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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:38 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Race2win wrote:
@Schumierules & POB: I understand what you trying to say. I dont mean performance wise drivers earlier were better than now or vice versa. POB you mentioned Bravery. Bravery is just a part of it. Motorsport is dangerous. They all drove/drive to the edge of the limet all the time. Only difference is today a driver is 99.9% sure he'll make it out alive, which is a good thing. I wouldnt want my fav drivers to die. But earlier they didnt have that luxury. Everyone counts only the World Championship points. Yet drivers like Tazio Nuvolari won not a single point. Why? Because WC didnt start until the 50s. Infact till the 60s classic sports car races carried more prestige than wins in WC. Also lets be honest the World Championship was way different then. I could on but I fear I would bore a lot of people on here. All I am saying is there is so much more to being considered the Best F1 driver than what a few statistics say. My list of favorite driver mentioned earlier still stays the same.


Your posts are not boring anyone, as you can see from the responses! Very interesting topic and always topical. Even though there may be no definitive answer.

Your stated basis for calculating and rating the drivers is entirely valid as are your tabled results. A lot of time to do this.

What turned me away from results-based analysis was the problem of measuring/comparing drivers due to the disparity in cars. Always the problem in F1. Moss and Surtees probably being the most glaring examples of top-raters in off-pace cars. And Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneueve possibly being the clearest examples of off-pace drivers in top-rate cars.

The more seasons a driver has in top-rate cars the better are his stats. Fangio, Schumacher and Clark (and Damon Hill) had the highest percentage of their races in top-rate cars. The three (Fangio, Clark, Schumacher) also lacked that other factor that significantly affects results: a top-rate team-mate without team orders. Neither Senna nor Prost could dominate when paired; imo if Fangio had Ascari, Clark had Surtees and Schumacher had Hakkinen/Raikkonen/Alonso as team-mates (without team orders), their stats would not be nearly as healthy as they are. Same goes for Ascari in 1952-3 when his stats soared; he was clearly faster than his team-mates in the top car.


I'm slightly controversial in that I believe that Senna was better than Prost. Not based on the "Senna" documentary (haven't seen it I've heard it's biased), but on trawling through old races and their results and footage.

To a lesser extent, but perhaps more controversially, I believe that Schumacher was better (i.e. faster) than Hakkinen and Raikkonen. I say lesser extent because they were never teammates. I also believe he was faster than Alonso.

If you asked me if Schumacher was faster than Hamilton or Vettel I would say I have no idea. Particularly Vettel could even be the best yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Eva09: nothing contraversial about your assessments of drivers. All sound quite reasonable.

There is no doubt that Senna was faster than Prost (or anyone else too) in quali, and slightly in the races, when they clashed 1988 to 1993. Lauda reckons he'd like to have seen Prost against Senna when he partnered Prost in 1984-5!

Imo the advantage Schumacher would have over Hakkinen and Raikkonen would not necessarily be in speed, but in his out-of-car abilities, ie team-working and car development for so many hours longer than other drivers.

Imo Alonso's all-round racer speed is under-rated because he has not had a top-rated car since 2007. This always downgrades perceptions of driver speed. With such close-matched drivers and teams as Alonso/Ferrari, Hamilton/McLaren-Mercedes and Vettel/Red Bull-Renault, and maybe Raikkonen/Lotus_Renault, any driver who is giving away a tenth or two in his car cannot dominate.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:03 pm 
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@Eva: Senna was an expert qualifier but yeah like POB said in race trim he was good but not better than Prost. But if it rained no one could touch him. POB is quite spot on about the rest. With the current drivers Vettel Lewis Kimi and Alonso even I cant say who really is fast. Each shows good pace on random days. Sometimes the car is bad so it difficult to judge.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:31 pm 
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While we're at it, let's try a really controversial opinion.

Rubens Barrichello was a slightly faster driver than Jenson Button, at least in qualifying.

Wet weather ability not a lot in it, Rubens beat Jenson sometimes but perhaps Jenson was slightly better.

2006 Jenson was clearly faster, although Barrichello had to drive Michelin tyres that Button had driven for 4 years before.

2007 and 2008 wasn't a whole lot in it, the car was a dog really and there was nothing in it. In the qualifying sessions both completed it was 17-16 to Barrichello. When both drivers finished it was 10-8 to Barrichello.

2009 Barrichello had a problem with the brakes for the first 7 races that couldn't immediately be fixed. Jenson outqualifies Barrichello 6-1. The brakes on Barrichello's car weren't able to be modified until Silverstone. From then on he outqualified Jenson 9-0 and was consistently faster.

Having written that no it probably isn't that controversial.


Last edited by Eva09 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
@Eva: Senna was an expert qualifier but yeah like POB said in race trim he was good but not better than Prost. But if it rained no one could touch him. POB is quite spot on about the rest. With the current drivers Vettel Lewis Kimi and Alonso even I cant say who really is fast. Each shows good pace on random days. Sometimes the car is bad so it difficult to judge.


I would personally rate Senna and Schumacher above Hakkinen, Prost, Alonso, Raikkonen.

Current drivers who could compare to Senna and Schumacher, I can only say Hamilton and Vettel.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:53 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
My choice. He performed as good or better as other drivers that surely belong to the 'greatest of all times' list: Lauda, Prost, Mansell and K. Rosberg. And in the same car.

He also did other things worthy of a F1 'greatest', such as winning the race despite being lapped (more than once), winning a F1 championship with a car that wasn't even the 2nd best car, coming back after 1 year of retirement and blowing everyone away, breaking the records for most F1 wins, most F1 points and most F1 fastest laps; winning races with 4 different engine brands, 4 different teams, and in different engine/suspension eras.

Plus getting all kinds of praise and respect from fellow F1 drivers and commentators.

ALAIN "The professor"

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
While we're at it, let's try a really controversial opinion.

Rubens Barrichello was a slightly faster driver than Jenson Button, at least in qualifying.

Wet weather ability not a lot in it, Rubens beat Jenson sometimes but perhaps Jenson was slightly better.

2006 Jenson was clearly faster, although Barrichello had to drive Michelin tyres that Button had driven for 4 years before.

2007 and 2008 wasn't a whole lot in it, the car was a dog really and there was nothing in it. In the qualifying sessions both completed it was 17-16 to Barrichello. When both drivers finished it was 10-8 to Barrichello.

2009 Barrichello had a problem with the brakes for the first 7 races that couldn't immediately be fixed. Jenson outqualifies Barrichello 6-1. The brakes on Barrichello's car weren't able to be modified until Silverstone. From then on he outqualified Jenson 9-0 and was consistently faster.

Having written that no it probably isn't that controversial.


What you say here will cause some fans to think it is highly contraversial!

The excellent analysis you've done on Barrichello coincides exactly with my findings on Rubens. He was a vastly under-rated driver. As you mention, if he'd had the brake manufacturer of his choice at Brawn in 2009, the winning scores would have been close to equal between him and Jenson. For half the season as you so accurately highlight, Rubens was hobbled; yet he still equalled JB's pre-race time season average, and was only 0.1% slower in race-time season average. These according to my rating system.

My measurement/comparisons are largely speed based, and in 2003 and 2004 Rubens was so close to Michael's speed, and dare I say it, somewhat faster than Jenson and Coulthard in those seasons. My stats are season averages so consistency automatically comes into it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
2007 and 2008 wasn't a whole lot in it, the car was a dog really and there was nothing in it. In the qualifying sessions both completed it was 17-16 to Barrichello. When both drivers finished it was 10-8 to Barrichello.

2009 Barrichello had a problem with the brakes for the first 7 races that couldn't immediately be fixed. Jenson outqualifies Barrichello 6-1. The brakes on Barrichello's car weren't able to be modified until Silverstone. From then on he outqualified Jenson 9-0 and was consistently faster.

Having written that no it probably isn't that controversial.


I do agree with you. I closely followed them during the 2009 season and it does happened like you say. However, i wouldn't say BAR is better than BUT. Who cares about qualifying? Jenson was more consistent in races. Look at brazil 2009, that made me a Button fan; and i used to be a passionate fan of Rubens !!

As for the Senna vs Prost comparison...You're underrating Prost!! Sooner or later you'll realize that AP is without peer in the list of F1 greats. Of all the greatest 80s drivers, only Senna was able to match a rather aged Prost as a teammate. And apparently he performed better than him in 1989... according to some due to being favored by Honda, and Ron Dennis removing support to Prost once he found out he was leaving for Ferrari. But even if these rumors were false, look at this graph:

Image

Even in 1989 he lead Senna in points through most of the season!!

Prost -unlike the great Ayrton- instead matched or beat all the who-is-who of 80s drivers in the same car, except Nelson Piquet (who respected AP a lot.) Schumacher -one of the top 5 drivers ever, no doubt- never had to face a strong teammate {except an extremely old Piquet who had lost the speed after his 1987 tamburello crash}. In 1990 people thought the great Nigel Mansell was going to soundly beat Alain Prost; the opposite happened. Yes, i bet Ferrari favored AP, but AP got almost double the points of Nigel!

And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...


Last edited by flavio81 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:29 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:21 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
And Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneueve possibly being the clearest examples of off-pace drivers in top-rate cars.


DH an "off-pace" driver? I always thought DH was a perfectly fine driver and a worthy champion.

Some people have said the same about Jacques Villeneueve

Jacques is one of only a handful of drivers I dislike, but he was decent in 1997. Plus he made some silly choices in regards to what team he raced for. After 1997 he was never in a top flight car again.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:41 am 
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flavio81 wrote:

And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...


Comments like that get thrown around a lot. The fact is that if the points system then was the same as it is now, all the drivers would have approached the races differently. The way the system was, Prost won only 4 (for want of a better word than "only") titles and you can't improve his standing by saying 'if the sytem was different..'.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:16 am 
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flavio81 wrote:
And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...

He surely deserved it. I am just sorry that modern generation of F1 fans haven't seenAlain Prost in action. He was dominating F1 for 10 years. Seven titles is what he really deserved - not to undermine Lauda, Rosberg, Senna and alike, but he wasn't named "Professor" for nothing. No other driver ever had such a rank.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...

He surely deserved it. I am just sorry that modern generation of F1 fans haven't seenAlain Prost in action. He was dominating F1 for 10 years. Seven titles is what he really deserved - not to undermine Lauda, Rosberg, Senna and alike, but he wasn't named "Professor" for nothing. No other driver ever had such a rank.

If the modern geeration was really that interested i am sure they would have come up with ways to see for themselves how arlier drivers raced and how good they were. But then again some of them need to take off their Rose Tinted glasses and open their minds. (Yes i am looking at lewis fans). He is very good but still a long way from being great.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:45 am 
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flavio81 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
2007 and 2008 wasn't a whole lot in it, the car was a dog really and there was nothing in it. In the qualifying sessions both completed it was 17-16 to Barrichello. When both drivers finished it was 10-8 to Barrichello.

2009 Barrichello had a problem with the brakes for the first 7 races that couldn't immediately be fixed. Jenson outqualifies Barrichello 6-1. The brakes on Barrichello's car weren't able to be modified until Silverstone. From then on he outqualified Jenson 9-0 and was consistently faster.

Having written that no it probably isn't that controversial.


I do agree with you. I closely followed them during the 2009 season and it does happened like you say. However, i wouldn't say BAR is better than BUT. Who cares about qualifying? Jenson was more consistent in races. Look at brazil 2009, that made me a Button fan; and i used to be a passionate fan of Rubens !!

As for the Senna vs Prost comparison...You're underrating Prost!! Sooner or later you'll realize that AP is without peer in the list of F1 greats. Of all the greatest 80s drivers, only Senna was able to match a rather aged Prost as a teammate. And apparently he performed better than him in 1989... according to some due to being favored by Honda, and Ron Dennis removing support to Prost once he found out he was leaving for Ferrari. But even if these rumors were false, look at this graph:

Image

Even in 1989 he lead Senna in points through most of the season!!

Prost -unlike the great Ayrton- instead matched or beat all the who-is-who of 80s drivers in the same car, except Nelson Piquet (who respected AP a lot.) Schumacher -one of the top 5 drivers ever, no doubt- never had to face a strong teammate {except an extremely old Piquet who had lost the speed after his 1987 tamburello crash}. In 1990 people thought the great Nigel Mansell was going to soundly beat Alain Prost; the opposite happened. Yes, i bet Ferrari favored AP, but AP got almost double the points of Nigel!

And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...


True, but Senna had a high number of mechanical failures during the season, while Prost didn't. So this conclusion is again based on the numbers, but is more difficult to make when looking at the facts... And if you say that Prost matched or beat all the great drivers of the 80's, and Senna matched / beat Prost during 88 and 89 and 90, then I could also state that Prost and Senna were the fastest / best drivers of the whole lot.

I don't even think when Senna was teamed up with Prost, Prost was already over his peak or "aged". When he teamed up with Senna he was at his 8th year in F1, and as we saw with Senna later on in 1993, you could very well be at your peak entering your 9th year in F1 and perhaps even more.

Personally I do believe Prost was over his peak in 1993, but his skills combined with an extremely dominant Williams car made him get his 4th title, although, compared to what Hill and Senna did, not with a great feeling of dominance.

But that doesn't take away Prost will always be named as an F1 all-time great, which he definitely is.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:51 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am 
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Although I really cannot say who is 'best of all', and know drivers cannot be compared unless they were team-mates: if I had to pick one driver it would be Prost. He had all the talents necessary and seemed to have no weaknesses. When paired with Senna AP acknowledged Ayrton's superior speed and said exactly what Lauda said in 1984: 'When you've been racing for years you can no longer go all-out as you did when you were young'.

Drivers can only be 'sort of 'compared/discussed when at their peaks. Imo Prost was cruising in 1993 and took no chances, but I reckon he could have scored about three more wins if he'd needed to for the WDC. At Spa he let Damon go after their pitstops.... and was very supportive.

To me in 1990 Prost showed what he could do when he gave Senna such a tough challenge; imo one of the greatest season-fights in history. At least as good as Nuvolari and Moss in off-pace cars.

Talking of off-pace: my commnets about Damon Hill are not meant to be derogatory. We are discussing and comparing drivers and their performances at the very top. Damon and Jacques were never as fast as Schumacher; just as Emerson Fittipaldi was off-pace compared to Peterson, Stewart, Cevert, Graham Hill and Brabham were off-pace compared with Moss, Clark and Surtees. And today Webber and Button are not as fast as Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.

If one brings in personal background: for me Damon has the be one of the most respected drivers: he started late in life, did not have any financial backing, which was why he raced more affordable motor cycles; he also did not have the karting background which Michael picked up on and crowded Damon in traffic to good effect. Damon also had to cope with leading the Willams team after Senna's death, as well as the well-funded and fast new team-mate Coulthard; then the competitive Jacques V, all the time having the Williams team's background-chirping about his speed while fighting Michael/Brawn/Byrne and the ultra-competitive Benetton team. I also happen to know that someone high up in F1 tried to keep Damon out of F1 due to a years earlier issue with Graham Hill; so unjust. Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:33 am 
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XploZiV wrote:
True, but Senna had a high number of mechanical failures during the season, while Prost didn't.

Do you not ever think there was a reason why this was so?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:49 am 
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mcdo wrote:
XploZiV wrote:
True, but Senna had a high number of mechanical failures during the season, while Prost didn't.

Do you not ever think there was a reason why this was so?


Every failure has a reason, but was it because Senna drove his car into a failure or not? We don't know...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...

He surely deserved it. I am just sorry that modern generation of F1 fans haven't seenAlain Prost in action. He was dominating F1 for 10 years. Seven titles is what he really deserved - not to undermine Lauda, Rosberg, Senna and alike, but he wasn't named "Professor" for nothing. No other driver ever had such a rank.

If the modern geeration was really that interested i am sure they would have come up with ways to see for themselves how arlier drivers raced and how good they were. But then again some of them need to take off their Rose Tinted glasses and open their minds. (Yes i am looking at lewis fans). He is very good but still a long way from being great.


Not sure why you felt it was necessary to just label Lewis fans with having this mind set considering other fans of other drivers hold the opinion of their respective drivers being the best ;)

Plus, you could of at least said, 'Some' lewis fans and not all. I don't think Lewis is the best driver ever or in fact worthy of the top 10 yet. In fact I'd rank LH anywhere from 15th to 20th.

Alain Prost is the best driver ever for me, especially considering the team mates he was beaten.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:41 pm 
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@Moore: You should check out the Lewis on top gear thread then you'll get to know what Im talking about. Oh and BTW I too am a fan of Lewis.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
@Moore: You should check out the Lewis on top gear thread then you'll get to know what Im talking about. Oh and BTW I too am a fan of Lewis.


Don't worry I've seen, but that isn't every lewis fan, it's a few select individuals who worship too much of Lewis Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Moore wrote:
Race2win wrote:
@Moore: You should check out the Lewis on top gear thread then you'll get to know what Im talking about. Oh and BTW I too am a fan of Lewis.

Don't worry I've seen, but that isn't every lewis fan, it's a few select individuals who worship too much of Lewis Hamilton.

Also I mentioned "Rose tinted glasses". I thought that was a dead give away of who I was talking about... But anyways

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Moore wrote:
Plus, you could of at least said, 'Some' lewis fans and not all. I don't think Lewis is the best driver ever or in fact worthy of the top 10 yet. In fact I'd rank LH anywhere from 15th to 20th.


Me too. And this is nothing against LH... I love watching Lewis race and will pitch for him at any race, but i can mention 14 drivers more important (or with higher achievements) in F1 than Lewis. In no order, with reason for being there:

1. Schumacher -- record smasher, maybe best driver ever
2. Prost
3. Senna -- idol of practically every modern F1 driver, maybe best driver ever
4. Piquet -- 3x WDC in different conditions and against extremely tough competition
5. Mansell -- lots of races won against perhaps the most brilliant F1 grid
6. Jackie Stewart -- record smasher
7. Jim Clark -- record smasher
8. Niki Lauda -- almost 4x WDC, maybe best driver ever
9. JM Fangio -- record smasher, maybe best driver ever
10. Tazio -- legend
11. Alberto Ascari -- legend
12. Graham Hill -- 3x WDC
13. Jack Brabham -- 3xWDC, one of them with HIS OWN CAR
14. Emerson Fittipaldi -- 2xWDC who only stopped winning because he decided to form his own team.

there, fourteen. and i could go on

15. Mario Andretti -- won almost any kind of motorsport competition
16. Mika Hakkinen -- stopped Schumacher in his prime
17. Carlos Reutemann
18. Gilles Villeneuve

I'm sure Lewis would agree with me in this one.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:30 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:

If one brings in personal background: for me Damon has the be one of the most respected drivers: he started late in life, did not have any financial backing, which was why he raced more affordable motor cycles; he also did not have the karting background which Michael picked up on and crowded Damon in traffic to good effect. Damon also had to cope with leading the Willams team after Senna's death, as well as the well-funded and fast new team-mate Coulthard; then the competitive Jacques V, all the time having the Williams team's background-chirping about his speed while fighting Michael/Brawn/Byrne and the ultra-competitive Benetton team. I also happen to know that someone high up in F1 tried to keep Damon out of F1 due to a years earlier issue with Graham Hill; so unjust. Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:17 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
Moore wrote:
Plus, you could of at least said, 'Some' lewis fans and not all. I don't think Lewis is the best driver ever or in fact worthy of the top 10 yet. In fact I'd rank LH anywhere from 15th to 20th.


Me too. And this is nothing against LH... I love watching Lewis race and will pitch for him at any race, but i can mention 14 drivers more important (or with higher achievements) in F1 than Lewis. In no order, with reason for being there:

1. Schumacher -- record smasher, maybe best driver ever
2. Prost
3. Senna -- idol of practically every modern F1 driver, maybe best driver ever
4. Piquet -- 3x WDC in different conditions and against extremely tough competition
5. Mansell -- lots of races won against perhaps the most brilliant F1 grid
6. Jackie Stewart -- record smasher
7. Jim Clark -- record smasher
8. Niki Lauda -- almost 4x WDC, maybe best driver ever
9. JM Fangio -- record smasher, maybe best driver ever
10. Tazio -- legend
11. Alberto Ascari -- legend
12. Graham Hill -- 3x WDC
13. Jack Brabham -- 3xWDC, one of them with HIS OWN CAR
14. Emerson Fittipaldi -- 2xWDC who only stopped winning because he decided to form his own team.

there, fourteen. and i could go on

15. Mario Andretti -- won almost any kind of motorsport competition
16. Mika Hakkinen -- stopped Schumacher in his prime
17. Carlos Reutemann
18. Gilles Villeneuve

I'm sure Lewis would agree with me in this one.


Agreed with all except Reutemann. I also think Fittipaldi, Villenueve and maybe Graham Hill are debatable but I would probably put him behind at least two of them. I would also put Moss ahead of Hamilton. So yes overall i would agree 15-20 is about right.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:17 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:

If one brings in personal background: for me Damon has the be one of the most respected drivers: he started late in life, did not have any financial backing, which was why he raced more affordable motor cycles; he also did not have the karting background which Michael picked up on and crowded Damon in traffic to good effect. Damon also had to cope with leading the Willams team after Senna's death, as well as the well-funded and fast new team-mate Coulthard; then the competitive Jacques V, all the time having the Williams team's background-chirping about his speed while fighting Michael/Brawn/Byrne and the ultra-competitive Benetton team. I also happen to know that someone high up in F1 tried to keep Damon out of F1 due to a years earlier issue with Graham Hill; so unjust. Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


Why?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


Why?
I believe my present position would be described as loitering with intent... :D But I will acknowledge that there were moments when Hill gave Schumacher a dose of his own medicine. Not that the old cheater took the hint of course.

And my apologies to Patrick for cutting down his explanation in the quote, but I stand by my long-held conviction that Damon Hill won 2 world titles, and that it is only FIA-short-sightedness and stupidity that keeps one of his trophies in the wrong cupboard.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:35 pm 
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No probelm Fiki, I enjoy your posts and views.

And Flavio's latest list of greats is good; imo Hamilton does not lack anything in the cockpit; he is a great driver, one of the fastest and most talented. I wanted him to win the title in 2012 based on his speed; he could have had eight wins, but for those four slow pit stops, a grid penalty or two and a mech failure ...

Perhaps Lewis is a bit too emotional/impulsive? Like that fast driver from Colombia?

This thread and posts are very interesting. Let's keep it going.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Schumirules: in terms of topping the driver speed ratings on my system, car-neutral, Michael reigned for 11 seasons 1995-2005; this is a record not only for F1 but for all grand prix history.

Uniquely though for ten seasons between Senna's death in 1994 and 2005, there was no driver as fast. Closest was Hakkinen who was at best 0.1 slower. But in 2005 newboys Raikkonen and Alonso arrived and were equal in speed to Michael by my rating system.

Next longest reign was Senna's 9 seasons 1986-1994.

Then a tie at 8 seasons, between Prost (1983-1990) and Alonso (2005-2012).

Ranked fourth with 6 seasons at the top: Moss (1956-1961), Clark (1963-1968) and Stewart (1968-1973).

This ranking/rating of mine does not mean these drivers are equal or can be directly compared. I am just tabling the longevity of their reigns, as measured/scored by my system, which is based primarily on relative speeds.

So many other factors affect driver performance, including team/car, designers and other staff (moving-joining teams), rivals and the level of competition.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
flavio81 wrote:

And finally, if the current points system had been in place during the 80s, AP would have been seven times world champion...


Comments like that get thrown around a lot. The fact is that if the points system then was the same as it is now, all the drivers would have approached the races differently. The way the system was, Prost won only 4 (for want of a better word than "only") titles and you can't improve his standing by saying 'if the sytem was different..'.


This stuff is the absolute bane of the forum, nicely debunked :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:

If one brings in personal background: for me Damon has the be one of the most respected drivers: he started late in life, did not have any financial backing, which was why he raced more affordable motor cycles; he also did not have the karting background which Michael picked up on and crowded Damon in traffic to good effect. Damon also had to cope with leading the Willams team after Senna's death, as well as the well-funded and fast new team-mate Coulthard; then the competitive Jacques V, all the time having the Williams team's background-chirping about his speed while fighting Michael/Brawn/Byrne and the ultra-competitive Benetton team. I also happen to know that someone high up in F1 tried to keep Damon out of F1 due to a years earlier issue with Graham Hill; so unjust. Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


Why?


Doesn't really matter does it?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:

If one brings in personal background: for me Damon has the be one of the most respected drivers: he started late in life, did not have any financial backing, which was why he raced more affordable motor cycles; he also did not have the karting background which Michael picked up on and crowded Damon in traffic to good effect. Damon also had to cope with leading the Willams team after Senna's death, as well as the well-funded and fast new team-mate Coulthard; then the competitive Jacques V, all the time having the Williams team's background-chirping about his speed while fighting Michael/Brawn/Byrne and the ultra-competitive Benetton team. I also happen to know that someone high up in F1 tried to keep Damon out of F1 due to a years earlier issue with Graham Hill; so unjust. Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


Why?


Doesn't really matter does it?


No it doesn't but discussion is the whole point of the forum and you should not expect to be able to make a claim you are unwilling to substantiate without question.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


Why?
I believe my present position would be described as loitering with intent... :D But I will acknowledge that there were moments when Hill gave Schumacher a dose of his own medicine. Not that the old cheater took the hint of course.

And my apologies to Patrick for cutting down his explanation in the quote, but I stand by my long-held conviction that Damon Hill won 2 world titles, and that it is only FIA-short-sightedness and stupidity that keeps one of his trophies in the wrong cupboard.


I don't covet Michael's 7 world titles as much as his 91 race wins. That is my favourite record. If he had 6 titles he would still have the most. The chief difference would be it would make Vettel's task easier!

Nevertheless what you say is utter bollocks. Hill went into the last race 1 point behind, didn't finish, therefore Michael has 7 world titles.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Fiki is talking about the way Schumi won in 1994, rather than the points system. He must blame Schumi for Hill's retirement, which is far from "utter bollocks" as a lot of fans also believe that.

Just like some think Senna and Prost should have been stripped of their titles in 89 and 90 for similar incidents.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
POBRatings wrote:

If one brings in personal background: for me Damon has the be one of the most respected drivers: he started late in life, did not have any financial backing, which was why he raced more affordable motor cycles; he also did not have the karting background which Michael picked up on and crowded Damon in traffic to good effect. Damon also had to cope with leading the Willams team after Senna's death, as well as the well-funded and fast new team-mate Coulthard; then the competitive Jacques V, all the time having the Williams team's background-chirping about his speed while fighting Michael/Brawn/Byrne and the ultra-competitive Benetton team. I also happen to know that someone high up in F1 tried to keep Damon out of F1 due to a years earlier issue with Graham Hill; so unjust. Damon's Title must be probably the hardest won of all. He had the strength of character, and racing ability, to overcome all this. He was always so ethical and fair in his driving; I always wanted him to beat MSC purely as a person.


Hill was as down and dirty as Schumacher IMO!


Why?


Doesn't really matter does it?


No it doesn't but discussion is the whole point of the forum and you should not expect to be able to make a claim you are unwilling to substantiate without question.


Oh I interpreted youre answer wrong, sorry I thought you meant why was he down and dirty.

Substantiate? I've seen him make several aggressive moves right out of the Michael playbook.

Weaving that time in Canada, blocking aggressively in a few occasions (one was in Aida), blocking Michael in Spa 98 before he got past, he also punted Michael off that time in Silverstone.

You'd get penalised for it these days probably, this was in the mid-late 90s a hangover of the Senna days.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:35 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Fiki is talking about the way Schumi won in 1994, rather than the points system. He must blame Schumi for Hill's retirement, which is far from "utter bollocks" as a lot of fans also believe that.

Just like some think Senna and Prost should have been stripped of their titles in 89 and 90 for similar incidents.


The world title is the points system. Otherwise what's the point of having points? You might as well have 19 different races each year having standalone status.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Because unsportsman like conduct should be punished because its cheating.

If Schumi would have been punished for his last race incident in 1994 by just a small points deduction he would have lost the title. Many thought he should have gotten worse than that.

Whether I agree with Fiki or not, his point us far from "utter bollocks" like you said in my view.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:39 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Because unsportsman like conduct should be punished because its cheating.

If Schumi would have been punished for his last race incident in 1994 by just a small points deduction he would have lost the title. Many thought he should have gotten worse than that.

Whether I agree with Fiki or not, his point us far from "utter bollocks" like you said in my view.


Oh wait, I lost it. Sorry what was his point again?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Because unsportsman like conduct should be punished because its cheating.

If Schumi would have been punished for his last race incident in 1994 by just a small points deduction he would have lost the title. Many thought he should have gotten worse than that.

Whether I agree with Fiki or not, his point us far from "utter bollocks" like you said in my view.


Sorry what was his point again?

He thinks Schumi should have not won the title in 1994 based on his last race incident with Hill. He must blame Schumacher for it and felt he caused the crash on purpose in a unsportsman like way and therefore cheated.

Please correct me if I am wrong Fiki.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:54 pm 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Because unsportsman like conduct should be punished because its cheating.

If Schumi would have been punished for his last race incident in 1994 by just a small points deduction he would have lost the title. Many thought he should have gotten worse than that.

Whether I agree with Fiki or not, his point us far from "utter bollocks" like you said in my view.


Sorry what was his point again?

He thinks Schumi should have not won the title in 1994 based on his last race incident with Hill. He must blame Schumacher for it and felt he caused the crash on purpose in unsportsman like man and therefore cheated.

Please correct me if I am wrong Fiki.


Driver A takes trajectory through corner that several other drivers have taken on several laps in the race. Driver B is never ahead of Driver A. Driver A's right rear wheel hits Driver B's front left wheel from behind, damaging the suspension of Driver B slightly (and fatally).

If that is enough to warrant disqualification then you should probably exclude Takuma Sato from the 2003 Japanese Grand Prix for driving right across the apex of the corner and hitting another car.

Even if you are in a more deplorable move at Jerez 97 I still wouldn't handle it that way. Let's say Villeneuve is out of the race. Schumacher wins the title, but ban him for 3 races of the next season. That's how I would handle it. That makes Hill 1995 champion but they didn't do that.


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