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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:51 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
IIRC the McLaren-Montoya relationship reached its climatic end after Indy 2006. There was a massive crash that took out several cars, including both McLarens and McLaren blamed Montoya for it. Montoya called a press conference to announce his move to NASCAR for 2007 about a week after the race without McLaren's knowledge and appearing alongside conflicting sponsors. That was a breach of contract and it's also not hard to imagine Dennis being seriously peeved. So they turfed him effective immediately.

IMO it's no secret that Montoya was really unhappy in the sport. He didn't like the environment, the politics, the way racing worked, the personal fitness requirements, the level of involvement with all the aspects beyond driving the car, the travelling...........the list goes on.

He made a similar snap decision to leave Williams after (I think) the European or French GP in 2003. He had been in a position to win the race over his teammate and in order to achieve this he changed his strategy to pit one lap earlier, but Ralf Schumacher did the same thing and preserved his lead. Montoya was convinced the team had told Ralf of his strategy and screwed him over and cracked it and stormed off the McLaren to ask for a drive there from 2005. I find it hard to judge if his decision to go to NASCAR was a long time in the making and the announcement itself was the result of his fiery temperament or if after that Indy race he made yet another snap decision and pursued NASCAR then.


this is also what i remember of montoya's death knell.

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i wonder what montoya's excuse to kimi was... it looks like they were arguing. also not how portly jpm is!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Why did he quit? Well, who could stand Ron Dennis for too long? Only Ayrton Senna could.

I was a fan of fatso Montoya, but we can't ignore the fact that Ralf Schumacher (underrated driver) and Kimi Raikkonnen performed just as well as JPM.

By the way, from what i've read on the news, JPM is in pretty good terms with Kimi, believe it or not.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
lamo wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Montoya had a poor first half of 2005. He matched Kimi in the second half but then in 2006 he was just terrible, worse than ever for Mclaren. I would quite like to have seen him in the other RBR seat with DC but I don't think David would have liked that and JPM wouldn't want to drive around in a midfield car.

I think NASCAR lifestyle just suits Juan better. He doesn't have to worry about his weight and fitness anywhere near as much and he gets to live in the US, where he did a lot of his early racing and is much closer to Colombia.


He did not match Kimi in the second half of 2005. Not even close. He was actually closer to Kimi in 2006.

He won three races in 2005, two of which Kimi had pole but got demoted to 11th. The only race he was near Kimi's pace was in Brazil and Spa.


Canada he was ahead and could have won but for the safety car.
France he was pretty much on Kimi's pace although slightly slower.
Hungary again he was pretty much on Kimi's pace.
Monza he was only a 10th behind in qualy and did what he had to do to win the race.
Silverstone Kimi may have been quicker but Montoya wasn't exactly slow and beat pole sitter Alonso fair and square.



Trouble is being almost on the pace of your team mate is not god enough if your going to be considered an elite driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:20 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BrazilLastCorner2008 wrote:
Think everyone else already nailed it

Would of been interesting to see him at McLaren in 07 alongside Alonso!

That could have been even worse than the Hamilton partnership, Montoya's relationship with teammates was very poor

Alonso and Montoya were apparently on good terms, as per Montoya...

Montoya thought he'd be better off at McLaren, away from Patrick but he didn't perhaps consider what a sugarplum Ron can be. Montoya also suggested favouritism towards Kimi, which is not too hard to believe. he didn't like being dicked about and he didn't have much choice in '07, so his exit. I fear for one unnamed driver for the very same reason. f1 can suddenly become very cold very very fast, and if you make a bad move, your career ends circling the drain so fast, the mind it boggles.


One guy fails to be able to cope with his bosses at both teams he has been. That says more about the employee than the employer in my opinion. Careers do fade fast and like with Montoya I do get the sense Hamilton will not be driving 200 + F1 races. Drivers have often come back from moves down the gird though, Alonso, Schumacher and Prost etc. The most important thing is to continue beating your team mate and turn in a couple of memorable drives.

Head has a bit of a reputation, I don't know if you're aware of the same. Do you want to go down the list of drivers Ron lost as employees? Montoya mentioned bias towards Kimi, what about that? or, is it easy to dismiss it as Montoya himself was also not without flaws. I personally had gherkin poor line managers, in a row... while I maintain that Head and Ron couldn't be half as unprofessional and total jerks as I have known, but it affects morale and consequently drive and performance.


Maybe You could just look at the hundreds of employees who have worked successfully for Mclaren or Williams. To be honest in the recent past there have been few top quality drivers that Ron has lost from poor management and surely every team, every company for that matter will lose employees for any number of reasons. In regards to bias towards Kimi it is something I can well believe and seeing as Montoya ruled himself out of contention for the 2005 season it made sense to put all the eggs in Kimis basket for that year at least and Juan would hardly have been the first driver to have to deal with inferior team mate within a team. I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.


Mikey, the two names in bold have lost some of the best drivers ever, for some reason or another: Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, Kimi Raikonnen, Damon Hill, and the list goes on and on


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:44 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.


Mikey, the two names in bold have lost some of the best drivers ever, for some reason or another: Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, Kimi Raikonnen, Damon Hill, and the list goes on and on

As far as Willaims were concerned, Prost was replaced by Senna, Piquet couldn't hack it against Mansell, Mansell left the first time because Williams lost their engine deal and performance, the second time he was replaced by Prost, Hill was sacked because he allowed Schumacher to win the 1995 WDC in an inferior car.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:54 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.


Mikey, the two names in bold have lost some of the best drivers ever, for some reason or another: Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, Kimi Raikonnen, Damon Hill, and the list goes on and on


Williams I agree have a poor record of keeping good drivers happy. Mclaren I think have a pretty good history of having a good relationship with drivers. All drivers leave teams in the end for one reason or another.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.


Mikey, the two names in bold have lost some of the best drivers ever, for some reason or another: Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, Kimi Raikonnen, Damon Hill, and the list goes on and on


Williams I agree have a poor record of keeping good drivers happy. Mclaren I think have a pretty good history of having a good relationship with drivers. All drivers leave teams in the end for one reason or another.


I don't think McLaren loses drivers because of RD or anything in particular. McLaren is an extremely corporate organization by any standards. That environment might not suit a driver who just likes to race, which is actually most drivers. McLaren seems to run with a set of very tight guidelines and probably has many restrictions/constraints that other teams don't.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:08 pm 
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I watched an interview sometime back of Prost after he retired where he spoke of his rivalry with Senna during the Mclaren years. He said, the reason why he left Mclaren for Ferrari because at one point he felt Ron was favouring Senna. He spoke of many other instances why he felt that. Thats when half way through the season he announced he was moving to ferrari. After that when one day for some race he came to pits and found that in his side of the garage he had only 5 guys working on his car whereas Senna had 23 guys work on his. That, he said was the breaking point.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:10 pm 
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I know i am digressing from the point here but thats just something that came to mind when people were talking about relationship with Ron and Williams

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
I watched an interview sometime back of Prost after he retired where he spoke of his rivalry with Senna during the Mclaren years. He said, the reason why he left Mclaren for Ferrari because at one point he felt Ron was favouring Senna. He spoke of many other instances why he felt that. Thats when half way through the season he announced he was moving to ferrari. After that when one day for some race he came to pits and found that in his side of the garage he had only 5 guys working on his car whereas Senna had 23 guys work on his. That, he said was the breaking point.


typical of any workplace

they will do whatever they feel like, as long as they can get away with it


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:17 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
Why did he quit? Well, who could stand Ron Dennis for too long? Only Ayrton Senna could.

I dunno, I never read Mika Hakkinen stayed a long while and I never read of any ill will towards them.

I am not keen on Dennis myself, there is just something smug about him. I miss Montoya more than any other driver who left F1 in the past decade. A tad more luck and a bit more calmer attitude and he would have been Champion in 2003. I felt he was the fastest driver on the grid in 2003, Schumi and Kimi were more complete though.

He may have been hard work and very hard to please, but as pointed out Dennis has form in isolating himself from drivers, as some of top drivers have left him on bad terms. Plus, Montoya splitting from Williams was overhyped, whilst they had issues Juan himself said it was the money from McLaren that made him leave not any issues at Williams.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Montoya's combustible nature didn't help him with people like Sam Michael, Patrick Head and Ron Dennis but he talks highly and appears to have good relationships with people such as Frank Williams and Chip Gannasi.

When he was on it, I reckon he was at least on a par with Kimi & Schumi but inconsistency was his achilles heel. Despite having a good shout for the 2003 championship, he was unable to play the F1 game and maximise the package available to him.

On a side note, I read somewhere that as JPM's career will be longer in NASCAR, he stands to earn more than if he stayed in F1.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
lamo wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Montoya had a poor first half of 2005. He matched Kimi in the second half but then in 2006 he was just terrible, worse than ever for Mclaren. I would quite like to have seen him in the other RBR seat with DC but I don't think David would have liked that and JPM wouldn't want to drive around in a midfield car.

I think NASCAR lifestyle just suits Juan better. He doesn't have to worry about his weight and fitness anywhere near as much and he gets to live in the US, where he did a lot of his early racing and is much closer to Colombia.


He did not match Kimi in the second half of 2005. Not even close. He was actually closer to Kimi in 2006.

He won three races in 2005, two of which Kimi had pole but got demoted to 11th. The only race he was near Kimi's pace was in Brazil and Spa.


Canada he was ahead and could have won but for the safety car.
Kimi had a damaged steering box the entire race. Limped home to win

France he was pretty much on Kimi's pace although slightly slower.
A lot slower, Kimi had more fuel and was still 1 second quicker in qualifying and still might have beaten Montoya even though he had a 10 place grid penalty.

Hungary again he was pretty much on Kimi's pace.
Kimi made a mistake in qualifying allowing JPM to out qualify him. But he got him at the start and JPM was never in contention to win, it was Schumacher and Raikkonen fighting for that.

Monza he was only a 10th behind in qualy and did what he had to do to win the race.
Seriously!? 1 tenth behind with Kimi carrying 5 laps more fuel and one stopping, while JPM was 2 stopping. Kimi still would have won it if not for a puncture.

Silverstone Kimi may have been quicker but Montoya wasn't exactly slow and beat pole sitter Alonso fair and square.
We are comparing Kimi to JPM. JPM was good that race, but Kimi was much faster once in clean air catching the front pair at over 0.5 per lap. Just ran out of laps.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:02 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
Alonso and Montoya were apparently on good terms, as per Montoya...

Montoya thought he'd be better off at McLaren, away from Patrick but he didn't perhaps consider what a sugarplum Ron can be. Montoya also suggested favouritism towards Kimi, which is not too hard to believe. he didn't like being dicked about and he didn't have much choice in '07, so his exit. I fear for one unnamed driver for the very same reason. f1 can suddenly become very cold very very fast, and if you make a bad move, your career ends circling the drain so fast, the mind it boggles.


One guy fails to be able to cope with his bosses at both teams he has been. That says more about the employee than the employer in my opinion. Careers do fade fast and like with Montoya I do get the sense Hamilton will not be driving 200 + F1 races. Drivers have often come back from moves down the gird though, Alonso, Schumacher and Prost etc. The most important thing is to continue beating your team mate and turn in a couple of memorable drives.

Head has a bit of a reputation, I don't know if you're aware of the same. Do you want to go down the list of drivers Ron lost as employees? Montoya mentioned bias towards Kimi, what about that? or, is it easy to dismiss it as Montoya himself was also not without flaws. I personally had gherkin poor line managers, in a row... while I maintain that Head and Ron couldn't be half as unprofessional and total jerks as I have known, but it affects morale and consequently drive and performance.


Maybe You could just look at the hundreds of employees who have worked successfully for Mclaren or Williams. To be honest in the recent past there have been few top quality drivers that Ron has lost from poor management and surely every team, every company for that matter will lose employees for any number of reasons. In regards to bias towards Kimi it is something I can well believe and seeing as Montoya ruled himself out of contention for the 2005 season it made sense to put all the eggs in Kimis basket for that year at least and Juan would hardly have been the first driver to have to deal with inferior team mate within a team. I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.

It is not proper to compare employees who have a very short span within the sport, to some other employees. Their careers are capped at best a decade or so, thus it would be wrong to draw parallels with other employees, unless you may be work with percentages of time.

About Ron. Some people are proper dicks. Ron has delved in his fair share of dickery. Didn't Mosley also famously say that "McLaren were penalised $5 million rest was for Ron being a sugarplum"? That is but one example... Alonso also suggested that he left as Ron was making things untenable, and had little or no problems with Lewis. Prost isn't too kind either...

About Head... i have read very little. Mostly whinging from JV comes to mind, but i haven't really heard/ read many complaints from people, but just that he's a lot demanding. He's got a reputation for that, and every article i read about the man, it included a paragraph to that effect. I wonder what Head did with other drivers :D i would love to read more.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:40 am 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Maybe You could just look at the hundreds of employees who have worked successfully for Mclaren or Williams. To be honest in the recent past there have been few top quality drivers that Ron has lost from poor management and surely every team, every company for that matter will lose employees for any number of reasons. In regards to bias towards Kimi it is something I can well believe and seeing as Montoya ruled himself out of contention for the 2005 season it made sense to put all the eggs in Kimis basket for that year at least and Juan would hardly have been the first driver to have to deal with inferior team mate within a team. I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.

It is not proper to compare employees who have a very short span within the sport, to some other employees. Their careers are capped at best a decade or so, thus it would be wrong to draw parallels with other employees, unless you may be work with percentages of time.

About Ron. Some people are proper dicks. Ron has delved in his fair share of dickery. Didn't Mosley also famously say that "McLaren were penalised $5 million rest was for Ron being a sugarplum"? That is but one example... Alonso also suggested that he left as Ron was making things untenable, and had little or no problems with Lewis. Prost isn't too kind either...

About Head... i have read very little. Mostly whinging from JV comes to mind, but i haven't really heard/ read many complaints from people, but just that he's a lot demanding. He's got a reputation for that, and every article i read about the man, it included a paragraph to that effect. I wonder what Head did with other drivers :D i would love to read more.

I think it's probably a personality clash/incompatility with the environment rather than fault related to one party.

Dennis had good relationships with some drivers such as Hakkinen and Raikkonen, but less so with the more fiery prima-donna types of Alonso, Senna, Prost and Montoya. I suspect that the same is probably true of Head. I have read and also had confirmed from a friend who worked at Williams that Frank Williams and Patrick Head very much treated their drivers as just employees rather than anything more significant or special, which is something that some drivers will cope with and others with a different temperament won't.

By contrast, I do wonder how Montoya would have fared had he been somewhere like Ferrari with #1 status and the support that goes with that.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:33 am 
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Too inconsistent. Fast at times, but you sometimes would wait for him to throw it off the track. I wish he'd stayed, but he didn't perform well enough to land a top seat, and I believe he's getting paid pretty well now in NASCAR. He's a nice guy, and was at the Miami Heat game Tuesday. PEACE.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:43 am 
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He made a foolish decision to leave. I rememeber that Honda and Redbull were interested in him, and its highly possible he would have won a wdc if he joined them. He claimed he was not interested in fighting about in 6th postion, so he joined nascar and has spent the last 5 years fighting for 20th position lol. He had a special talent which he wasted by a stupid decision to leave F1 n his prime, and right before the regulation changes back to slicks that he would have loved and suited his style. I always felt he never fully adapted to silly grooved tyres. Such a waste.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:26 pm 
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I think people judge him harshly. He raced in a period where the right pit strategy was the common road to winning. He was quick when he first came to F1, but after realising where F1 was going (and in a time when many punters just switched off) he lost his mojo. I can't blame him really. So many of those seasons were bore fests.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I have nothing against Montoya and nothing for Ron Dennis or Patrick Head but if a man can't rub a long with either of his bosses then his personality has to shoulder ;) some of the blame.


Mikey, the two names in bold have lost some of the best drivers ever, for some reason or another: Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, Kimi Raikonnen, Damon Hill, and the list goes on and on


Williams I agree have a poor record of keeping good drivers happy. Mclaren I think have a pretty good history of having a good relationship with drivers. All drivers leave teams in the end for one reason or another.


They also both failed to attract the services of Michael Schumacher in the mid-90s.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:53 pm 
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purchville wrote:
I think people judge him harshly. He raced in a period where the right pit strategy was the common road to winning. He was quick when he first came to F1, but after realising where F1 was going (and in a time when many punters just switched off) he lost his mojo. I can't blame him really. So many of those seasons were bore fests.


2005 was a bore fest. 2006 was slightly more exciting.

But wasn't the punters switching off time supposed to be during Schumacher's endless dominance? Montoya left just as that was coming to an end.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
2005 was a bore fest.

I can't help but wonder how many fans would agree with that; to me it was one of the few seasons truly worth watching so far this century.

I also can't help but wonder how disappointed with F1 Montoya became, once it must have been clear to him that it it's an industrial circus rather than a sport.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Montoya was avery fast, competitive driver. He joined McLaren when Kimi had already been there for three very succesful seasons. To come in to a new team and have that shoulder injury was not a good start for any driver; yet Monty came back and scored three wins. In 2006 when the McLaren was not as competitive, he scored a second and a third place. Comparing his times against Kimi's he was not far off, about where Button has been vs Hamilton. Yet no-one says Hamilton 'destroyed' Button.

There are many drivers in GP history who, like JPM, were very talented, won races but never got to a dominant position: Keke Rosberg, Pace, Gilles Villeneuve, Amon, Peterson, Brooks and Gonzalez coming to mind. None of them can be written off as second-rate, and according to my stats they all raced within 0.2 to 0.3 of the top driver/s of their day. Surtees is another who due to circumstances (car/team) never got to a dominannt position. Of them all he was the fastest, Clark's equal in the years 1961-1966. Unless a driver becomes dominant, he seems to be downgraded in perceptions

JP and Ralf were both very talented fast drivers; in their first Williams season 2001, Ralf was faster, as JP said at the time, 'Ralf has much more experience than me'. Thereafter they were within fractions of each other throughout their 2002-2004 seasons at Williams. Ten wins in those four seasons against the Ferrari team (then probably the most succesful team in F1) and the McLarens eight wins, was some achievement.

Having said all this in support of JPM, I do agree that he let his emotions make decisions on impulse; the Williams team were not against him. Imo he would have been ideal in a one-car team, like Stirling Moss was. Patrick Head reckoned that Mansell and Montoya were difficult to manage because they each felt that any team attention not on them, was against them!

JP made one of F1s best moves in his debut year when he overtook Michael at Interlagos, in just his third F1 race. What a driver. I agree with posters who also miss him almost more than any other.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Very fair breakdown above from POB.

I think he had it in him to be world champion. If I could go back in history and change a few things in F1, I would have made either Kimi or Juan be teamates with Schumi from 2002-2004. I think the sport would have benefited so much from that.

I felt 2005 was a decent year, 2002 and 2004 are the real snoozefests with how dominant Ferrari was. 2004 is probably the worst with how good 2003 was before it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
2005 was a bore fest.

I can't help but wonder how many fans would agree with that; to me it was one of the few seasons truly worth watching so far this century.

I agree with it. Suzuka was an epic race and the Nurburgring was nail-biting at the end, but other than that 2005 was largely forgettable for me. It speaks volumes that the tyre regs were changed back again after that one season.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:13 pm 
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Indy 2006 has been mentioned, so I looked it up on youtube as my memory isn't good enough to recall specific incidents from that long ago.

Exciting stuff. Heidfeld's crash looks spectacular and he makes it out like it was just a bit of a giggle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBApgIFYQ2E


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:17 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
I think he had it in him to be world champion. If I could go back in history and change a few things in F1, I would have made either Kimi or Juan be teamates with Schumi from 2002-2004. I think the sport would have benefited so much from that.
I doubt Kimi or Juan Pablo would be very interested in being demoted to the rôle of number 2 driver.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
I think he had it in him to be world champion. If I could go back in history and change a few things in F1, I would have made either Kimi or Juan be teamates with Schumi from 2002-2004. I think the sport would have benefited so much from that.
I doubt Kimi or Juan Pablo would be very interested in being demoted to the rôle of number 2 driver.

I should have added, with the chance to be on fairly level pegging inside the team. It would have never happened I know, but if it would be something I would have liked to have seen.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:59 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Very fair breakdown above from POB.
I think he had it in him to be world champion. If I could go back in history and change a few things in F1, I would have made either Kimi or Juan be teamates with Schumi from 2002-2004. I think the sport would have benefited so much from that.

I felt 2005 was a decent year, 2002 and 2004 are the real snoozefests with how dominant Ferrari was. 2004 is probably the worst with how good 2003 was before it.

That idea wouldnt fly with Kimi or JPM becuase everyone then knew Michael contract had a clause that he was going to be the No 1 driver. Kimi didnt have it. But then his working style it different. Alonso too has the same clause I think. It works well for them that way. Focusing on 1 driver

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Very fair breakdown above from POB.
I think he had it in him to be world champion. If I could go back in history and change a few things in F1, I would have made either Kimi or Juan be teamates with Schumi from 2002-2004. I think the sport would have benefited so much from that.

I felt 2005 was a decent year, 2002 and 2004 are the real snoozefests with how dominant Ferrari was. 2004 is probably the worst with how good 2003 was before it.

That idea wouldnt fly with Kimi or JPM becuase everyone then knew Michael contract had a clause that he was going to be the No 1 driver. Kimi didnt have it. But then his working style it different. Alonso too has the same clause I think. It works well for them that way. Focusing on 1 driver

That is why I put "under equal terms in my next post"

I understand my "what if" situation would have never happened for various reasons, but with talk of how dull certain seasons were in this time-frame, I think that would have been something that would have spiced things up.

Whilst I do not hold it against Michael for maximizing his chances like some do, F1 would have been more fun if some of his advantages were taken away from 2002-2004. His number 1 drivers clause being one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:47 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Race2win wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Very fair breakdown above from POB.
I think he had it in him to be world champion. If I could go back in history and change a few things in F1, I would have made either Kimi or Juan be teamates with Schumi from 2002-2004. I think the sport would have benefited so much from that.

I felt 2005 was a decent year, 2002 and 2004 are the real snoozefests with how dominant Ferrari was. 2004 is probably the worst with how good 2003 was before it.

That idea wouldnt fly with Kimi or JPM becuase everyone then knew Michael contract had a clause that he was going to be the No 1 driver. Kimi didnt have it. But then his working style it different. Alonso too has the same clause I think. It works well for them that way. Focusing on 1 driver

That is why I put "under equal terms in my next post"

I understand my "what if" situation would have never happened for various reasons, but with talk of how dull certain seasons were in this time-frame, I think that would have been something that would have spiced things up.

Whilst I do not hold it against Michael for maximizing his chances like some do, F1 would have been more fun if some of his advantages were taken away from 2002-2004. His number 1 drivers clause being one of them.


Do we actually know there was one? Eddie Irvine was favouring Schumacher on a contractual basis. But he left after the 1999 season. Sure Rubens moved over for Michael when Michael was far ahead in the championship, and Michael got some new parts first, but this is no different to Alonso and Felipe.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Montoya quit F1 to race bikes.

Image

:D

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Raquello wrote:
Montoya quit F1 to race bikes.

Image

:D


thats funny - i was gonna say cause he could n't get in one any more - remember mansell , they remade a wider tub , and he only done a few races with it , and quit.....maybe it goes with older ballsy drivers - a bit more in the middle :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Do we actually know there was one?

We don't, but 2002 showed us there's no need to see the actual document, didn't it?
Anyway, Imola 2004 or Malaysia 2002 would have ended differently had Juan Pablo and Schumacher been teammates. A bit like Piquet versus Salazar, I imagine! :D

Raquello, :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:50 pm 
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j man wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
2005 was a bore fest.

I can't help but wonder how many fans would agree with that; to me it was one of the few seasons truly worth watching so far this century.

I agree with it. Suzuka was an epic race and the Nurburgring was nail-biting at the end, but other than that 2005 was largely forgettable for me. It speaks volumes that the tyre regs were changed back again after that one season.


yep overall 2005 was very boring. Suzuka was extremely good , Nurburgring had a good finish, and Imola was quite good as well. but that's only 3 races and only Suzuka was really good. the other two...only comparatively. i supported Alonso and he won the championship and yet I don't want a season like that to repeat. it was only better than 2004 because one guy didn't win all the races. but other than that 2005 is the worst season I have seen since starting to watch F1 in 2003.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:08 pm 
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2005 boring? I must have watched the Bollywood version of those races, in full colour.

Kimi making up those four grid penalties to score a win, a second and a third and scoring a total of seven wins. Alonso winning seven races too for Renault. Monty recovering from his shoulder injury to score three wins. Fisi winning once for Renault with two more podiums ....

One of the closest and best two-team battles in F1 history, and the emergence of two more great drivers: Raikkonen and Alonso.

Unfortunate that Maranello-Bridgestone did not get things right. Only Ferrari/Schumacher fans could have been bored.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:02 am 
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You are missing the main reason montoya felt that way and why he gave up, which is because Kimi kicked his donkey. He lost confidence in his ability and the sport is no longer fun when your getting your donkey kicked all the time. If he has been beating Kimi he would have never left. Montoya was an arrogant guy who thought he was the best, and when he realised he wasn't he gave up. The issues you mentioned are just the side effects of the main issue.[/quote]



Oh geez. Do you even read what you write?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Montoya was the only guy that could hold a candle to Schumacher one on one,he was a great driver but was very unpolitical and undiplomatic.

On his day he was faster than Schumacher never mind Kimi.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:27 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Very fair breakdown above from POB.

Indeed, very good post. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:46 pm 
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smoothcrim wrote:
Montoya was the only guy that could hold a candle to Schumacher one on one,he was a great driver but was very unpolitical and undiplomatic.

On his day he was faster than Schumacher never mind Kimi.

Montoya is barely the equivalent of Ralf Schumacher. In fact Ralf won more races than him at Williams ( 6 victories vs 4 for Montaya) and Ralf edged him in the qualifying teammate battle (32 - 29 ).

At Mclaren he was thoroughly beaten by Kimi...

Montoya was way overhyped. He failed to meet the expectations so he left...


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