would quantify that has simply them being better drivers

Is it driving skill that breeds consistency? What about the role of team support, the influence of your personal life, your mental and physical stamina, your relationship with the garage? I think the driver wins races, and the man wins championships. There are too many factors beyond physical skill in the car that determine who wins a season to judge competitors solely on their driving, for me. The best driver doesn't win - the best competitor does.

Your take is that they win just by being more consistent it seems to me that they win because they are simply quicker, this just seems to read that all the drivers are the same its just that some are more determined

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:12 pm 
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It is never a straight fight, so you can only guess who is quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:17 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You need to be more specific now


Hamilton used to be so aggressive in his driving, not Maldonado levels but enough to make him exiting, making the sport fresh, arriving not long after the Ferrari/Schumacher dominance. But since he won the championship, that energy seems to have died down. As I've said, he's still bloody fast, but he blends in with other fast drivers like Alonso and Vettel. in all, he's lost what made him stand out, because he hasn't needed it. He has had fast cars, and could qualify well with them. But as soon as the car is uncompetitive (i.e. first half of '09) he slips from view, whereas Alonso in particular has handled dogs into positions they probably shouldn't be in. In Mercedes this year, he might need this aggression back to get anywhere with a car that probably won't be as fast as his previous cars.

In 2009 his car was between 1 to 2 seconds a lap off the pace even then he nearly got a podium if not for a team screw up, when your car is that slow how much of a difference do you think a driver can really make?

In 2008 Alonso's car was hardly a dog, being 3rd fastest car in the second half of the season, he had 2 wins, one where the leading cars decided to have a coming together on the opening lap, the other we all know about. The following season was a dog of a car and Alonso only finished 9th in the WDC, he couldn't leave for Ferrari fast enough with Santander having to buy out Kimi's contract.

After 2009 refuelling was banned so the nature of the racing changed with drivers having to be more careful with tyres in the early phases of the race with the heavy fuel load, this got worse in 2011 with the arrival of Pirelli and the chewing gum tyres, you must remember one instance where McLaren told Hamilton he needed to drive slower because he was overheating his tyres to which Hamilton responded he couldn't drive any slower, this being a far cry from when Hamilton first entered F1 with it being basically a series of sprint races between refuelled pitstops.

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:18 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Angus - visibly aggressive driving is limited by the current design regulations and tires...its probably less of a loss of "spark" thing and more of a necessity.
phyz wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
G1n wrote:
Don't know who will beat who, but Rosberg is going in the footsteps of Button in terms of wasting his career...doubt he will get the lucky break a la Brawn GP though..

Agree completely!

Where do you expect him to go?

Even if he wants to, the top teams may not be interested.

There will be an opening at RBR soon :) And I suspect one at McLaren, possibly Lotus.

Not to mention Ferrari as well if Rosberg performs well against Hamilton and Mercedes continue to stink

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:20 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
It is never a straight fight, so you can only guess who is quicker.

I can't believe that

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 Post subject: Re: Just a thought
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:24 pm 
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So you think all pairs of teammates are driving identical cars with equally good strategies, all the time? Because with any unequal factors, a ranking is a guess or an opinion, not a fact.

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