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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:44 am 
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http://planetf1.com/news/3213/8505914/-Axed-Drivers-Had-Their-Chance-To-Shine-

Probably true what Martin says although I will still miss Kobayashi. In the past with more seats available it was easier to make a comeback for a driver losing out on a race seat or taking a sabbatical.
It's sad the only one who has a chance of a comeback is Sutil :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:19 am 
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I wont miss any of them, they did nothing all season, the only time Koby was good was in those last 2 races in 2009 or 2010 was it? I mean he had a few years to make his mark and he didn't. Same with the others, Kovy even was in McLaren for a couple years and sucked...

Tbh I'd get rid of the bottom few teams and only have like 14 drivers on the grid or whatever, the teams that have potential to do something in the race. I'm sick of the bottom teams just clogging up the race track and ruining the racing between the front runners. Too often you see someone getting demoted to the back of the grid and then the race is boring as he's like a min behind the front guys. Get rid of the boring slow cars and bring on the racing, the slow teams only ruin drivers careers anyways...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:52 am 
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In some ways Venekor's proposal sounds good: a higher quality field with fewer slow packages for the front-runners to lap/crash into(ahem Piquet snr, A Senna and MSC)!

When I wrote my 1993 analytical book I used a quote from Stirling Moss; he was asked about early nineties F1 racing: "Of course the standard of the midfield is so much higher now, which of course puts more pressure on the front-runners." I analysed this from several aspects, but found that none of the packages behind the top two or three (usually) have any effect on the top results at all. They are just traffic to be lapped. So Venekor is correct.

However we have to remember that such teams as Maserati, Ferrari, BRM, Vanwall, Cooper through to Renault,Williams and Red Bull started as backmarkers. By reducing the field to fewer teams means that the losses (financial retirements) may not be replaceable.

It is too easy to slam backmarkers; Patrick Head admitted to once scornfully asking one of his engineers after they watched a backmarker team struggling with obvious problems "Why on earth do they bother racing?" Years later he realised and admitted he was wrong, that it was because they love racing. He and Frank started like that too. And Enzo Ferrari , Charles and John Cooper, Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren....

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:00 pm 
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This kind of stuff is full of generalisations. You can't group all these drivers in the same way. Much as I like Brundle, he's indulging in a spot of attention grabbing.

There's no escaping that Kobayashi is the best Japanese driver that has ever been in an F1 seat, by some margin. He's not up with Vettel, Hamilton etc, but he's obviously more capable than some of the others lower down the grid. It is important to have a Japanese participating just as it is to have a Brazilian, or a German etc, because that's what gathers the audiences, and corporate finance. He is definitely up to it and it would be good for F1 if he makes it back.

In the case of Kovalainen, I had the impression he worked very hard for Caterham, and the lack of results had more to do with the car than him. Comments from other drivers also indicate that he is rated better than the current situation would indicate. He was fairly consistently the best of the back markers, and I noticed that there is talk of Caterham retaining him to assist with development. They obviously feel they are going to miss him otherwise in the coming year.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:04 pm 
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VENEKOR wrote:
I wont miss any of them, they did nothing all season, the only time Koby was good was in those last 2 races in 2009 or 2010 was it? I mean he had a few years to make his mark and he didn't. Same with the others, Kovy even was in McLaren for a couple years and sucked...

Tbh I'd get rid of the bottom few teams and only have like 14 drivers on the grid or whatever, the teams that have potential to do something in the race. I'm sick of the bottom teams just clogging up the race track and ruining the racing between the front runners. Too often you see someone getting demoted to the back of the grid and then the race is boring as he's like a min behind the front guys. Get rid of the boring slow cars and bring on the racing, the slow teams only ruin drivers careers anyways...


aaahh but not all of us are only in the interested in the battle at the front. Stands to reason that if you have more cars there is more chance for excitement. Plus seeing somebody get demoted to the back and fight there way through is one of the most exciting aspects of a lot of races.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Kobayashi had his chance and was 6 points away from beating his teammate who got a mclaren seat. That's a single 7th placed finish. He at least deserved to be retained by Sauber.

With hindsight, replacing Kovalainen with money actually makes sense. Pic showed he has respectable pace so they shouldn't be worried about him not getting the best from the car, and he brings money. They have more of a chance of moving up the grid with this arrangement than they did using Petrov to pay Kovalainen's wages and having no money left for the car.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Amon wrote:
http://planetf1.com/news/3213/8505914/-Axed-Drivers-Had-Their-Chance-To-Shine-

Probably true what Martin says although I will still miss Kobayashi. In the past with more seats available it was easier to make a comeback for a driver losing out on a race seat or taking a sabbatical.
It's sad the only one who has a chance of a comeback is Sutil :thumbdown:

i don't get this,why is it sad? why do these guys deserve a second shot and not Sutil?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Sorry but Martin is spot on.

Would I like to see Heikki, Rubens, Kamui, etc back? Sure I would. But its quite simply tough fairy cakes.

They had their chance, they didn't shine. Kamui of all people should have done a LOT better if he truly is as good as people here hype him up to be, the fact is that whilst he may be the best Japanese drive, that means absolutely bugger all if the best Japanese driver is slower than every European driver.

None of them really deserved to be on the grid in 2013. It's just a shame that their replacements are paid drives, and not winners of GP2 and other series winners moving up the ranks on talent.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Volantary wrote:
Kobayashi had his chance and was 6 points away from beating his teammate who got a mclaren seat. That's a single 7th placed finish. He at least deserved to be retained by Sauber.

With hindsight, replacing Kovalainen with money actually makes sense. Pic showed he has respectable pace so they shouldn't be worried about him not getting the best from the car, and he brings money. They have more of a chance of moving up the grid with this arrangement than they did using Petrov to pay Kovalainen's wages and having no money left for the car.

Hulkenberg is a better driver than either of the outgoing Sauber drivers. If I was Sauber I would have made exactly the same choice.

While as an F1 fan I will miss Kobayashi being on the grid, it is Sauber's job to choose the drivers who best serve their needs. For their lead driver Hulkenberg is a much better choice than Kobayashi.

The bigger issue with Kobayashi is why, as one of the best Japanese drivers to have raced in F1 and with a huge international fanbase, no Japanese companies recognised the marketing opportunities and backed him with more cash.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:15 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
Amon wrote:
http://planetf1.com/news/3213/8505914/-Axed-Drivers-Had-Their-Chance-To-Shine-

Probably true what Martin says although I will still miss Kobayashi. In the past with more seats available it was easier to make a comeback for a driver losing out on a race seat or taking a sabbatical.
It's sad the only one who has a chance of a comeback is Sutil :thumbdown:

i don't get this,why is it sad? why do these guys deserve a second shot and not Sutil?


He got way more years in F1 than the others. Only in his 4th year he showed he was decent but not really more than a journeyman.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Those drives did nothing and what makes one think the next batch of "drivers" will do any better. You drive a dud so it makes you look like a dud. Look at Perez. Sauber did a little better and so did he. The ones that get "promoted" to the top 4 teams, coming from the "dud" field are the ones that deserves close scrutiny. The bottom 5 or 6 teams are just there to complete the field.
As for all the paid drivers all there. F-1 is a whore sport, so you must pay to play.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:45 pm 
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"I looked at [Esteban] Gutierrez in his overalls [at Jerez] and I thought, 'well that's going to be interesting, how's he going to go?'

"If it had been Kobayashi, you'd pretty much know how he was going to go: he'd be amazing from time to time, pull of a few great overtakes, and be on the missing list for the rest of the season."

Sums it up for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:52 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
In some ways Venekor's proposal sounds good: a higher quality field with fewer slow packages for the front-runners to lap/crash into(ahem Piquet snr, A Senna and MSC)!

When I wrote my 1993 analytical book I used a quote from Stirling Moss; he was asked about early nineties F1 racing: "Of course the standard of the midfield is so much higher now, which of course puts more pressure on the front-runners." I analysed this from several aspects, but found that none of the packages behind the top two or three (usually) have any effect on the top results at all. They are just traffic to be lapped. So Venekor is correct.

However we have to remember that such teams as Maserati, Ferrari, BRM, Vanwall, Cooper through to Renault,Williams and Red Bull started as backmarkers. By reducing the field to fewer teams means that the losses (financial retirements) may not be replaceable.

It is too easy to slam backmarkers; Patrick Head admitted to once scornfully asking one of his engineers after they watched a backmarker team struggling with obvious problems "Why on earth do they bother racing?" Years later he realised and admitted he was wrong, that it was because they love racing. He and Frank started like that too. And Enzo Ferrari , Charles and John Cooper, Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren....

Excellent post.

I'd add that diminishing the number of teams also diminishes the number of places for drivers. A lot of the standout drivers got their chance in the backmarker teams and worked their way up.

It's rare for a driver to be extraordinary when they first get into an F1 car (such as Hamilton) and even the standout drivers take years to reach their best because experience is such a necessary part of development and reaching potential. With less places on the grid either the sport would be very closed off with barely any opportunities for new drivers or the turnover would be much higher as teams gave drivers even less opportunity to prove themselves meaning we'd possibly never see the best of some of the best drivers.

The other part to this is that it has been proven that lower disciplines are not necessarily indicative of F1 performance and it's only once a driver is in the sport and has a chance over a couple of years that we see how good they are going to be in F1. There's every chance we'd not get to see the drivers who are best at F1 because they'd be booted out before a judgement could be made.

IMO also driver development programs of the teams could become even more significant, which would mean that for a driver to make it to F1 at all they'd have to be noticed and nurtured from a young age. That in turn would limit the path to getting to F1 and the pool from which F1 drivers are drawn. At the moment there is a mix of ways to get to the sport: through a driver development program for one of the main teams, by competing in lower disciplines and being a standout and having some potential a lot of financial backing. That increases the pool from which F1 drivers are drawn.

And that brings me back to the thread topic. F1 does have a wide pool from which it draws drivers and unless a driver is a standout the career is likely to be fairly limited. Once they've had two to three years in the sport if they haven't shone then not getting a further go is the rule rather than the exception. Some of those midfield drivers will have longer careers than others and it might not be due to how good they are on track but how much they offer from a development perspective, how well they integrate with a team, just circumstances or finances. Of the drivers who have been axed at the end of 2012 - Kovalainen, Petrov, Kobayashi, Senna - I think they fall into that category.

So long as the best are not being passed over I don't see it as a problem in terms of the sport. It's only IMO when a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso-type driver misses out that I think the sport is in trouble.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:57 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
In some ways Venekor's proposal sounds good: a higher quality field with fewer slow packages for the front-runners to lap/crash into(ahem Piquet snr, A Senna and MSC)!

When I wrote my 1993 analytical book I used a quote from Stirling Moss; he was asked about early nineties F1 racing: "Of course the standard of the midfield is so much higher now, which of course puts more pressure on the front-runners." I analysed this from several aspects, but found that none of the packages behind the top two or three (usually) have any effect on the top results at all. They are just traffic to be lapped. So Venekor is correct.

However we have to remember that such teams as Maserati, Ferrari, BRM, Vanwall, Cooper through to Renault,Williams and Red Bull started as backmarkers. By reducing the field to fewer teams means that the losses (financial retirements) may not be replaceable.

It is too easy to slam backmarkers; Patrick Head admitted to once scornfully asking one of his engineers after they watched a backmarker team struggling with obvious problems "Why on earth do they bother racing?" Years later he realised and admitted he was wrong, that it was because they love racing. He and Frank started like that too. And Enzo Ferrari , Charles and John Cooper, Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren....

Excellent post.

I'd add that diminishing the number of teams also diminishes the number of places for drivers. A lot of the standout drivers got their chance in the backmarker teams and worked their way up.

It's rare for a driver to be extraordinary when they first get into an F1 car (such as Hamilton) and even the standout drivers take years to reach their best because experience is such a necessary part of development and reaching potential. With less places on the grid either the sport would be very closed off with barely any opportunities for new drivers or the turnover would be much higher as teams gave drivers even less opportunity to prove themselves meaning we'd possibly never see the best of some of the best drivers.

The other part to this is that it has been proven that lower disciplines are not necessarily indicative of F1 performance and it's only once a driver is in the sport and has a chance over a couple of years that we see how good they are going to be in F1. There's every chance we'd not get to see the drivers who are best at F1 because they'd be booted out before a judgement could be made.

IMO also driver development programs of the teams could become even more significant, which would mean that for a driver to make it to F1 at all they'd have to be noticed and nurtured from a young age. That in turn would limit the path to getting to F1 and the pool from which F1 drivers are drawn. At the moment there is a mix of ways to get to the sport: through a driver development program for one of the main teams, by competing in lower disciplines and being a standout and having some potential a lot of financial backing. That increases the pool from which F1 drivers are drawn.

And that brings me back to the thread topic. F1 does have a wide pool from which it draws drivers and unless a driver is a standout the career is likely to be fairly limited. Once they've had two to three years in the sport if they haven't shone then not getting a further go is the rule rather than the exception. Some of those midfield drivers will have longer careers than others and it might not be due to how good they are on track but how much they offer from a development perspective, how well they integrate with a team, just circumstances or finances. Of the drivers who have been axed at the end of 2012 - Kovalainen, Petrov, Kobayashi, Senna - I think they fall into that category.

So long as the best are not being passed over I don't see it as a problem in terms of the sport. It's only IMO when a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso-type driver misses out that I think the sport is in trouble.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

Spot on, as is Brundle. Ok it may hurt to see a driver you like leave F1 but if they aren't good enough then that's just life.

Kobayashi was a sparkling midfield driver and that's it. When push came to shove he wasn't good enough. He didn't have that spark Perez had and only really had one weekend where it all came together, Japan. (ok Spa could have but it didn't). Perez had three times as many podiums, that's the difference between a very good driver and a good driver in the same car.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Had a chance?

I'm going to be honest right now... I think Koboyashi should have recieved one more shot at least.

It was a seven point difference and a couple of podiums can really make a difference with finacial backing which is why Perez retained a seat at Mclaren? Really right? It was a seven point difference between them and even after the damn podiums and with contract talks made Perez look EXTREMELY freaking average for the rest of 2012. I'm not saying because I do not have a bias for Kamui, but being beaten by his teammate for the first time, well 2011 is sort of a wash considering Sergio was out for a couple of races. Still, he was still beaten like everyone else and then because of the lack of funding it makes it impossible for him to get a competitive seat.

Glock should have been out of F1 since 2010. Di Grassi, D'Ambrosiso, and now Pic should have all recieved another shot because Glock was hardly a damn meterstick anymore. His teammate record was crap and he was average. Yet, he still received more chances with Marussia and now look, he's out of F1 in DTM. He should have been out years ago.

Petrov is better than what people acredit him for. I do not care what anybody says about the Russian, he has too much potential to be out of F1. Caterham was Kova's team and always was. He went in there and it took time, but come the second half of the season he was beating Kova on a regular basis. Yet, he is out of F1 because think he lost a LOT of sponsorship during the 2011 season. That R30 was a damn crutch after the first five races or so. With development being so damn limited and I think he deserves another shot. Of course, people bring up 2010 and blah, but no one thought he could score points in the damn first place against Kubica. He deserves a midfield seat again because what I see is a man who is hungry as I have ever seen. Petrov was an underdog in the majority of his career and I think he deserves a seat with Marussia, I would have loved to see him against Maldonado and Petrov at Williams would be freaking fireworks.

So, many other drivers I can think of that do deserve another shot, but will not get it. I can agree with Brundle with F1 being a business, but you can't do anything but to say "What could have happened with this or that guy, if he/she receieved another shot." Thats how I feel about a lot of drivers because even though they are drivers, they are human and have mouths to feed themselves.

Say what you want, but everyone deserves another shot at anything. I'm an open and quite optimistic. If, we can open the door for Schumi again, it can be done for anyone else. Okay, so he's a 7-time WDC. Okay, he's human as well and his comeback was average at best. I want to see some more new blood in the forth coming future, but still it is a hard pill to swallow. It was hard last season to see the field without Rubino for sometime. Wait until we see guys like Jenson, Fernando, Felipe, Lewis, and others get in that similar situation. Its going to be hard, but it is a business in the end and the world does not revlove around the drivers, but the same teams will exist.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:44 pm 
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He's right. They had their chance to find massive personal financial backing and the blew it...

Sure, if you get a drive you have a chance to let your talent shine through, but these days you have to shine like a frikin supernova to survive on talent alone. And ironically, it's probably drivers a bit like Brundle was during his F1 career that are suffering most.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:45 pm 
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OutKast wrote:
Had a chance?

I'm going to be honest right now... I think Koboyashi should have recieved one more shot at least.

It was a seven point difference and a couple of podiums can really make a difference with finacial backing which is why Perez retained a seat at Mclaren? Really right? It was a seven point difference between them and even after the damn podiums and with contract talks made Perez look EXTREMELY freaking average for the rest of 2012. I'm not saying because I do not have a bias for Kamui, but being beaten by his teammate for the first time, well 2011 is sort of a wash considering Sergio was out for a couple of races. Still, he was still beaten like everyone else and then because of the lack of funding it makes it impossible for him to get a competitive seat.


KK had his chance yes, he was at Sauber for 3 seasons and rarely showed the same 'spark' that we see in top drivers. The difference between him and Perez is he is older, has more experience, and was actually getting paid by Sauber to race. To me that would seem he would have more pressure on him to do well and score good consistent points, but tbh he rarely ever did well, sure a point or two is nice, but 10th place is still 10th place. Not to mention he's had his share of incidents. I can honestly say that Perez impressed me more last season than KK ever has, and Sauber were right to replace him with Hulkenberg, that was a great move by them. I'm not saying he's a bad driver, but right now theres just so many better drivers.

As for Glock, well he sealed his own fate by signing with Virgin/Marussia, if theres a driver that never got a good chance then thats the guy. I really like Petrov too, I think he's very quick, id put him in the same category as Maldonado, pay driver... but fast as hell!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:02 pm 
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F1 became like a casting show recently.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Completely agree with Brundle here. Kobayashi was exciting at times, but virtually anonymous at other times. Maybe people just expected too much of him and he didn't deliver.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Volantary wrote:
Kobayashi had his chance and was 6 points away from beating his teammate who got a mclaren seat. That's a single 7th placed finish. He at least deserved to be retained by Sauber.

With hindsight, replacing Kovalainen with money actually makes sense. Pic showed he has respectable pace so they shouldn't be worried about him not getting the best from the car, and he brings money. They have more of a chance of moving up the grid with this arrangement than they did using Petrov to pay Kovalainen's wages and having no money left for the car.


Yeah, I don't really agree with Brundle. It's just a merry go round of rookies atm, and that teaches noone anything. Not the drivers, not the teams, not the fans.

Senna has already left F1, after doing a sort of alright job, but he replaced Heidfeld who was doing just fine. Everyone raves about Hulkenberg but is he any better than Barrichello? Probably not.

There seems to be a lack of respect for experience up and down the grid now.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:39 pm 
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I really like Kamui but what Brundle says is true. He had his chance. In fact he had 3 chances.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Volantary wrote:
Kobayashi had his chance and was 6 points away from beating his teammate who got a mclaren seat. That's a single 7th placed finish. He at least deserved to be retained by Sauber.

With hindsight, replacing Kovalainen with money actually makes sense. Pic showed he has respectable pace so they shouldn't be worried about him not getting the best from the car, and he brings money. They have more of a chance of moving up the grid with this arrangement than they did using Petrov to pay Kovalainen's wages and having no money left for the car.


Yeah, I don't really agree with Brundle. It's just a merry go round of rookies atm, and that teaches noone anything. Not the drivers, not the teams, not the fans.

Senna has already left F1, after doing a sort of alright job, but he replaced Heidfeld who was doing just fine. Everyone raves about Hulkenberg but is he any better than Barrichello? Probably not.

There seems to be a lack of respect for experience up and down the grid now.


Compared to the midfielders, most of the recent rookies have not been any worse, and in some cases better. Perez, Hulkenberg, etc have done pretty well.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:48 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Volantary wrote:
Kobayashi had his chance and was 6 points away from beating his teammate who got a mclaren seat. That's a single 7th placed finish. He at least deserved to be retained by Sauber.

With hindsight, replacing Kovalainen with money actually makes sense. Pic showed he has respectable pace so they shouldn't be worried about him not getting the best from the car, and he brings money. They have more of a chance of moving up the grid with this arrangement than they did using Petrov to pay Kovalainen's wages and having no money left for the car.


Yeah, I don't really agree with Brundle. It's just a merry go round of rookies atm, and that teaches noone anything. Not the drivers, not the teams, not the fans.

Senna has already left F1, after doing a sort of alright job, but he replaced Heidfeld who was doing just fine. Everyone raves about Hulkenberg but is he any better than Barrichello? Probably not.

There seems to be a lack of respect for experience up and down the grid now.


Compared to the midfielders, most of the recent rookies have not been any worse, and in some cases better. Perez, Hulkenberg, etc have done pretty well.

This. Anyway the experienced drivers like Barrichello and Schumacher were on clear downward curves from their best in their final seasons. They needed to go at the end of the day.

The cream of the crop always rise to the top in the end, the best drivers prove themselves to have that spark a la Perez, Hulk and Vettel when he was at STR. The mediocre ones get dropped a la Koba, Heidfeld and Kovi.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
This. Anyway the experienced drivers like Barrichello and Schumacher were on clear downward curves from their best in their final seasons. They needed to go at the end of the day.

The cream of the crop always rise to the top in the end, the best drivers prove themselves to have that spark a la Perez, Hulk and Vettel when he was at STR. The mediocre ones get dropped a la Koba, Heidfeld and Kovi.

That is true if you're looking at the top five teams. But below that, money talks much louder than talent. That's why Petrov has a drive but Kovalainen doesn't. Drivers like Kobayashi, Heidfeld and Alguersuari are certainly more talented than the likes of Maldonado for instance. And if HRT were in business, Karthikeyan would be on the grid but those three would probably still not have a drive.

I'm sure the axed drivers weren't exactly WDC material but they were certainly good enough to stay in F1.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:04 pm 
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phyz wrote:

That's why Petrov has a drive but Kovalainen doesn't.


Did I miss something?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:12 pm 
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phyz wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
This. Anyway the experienced drivers like Barrichello and Schumacher were on clear downward curves from their best in their final seasons. They needed to go at the end of the day.

The cream of the crop always rise to the top in the end, the best drivers prove themselves to have that spark a la Perez, Hulk and Vettel when he was at STR. The mediocre ones get dropped a la Koba, Heidfeld and Kovi.

That is true if you're looking at the top five teams. But below that, money talks much louder than talent. That's why Petrov has a drive but Kovalainen doesn't. Drivers like Kobayashi, Heidfeld and Alguersuari are certainly more talented than the likes of Maldonado for instance. And if HRT were in business, Karthikeyan would be on the grid but those three would probably still not have a drive.

I'm sure the axed drivers weren't exactly WDC material but they were certainly good enough to stay in F1.


Petrov doesn't have a drive...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:17 pm 
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Volantary wrote:

Petrov doesn't have a drive...


Lol well sometimes mistakes are made haha.

This is just the state of F1 right now. It's an exploited commercial business. When the business begins to suffer, as witnessed by 2012's drop in ratings, then the sport sort of re-invents itself which will be better for us fans but business and marketing will always take precedent. This is just the flow in the curve of where the sport is today. All sports go through the same thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:22 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
phyz wrote:

That's why Petrov has a drive but Kovalainen doesn't.


Did I miss something?

Exactly.

And Phyz,

Also I don't know that Kobayashi is more talented than Maldonado when the latter isn't being a crash whore. Maldonado was certainly better in GP2 and he is the one with a race win, and remember most consider both the Williams and Sauber cars to have been capable of winning races in 2012...

Would those three want a drive at HRT? Probably not. Alguersuari turned them down already for 2012 saying he only wanted a midfield team, Kobayashi turned his back on F1 when the Force India, Caterham and Marussia seats were still available and he had money by then and Kovi just wasn't good enough for another shot in a better team I'm afraid, Petrov beat him in 2012.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Sevenfest wrote:
phyz wrote:

That's why Petrov has a drive but Kovalainen doesn't.


Did I miss something?

Exactly.

And Phyz,

Also I don't know that Kobayashi is more talented than Maldonado when the latter isn't being a crash whore. Maldonado was certainly better in GP2 and he is the one with a race win, and remember most consider both the Williams and Sauber cars to have been capable of winning races in 2012...

Would those three want a drive at HRT? Probably not. Alguersuari turned them down already for 2012 saying he only wanted a midfield team, Kobayashi turned his back on F1 when the Force India, Caterham and Marussia seats were still available and he had money by then and Kovi just wasn't good enough for another shot in a better team I'm afraid, Petrov beat him in 2012.


Yes I'd say Kobayashi is better than Maldonado. I think Maldonado's raw pace rivals Lewis & Sebastian but throughout a season he's shown that he's a reckless nutter. I think of Grosjean in the same light, just that he never really had a good chance to win a race like Maldonado did. Hungary was probably his best chance but you can't overtake on that track and he ended up ceding to kimi. Who is also pretty quick. On that note I'd say Algy and Petrov are better than him too.

If I were any of them I wouldn't have accepted a drive at HRT. I think Pedro and Narain were a perfect lineup for them; a reliable experienced driver who could get near where the car was capable of and a pay driver who brought them the money to fund Pedro. Much like VDG and Pic at Caterham now. Any of them would have been wasted at HRT.

I will miss all of them tbh. Kobayashi, Petrov, Glock and Algy are all drivers worthy of drives over VDG, Razia, Maldonado (maybe, if he carries on how he has been acting) & any other pay drivers I've forgotten. If I were a midfield team, a lineup made up of any of those 4 would be a satisfactory lineup for me.

Having said that, except for Marussia, I don't really begrudge any drivers of their seat. Gutierrez has shown promise in GP2 (even if he was matched by Calado who I rate highly), Bottas is clearly very quick, VDG brings money to Caterham who need it to make a good car for Pic, Razia did well in GP2 last year and I don't think he will embarrass himself in F1, same for Chilton. To be honest I think Di Resta needs to go to be replaced with Calado.

Basically, there need to be 2 new teams to accomodate Kobayashi, Algy, Glock and Petrov. I miss petrov :(

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:21 pm 
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:uhoh:

Kobayashi underperformed for the majority of 2012. He is no better than Maldonado. If he was he'd have done a whole lot better in GP2 and not been posted missing for most of last year.

Petrov is decidedly average. He can perform well once in a while but like Kobayashi is probably only worth the single podium he earned in F1. We can't compare Alguersauri to any of these guys because we only ever saw him against Buemi who he didn't exactly thrash.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:40 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
:uhoh:

Kobayashi underperformed for the majority of 2012. He is no better than Maldonado. If he was he'd have done a whole lot better in GP2 and not been posted missing for most of last year.

Petrov is decidedly average. He can perform well once in a while but like Kobayashi is probably only worth the single podium he earned in F1. We can't compare Alguersauri to any of these guys because we only ever saw him against Buemi who he didn't exactly thrash.


But he still managed to finsih a whole 6 points behind his team mate. Maldonado didn't finish much more than that above his. On pace, yes Maldonado & Perez probably beat Kobayashi and Senna, but they have to deliver over a season which they both didn't.

Petrov out-performed Kovi who wasn't that far off Lewis on pure pace. I know we can't use that as a direct comparison but we can say Kovi is no slouch and be extension neither is Petrov.

Algy impressed me more than Buemi. I think that's the same for many. No real stats to back that up but Algy was a solid driver and certainly worthy of a place in F1. Hopefully he'll find a route back to F1 through Pirelli. To be honest so does Buemi but I won't miss him.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:42 pm 
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Sorry dude but Kobayashi didn't to the most fundamental thing for a driver in F1, beat his team mate. Regardless of how much he missed doing that by he didn't do it. Maldonado did. One delivered and one didn't and that's part of the reason Kobayashi doesn't get any sympathy from me.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
RickM wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Volantary wrote:
Kobayashi had his chance and was 6 points away from beating his teammate who got a mclaren seat. That's a single 7th placed finish. He at least deserved to be retained by Sauber.

With hindsight, replacing Kovalainen with money actually makes sense. Pic showed he has respectable pace so they shouldn't be worried about him not getting the best from the car, and he brings money. They have more of a chance of moving up the grid with this arrangement than they did using Petrov to pay Kovalainen's wages and having no money left for the car.


Yeah, I don't really agree with Brundle. It's just a merry go round of rookies atm, and that teaches noone anything. Not the drivers, not the teams, not the fans.

Senna has already left F1, after doing a sort of alright job, but he replaced Heidfeld who was doing just fine. Everyone raves about Hulkenberg but is he any better than Barrichello? Probably not.

There seems to be a lack of respect for experience up and down the grid now.


Compared to the midfielders, most of the recent rookies have not been any worse, and in some cases better. Perez, Hulkenberg, etc have done pretty well.

This. Anyway the experienced drivers like Barrichello and Schumacher were on clear downward curves from their best in their final seasons. They needed to go at the end of the day.

The cream of the crop always rise to the top in the end, the best drivers prove themselves to have that spark a la Perez, Hulk and Vettel when he was at STR. The mediocre ones get dropped a la Koba, Heidfeld and Kovi.


Vettel was basically a new Schumacher in terms of calibre so of course he came through. Perez, Hulkenberg, better than Heidfeld, Kovalainen, is all hail the mods debatable to say the least.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Sorry dude but Kobayashi didn't to the most fundamental thing for a driver in F1, beat his team mate. Regardless of how much he missed doing that by he didn't do it. Maldonado did. One delivered and one didn't and that's part of the reason Kobayashi doesn't get any sympathy from me.


Nor did Button for his first... what 3 seasons?

Nevertheless he grew into a very good driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:48 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Sorry dude but Kobayashi didn't to the most fundamental thing for a driver in F1, beat his team mate. Regardless of how much he missed doing that by he didn't do it. Maldonado did. One delivered and one didn't and that's part of the reason Kobayashi doesn't get any sympathy from me.


And just how many points did Perez deliver? His car was reliable. I hope it was a lot.

Sevenfest wrote:
phyz wrote:

That's why Petrov has a drive but Kovalainen doesn't.


Did I miss something?


Yes, formula one drives are afforded to only the best and most deserving drivers who have the most distinguished careers.

:-|


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:59 pm 
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1. Don't swear at me. It's rude.

2. I find it highly likely Perez and Hulkenburg would have the measure of Heidfeld and Kovi over a season.

3. Perez beat his team mate. He did what he needed to do and he had a whole year's less experience to boot.

4. If you don't like the way F1 is with pay drivers helping save the skins of more than one team then don't watch it. The economy is horrid right now so pay drivers won't go away in a hurry.

5. Button was a lucky boy in the early 00's. He was lucky not many rookies where looking to enter the sport in 2002 meaning he kept his Renault seat. He was lucky Briatore thought Alonso needed a year of testing or his F1 career would have been over. At that time no one else wanted him.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:01 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
1. Don't swear at me. It's rude.

2. I find it highly likely Perez and Hulkenburg would have the measure of Heidfeld and Kovi over a season.

3. Perez beat his team mate. He did what he needed to do and he had a whole year's less experience to boot.

4. If you don't like the way F1 is with pay drivers helping save the skins of more than one team then don't watch it. The economy is horrid right now so pay drivers won't go away in a hurry.

5. Button was a lucky boy in the early 00's. He was lucky not many rookies where looking to enter the sport in 2002 meaning he kept his Renault seat. He was lucky Briatore thought Alonso needed a year of testing or his F1 career would have been over. At that time no one else wanted him.


1. Don't be wrong


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:04 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
1. Don't swear at me. It's rude.

2. I find it highly likely Perez and Hulkenburg would have the measure of Heidfeld and Kovi over a season.

3. Perez beat his team mate. He did what he needed to do and he had a whole year's less experience to boot.

4. If you don't like the way F1 is with pay drivers helping save the skins of more than one team then don't watch it. The economy is horrid right now so pay drivers won't go away in a hurry.

5. Button was a lucky boy in the early 00's. He was lucky not many rookies where looking to enter the sport in 2002 meaning he kept his Renault seat. He was lucky Briatore thought Alonso needed a year of testing or his F1 career would have been over. At that time no one else wanted him.


1. Don't be wrong


Quote:
Vettel was basically a new Schumacher in terms of calibre so of course he came through. Perez, Hulkenberg, better than Heidfeld, Kovalainen, is all hail the mods debatable to say the


I'd appreciate if you didn't swear in your replies to me. It is rude and aggressive.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:10 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:24 am 
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I'd have KK down as a better racer than Perez. When that Sauber was fast, he was the one delivering the results. Germany, Spa, Japan, Barcelona, Valencia. He was the one looking capable of top 5 and podium finishes.

Perez is quick and I like him but there was a large element of good fortune in his 3 podiums. 2 were in races where he had an extra set of fresh tyres from not making it into Q3 and Malaysia was a wet dry race where he happened to end up on the right tyres at the right time.

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