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I have no problem acknowledging that Räikkönen was probably the fastest man in F1 from 2002 onwards. But if you really think Montoya was barely the equivalent of Ralf Schumacher, how does that "fact" reflect on McLaren? After all, he had been with Williams for four years before he went there.
From memory, I can't name another driver who gave Schumacher (Michael, that is) exactly the amount of respect he merited and no more. And I believe you're forgetting he was a title contender in 2003; one of two drivers Ferrari "needed" to counter with Tyregate.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

I know you like him but Raikonen was never the fastest guy in F1. Massa in Ferrari and now Grosjean proved that is and was never the case.

Massa got more points, more poles , wins and points at Ferrari compared to Kimi. Massa edged the qualifying matchup too. Massa was faster but Kimi was better racer and overall they were close...

As for tyregate that is Michelin's doing. Tyres deforming to 286 mm instead of 270mm and thus the increased contact patch giving Michelin teams unfair advantage...

Oh dear.

Raikkonen was the fastest man in F1 from 2003-2007. Then Hamilton came along and stole his crown. Before Raikkonen was Hakkinen. Before him was Senna. But fastest doesn't always mean the best.

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I would not say Hakkinen was faster then Schumi, I am a big Hakkinen fan but in terms of pure speed I would say they were around equal.

I actually think Kimi was at least equal to Schumi from 2003-2006 as an all round driver. Just that in 2004 and 2006 he did not have the car to reflect it. Alonso I also felt was equal to both by 2006.

I am a massive Montoya fan, but I think he falls short of the above 3 in terms of being a all rounder. After the first year where he learned the ropes, Juan grew to be better than Ralf.

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All Time Favorite: Ayrton Senna

Others: Damon Hill
Montoya

Current: Lewis Hamilition

Compared to Grosjean I'd say Kimi did very well, having had no single-seater driving in a few years.
Compared to Massa, well, Kimi became WDC at Ferrari, Massa did not. And let's not forget Ferrari's hidden agenda for 2008.

I am happy that some people are convinced that Ferrari did have a hidden agenda in 2008 and that they know what that agenda was, but please let's not state it as a proven fact, because it isn't.

Equally, I don't think that it can be stated as a fact that Raikkonen was the fastest man in F1, but he certainly has enough merits to be considered an option for that title.

Allright, fair enough. I do consider Ferrari paying Kimi not to race (that's proven, right?) pretty much proof of fishy stuff going on there. But everybody should indeed judge for their own.

I'm just saying Kimi's performances in 2008 weren't necessarily the best he could have achieved.

If you don't mind, I'll just take Räikkönen equalling the world record for fastest laps in a season of F1 that year, as a good indicator of speed rather than ice-cream eating capacity.

I'm also a bit surprised to see there are still people who believe the Ferrari/Bridgestone Tyregate ploy. Ah well...

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

Montoya was almost wdc in 2003, but unfortunately was shafted by the stewards in to many races that year.He killed Ralf that season,and took it right up to Schu and Kimi who both had better cars.

You just read stats,i doubt u ever watched him race cause if u did, and your a true race fan, you would appreciate how good he was.

In their drivers line-up for 2003, Autosport wrote this about Juan Pablo Montoya:

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota

The Ferrari is debatable but there is no way the Mclaren was a better car than the Williams. 203 was a strange year for car performance but in the races where the Williams was the superior car it was often a lot better than the competition. Montoya was very quick that year but he still was not head and shoulders above Ralf who was having a decent tittle run himself until he was out injured in Monza. Before the first lap crash in Germany which took out 3 lead cars Ralf was only 2 points behind Juan. Thats 2 points with 5 races to go. Hardly being "killed"

The stats dont always tell the story though,in most races Monty was far superior i thought and Ralf was hardly as bad as people make him out to be, especially earlier in his career he drove very well.

Im not a big fan of either but Montoya had that special something u need to be WDC he just couldnt harness it most years and was unlucky in 2003.I enjoyed watching him.

As far as the cars go,i thought the Mclaren and Ferrari were overall better cars than the Williams especially in the aero department,braking,mid corner speed but the Williams had more horsepower.The 2003 BMW motor had great top end.

San Marion onwards the Williams was faster than the Mclaren at almost every track. I agree with most of what you have written but I cannot agree that Montoya was far superior. Better for sure but it was close. One thing I am going to do though is re watch some races from that season because this conversation has reminded me why it remains one of my favorite years.

I concur with that although it was thought at one time that Kimi was the fastest driver in F1 after the 2005 season i would say helped by having the fastest car and beating the highly rated Montoya, 2002 onwards i wouldn't think so, beating DC in itself wouldn't be considered proof of that, certainly present history would suggest that perhaps was never the case.

This of course then had the opposite effect of demoting Montoya from being rated up there with the fastest down to second tier, generally speaking i think he showed he was better than Ralf but it was fairly close between the two.

In todays grid with the drivers that are around now if Montoya was still there you would have to consider him top 10 at best, and since he's left F1 i would say he's been somewhat disappointing in NASCAR

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No i would say the ascendecy to the crown would be Senna, Schumacher and Alonso, then Hamilton and Vettel came along to challenge Alonso and now its open to debate although Alonso continues more or less to top the driver polls

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I guess you'd have to include 2009 in your hidden agenda theory as well because Massa was still beating Kimi until he got injured

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2009, hidden? Ferrari contracted Alonso during the 2008 season, I honestly can't blame Kimi for losing interest.

During the time Kimi was having poor results, he was the toast in LDM's eye after the 2007 season

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I can agree with that.

People also forget in the last race when Juan's car broke down, he was well in the lead and would have matched Schumi on points if he would have finished first. Schumi would have taken the title with more wins and still had one point over Kimi, but that is how close the top 3 were right until the end.

All 3 that year were fantastic and it is one of my favorite seasons ever.

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All Time Favorite: Ayrton Senna

Others: Damon Hill
Montoya

Current: Lewis Hamilition

I vaguely remember that season where Schumacher had a lot of problems early in the season but ended up with by far the most wins winning 6 races to Montoya's 2 wins, and this was Montoya's best season ever?

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for at least the 1,000th time... PROOF of this Please! You don't have it, nor does anyone else here. You can think it, you can suspect it, but you do NOT know it.

Michael was #1 at Ferrari, no question... because he was the better driver.

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He didn't kill Ralf, Ralf overall was the fastest thing that year, but made too many mistakes in the closing stages as well as a couple of unlucky incidents.

Schumacher had a puncture in Hockenheim costing him 6 points as well as a fuel problem in Hungary that cost him a few points, so it wasn't perfect. Meanwhile Montoya lost 8 or so points in Austria to an engine problem.

In Japan, yes Montoya lost the win, while the fastest laps were being traded between the Schumacher brothers, who were only running at the back because it rained heavily on their qualifying laps, dropping them to the back. They had been the quickest two people that weekend but they had bad luck. So in a sense it was Montoya who was lucky.

To be fair Montoya got 5 2nd places and a few 3rds. That is pretty impressive with his additional 2 wins, that is 10 podiums in a year.

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All Time Favorite: Ayrton Senna

Others: Damon Hill
Montoya

Current: Lewis Hamilition

Schumacher had a puncture in Hockenheim costing him 6 points as well as a fuel problem in Hungary that cost him a few points, so it wasn't perfect. Meanwhile Montoya lost 8 or so points in Austria to an engine problem.

In Japan, yes Montoya lost the win, while the fastest laps were being traded between the Schumacher brothers, who were only running at the back because it rained heavily on their qualifying laps, dropping them to the back. They had been the quickest two people that weekend but they had bad luck. So in a sense it was Montoya who was lucky.[/quote]

I think Juan would take being at the back and having a chance to claw his way through the field, rather than his engine blowing up whilst in the lead.

I agree though, they all had peaks and valleys with their luck all year. It was a rollercoaster.

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All Time Favorite: Ayrton Senna

Others: Damon Hill
Montoya

Current: Lewis Hamilition

By my ratings measurement system Montoya and Ralf were very fast drivers. using my base figure of 100.0 for the fastest:
In 2003 I have Michael at 100.0, Barrichello and Montoya next at 100.2, Ralf and Raikkonen at 100.3, Alonso at 100.4.
In 2004 MSC at 100.0; Barri, Monty, Ralf, Raikknen and Alonso next and all equal at 100.2
in 2005: MSC, Raikkonen and Alonso equal at 100.0; next Monty 100.3 (slowed by tennis elbow) and being in new team; next tied at 100.4 Trulli, Wurz, Fisi and Button; then Barri demotivated by MSC/Ferrari to 100.5 equal with Ralf slowed (overpaid) at Toyota, also dropped to 100.5.

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There were articles in the press during the Monaco weekend that Alonso had been signed during that same weekend. Raikkonen was at that time leading the WDC with thusfar two wins, two podiums and a retirement from a rare (for ferrari) engine problem.

Yes but still only 2 wins, Ralf had 2 wins as well

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Yes, but Juan had 10 podiums to Ralf's 3. Over triple the amount. Juan was way more consistent that year.

Clearly Juan was on cracking form that year. If you count wins as the be all and end all, fair enough he maybe should have won more. But for that one year at least he was world class and just as or nearly as good as Schumi and Kimi.

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All Time Favorite: Ayrton Senna

Others: Damon Hill
Montoya

Current: Lewis Hamilition

I see everyone has forgotten that Montoya threw away victory in Australia by spinning on his own while leading late in the race.

It wasn't just bad luck that hurt his chances. He hurt himself as well.

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True he did make mistakes, but for the most part of the year he was fantastic by any standard.

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All Time Favorite: Ayrton Senna

Others: Damon Hill
Montoya

Current: Lewis Hamilition

Well any contract signed could have only been for 2011 onwards, an option was taken up on Kimi's Ferrari contract later that year to extend it to 2010.

Also with regards to Kimi's results, Massa's results were hardly any worse upto Monaco with 2 wins and one podium, no drive can be guaranteed for ever.

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Well i do remember one year where he stood out so it was probably that year

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I can't believe JPM only won 4 races at Williams and only 7 in total. Nearly half coming in 2005 (3).

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Thats true but have there not been articles in the press already saying Vettel has signed a pre contract agreement? What I mean is it is not unusual for the press to report things that are not quite true.

All correct, but worth noting that the contract extension was almost certainly invoked by Raikkonen based upon a peformance clause in his contract. He still finished 3rd in the WDC. It was after the Monaco weekend that his form started to drop significantly, he was still in contention until Spa but no more wins, compared to Massa's 4.
For all the fanboys' he 'doesn't care about the other stuff' talk, I suspect that mds is correct.

How do you know that it isnt done?
And it depends upon which press you read. I tend to trust and respect Joe Saward above everyone else, and he along with a few others are not saying that the rumours are either true, likely, or even make sense. Maybe it's just the year that the rumours have wrong. But then again Hamilton and Mercedes still doesn't make sense.

I've gone too far off topic twice now, returning on topic, my guess would be that Montoya left for the same reason Raikkonen did.

Montoya got 9 podiums to Ralf's 3. He did have easily more points. Ralf had a lot of 4th places.

Ralf had just won 2 races in a row after winning in France and was 6 points ahead of Montoya when he had an unbelievably bad rest of the season, being only 12th in the championship over a dismal last 6 races.

To sum up, spun off and damaged car, whilst running strongly. Took fuel corrected pole (P2) but crashed at first corner with Kimi. 4th after effective pole (P2 behind fumes Webber) and disastrous start from dirty grid slot. Car problem in testing puts him in the barriers at 150mph and he's out of the next race. Running in P2, spins into the barriers his fault. Rain in qualifying on quite a light fuel load leaves him at the back of the grid and he has a messy race.

Driver error, collision, bad luck, bad luck, driver error, bad luck.

So that's where Montoya overtook Ralf that season. Montoya did drive a better season but he wasn't really faster.

I miss Montoya dearly. I was so excited about him moving to F1 with his ballsy "I ain't no weak minded European" arrogance.

And I still haven't forgiven Verstappen for taking him out at Interlagos while leading in only his 3rd GP (Yeah, i know it was raining and he was on Michelins blah blah blah)

But truth be told I think he didn't have the mentality for F1. He wanted to eat pies and he wanted his family around. And while he would give up the pies during the season, he couldn't commit himself to the fitness regime that is required - especially with his unfortunate genes.

I follow him on twitter still and he's as happy as a pig in mud with his lifestyle - a couple of days of racing and straight back home. No need to travel to foreign countries across the planet. No fitness regimes. So NASCAR suits him.

I read an article some time after his first win, and the champagne was about the only thing in his Monaco loungeroom (His first win was just after 9/11 and they didn't spray the champagne) - so he never made Europe his home - it was just a place to sleep while he was "working"

I don't think there was any major falling out at Williams - it was just time to move on - and since Williams haven't done anything brilliant since, it was a good move - Everyone agrees he was never very comfortable at McLaren.

But if he didn't like McLaren he could have stuck it out at a midfield team for a year or two, then gotten a decent drive. Arrgghhh.

He was a nice guy too. Took one of my mates out for dinner once.