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Which of these drivers do you think is the best?
Button 25%  25%  [ 38 ]
Raikkonen (2012 spec) 70%  70%  [ 108 ]
Webber 6%  6%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 155
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:10 pm 
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This was a valid poll by the OP; he explained the intention. Simple.
I was also surprised at the difference between Button and Webber.
All these discussions contribute to more knowledge of F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:14 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
I was also surprised at the difference between Button and Webber. .

Probably because Button has a WDC. In reality, I think they're even stevens...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:57 pm 
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On the Rank the Drivers survey done at the end of last year the public opinion clearly had Raikkonen (albeit in 4th place) in the top group, with a bigger gap to 5th place Button than between any other two drivers in the survey:

http://randomperspective.com/DOLOMITE/

Button was well ahead of Webber as well; so far, in fact, Hulkenberg slipped inbetween them.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Amon wrote:
So Lewis a one time champ is tier 1 and Kimi and Button are tier 2? That doesn't make sense to me to be honest.
Lewis is better than Jense I think but is he really better than Kimi I am not so sure about that.

I think all WDC's should be tier 1.
In tier 2 I would put the guys winning races but probably not good enough to win WDC: Webber, Massa and Rosberg. I expect Perez and Hulkenberg to take Webber and Massa's spot in there at some point and possibly move up to tier 1.

I really don't see much point in this poll.

I don't see a problem in putting champions in different tiers. In the late 90s would you have put Jacques Villeneuve and Damon Hill in the same bracket as Michael Schumacher? Did Nelson Piquet belong in the same tier as Senna and Prost? While it certainly does take a talented driver to win the title no matter how good the car is, some champions are clearly much better than others.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:37 am 
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I'd love to know anyone's reasons for not thinking Kimi is a top-tier driver.

Button is far too dependant on car setup. He's a good driver but not up with the other 4.

And, no, winning a WDC does not automatically make you a top-tier driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:44 am 
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Difficult to argue against Kimi here. Button is very inconsistent, Webber seems to taper off toward the end. Kimi 2012 was very very consistent. That alone should put him at the top. But if we talk who's the best on their best day and not the entire season, I'd say Button can match Kimi if he has a car to his liking. Webber, I am not too sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Kimi. And I say that as a big Jenson fan.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Rosberg

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Voted Button, and that's my opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Don't see how anyone can put a credible argument across for Webber or Button over Kimi, in all honesty

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Raikonnen, he is almost top tier. So should be clear winner here.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:50 pm 
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I see this poll mostly as an attempt to stir the pot than anything else.
Mind if I cut in too? Ok, so if you're talking about 2012 spec Raikkonen, the one who beat everyone else except Vettel and Alonso, and classify him as tier 2, then which tier do the drivers behind him belong to?

See how you can spin that spoon in the other way too? ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:26 am 
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froze wrote:
I see this poll mostly as an attempt to stir the pot than anything else.
Mind if I cut in too? Ok, so if you're talking about 2012 spec Raikkonen, the one who beat everyone else except Vettel and Alonso, and classify him as tier 2, then which tier do the drivers behind him belong to?

See how you can spin that spoon in the other way too? ;)


Well yeah, the poll is a classic loaded question definitely meant to stir the pot. To vote who you think best of the three, you have to acknowledge that all three are 2nd tier.

It is like:

Which of the following type of apples taste the best?

Green Apples
Tangerines
Bananas

Doesn't make it better to say; "Yeah I know you might not all agree they are all apples, but that is the poll, so just vote." Even if everyone participating disagrees they are apples, if most feel bananas are the best tasting and vote for them, you can conclude at the end that Bananas are most people's favorite type of apple.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:01 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
froze wrote:
I see this poll mostly as an attempt to stir the pot than anything else.
Mind if I cut in too? Ok, so if you're talking about 2012 spec Raikkonen, the one who beat everyone else except Vettel and Alonso, and classify him as tier 2, then which tier do the drivers behind him belong to?

See how you can spin that spoon in the other way too? ;)


Well yeah, the poll is a classic loaded question definitely meant to stir the pot. To vote who you think best of the three, you have to acknowledge that all three are 2nd tier.

It is like:

Which of the following type of apples taste the best?

Green Apples
Tangerines
Bananas

Doesn't make it better to say; "Yeah I know you might not all agree they are all apples, but that is the poll, so just vote." Even if everyone participating disagrees they are apples, if most feel bananas are the best tasting and vote for them, you can conclude at the end that Bananas are most people's favorite type of apple.

I agree that it was a loaded question as Kimi has a huge fan base who believe he is a top tier driver. Button too will have a few fans who think the same.

Which is why I decided to treat it as a 'Out of these three drivers, who was the best in 2012?' poll.

On that basis, I thought Kimi was the better driver in 2012.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:31 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Well yeah, the poll is a classic loaded question definitely meant to stir the pot. To vote who you think best of the three, you have to acknowledge that all three are 2nd tier.

...

Doesn't make it better to say; "Yeah I know you might not all agree they are all apples, but that is the poll, so just vote."


I don't agree. I don't think the OP had a hidden agenda here and believe he just wanted to see how the forum thinks about the relative qualities of said drivers. Obviously if someone thinks Raikkonen is tier-two, he is entitled to his opinion. And maybe, if the OP believes that to be the case, he might adjust his opinion or at least look at the poll results spread and conclude his opinion might not be shared by a lot of people.

This is a valid poll, from the point of view of the OP. But then again aren't a lot of threads started from the view of the OP, trying to get other peoples opinion who might or might not agree?

Even though I clearly rate Raikkonen to be in the current drivers top 4 (albeit with a little space between the other 3 and him, based on 2012), I see no harm in the poll.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:38 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
froze wrote:
I see this poll mostly as an attempt to stir the pot than anything else.
Mind if I cut in too? Ok, so if you're talking about 2012 spec Raikkonen, the one who beat everyone else except Vettel and Alonso, and classify him as tier 2, then which tier do the drivers behind him belong to?

See how you can spin that spoon in the other way too? ;)


Well yeah, the poll is a classic loaded question definitely meant to stir the pot. To vote who you think best of the three, you have to acknowledge that all three are 2nd tier.

It is like:

Which of the following type of apples taste the best?

Green Apples
Tangerines
Bananas

Doesn't make it better to say; "Yeah I know you might not all agree they are all apples, but that is the poll, so just vote." Even if everyone participating disagrees they are apples, if most feel bananas are the best tasting and vote for them, you can conclude at the end that Bananas are most people's favorite type of apple.


I understand your point but the OP said about tier 2. The gap between Raikkonen and the rest tier 2 drivers not only on this poll but also on last year's results (3rd - 5th - 6th) and number of podiums (7-6-4) shows you that he is definitely at the top of tier 2 and makes you consider him even tier 1 driver.

If you compare him to Hamilton for example the years that both raced were 1st-2nd, 3rd-1st, 6th-5th, 3rd-4th. Apart from 2008 they were pretty close to each other almost identical amount of points. The only difference in my opinion between the 2 is the fact that Lewis has more poles and wins while Kimi makes the gap with his consistency and the bigger amount of podiums.

So the question that i have to ask is: Since in the end they provide the same results are they both tier 2 drivers or are both tier 1 drivers?

For me both are tier 1 drivers and i think this is what should be cleared because Raikkonen is not only considered top tier driver by the fans but also from the people inside F1 like Domenicalli and Whitmarsh and their opinion is more important than mine and the rest of us


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:01 pm 
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I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:07 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 pm 
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mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.


Hamilton was certainly near Hamilton :nod: but nowhere near Vettel and Alonso, but perhaps in 2013?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:23 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.


Hamilton was certainly near Hamilton :nod: but nowhere near Vettel and Alonso, but perhaps in 2013?


Hamilton was pretty much faultless all season long, his Mclaren broke down and his team made errors. He was most certainly at Vettels and Alonso's level.

If you're saying he was "nowhere near", you have only been looking at the races very superficially.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.


Hamilton was certainly near Hamilton :nod: but nowhere near Vettel and Alonso, but perhaps in 2013?


Hamilton was pretty much faultless all season long, his Mclaren broke down and his team made errors. He was most certainly at Vettels and Alonso's level.

If you're saying he was "nowhere near", you have only been looking at the races very superficially.


"Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Hamilton.
With the utmost respect for Hamilton, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Hamilton (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Raikkonen at his peak was a tier one driver, no doubt about it. However after two years out of the sport, and two pretty underwhelming years in it prior to that, it is hard to put him in the top tier right now. He did drive well last year but for me (and clearly for others too) it wasn't enough for me to consider him among the best. The top drivers have built up their reputations over several years, and by having a disappointing two years at Ferrari and then taking two years out Raikkonen has almost had to rebuilt his reputation from scratch to prove he's as good as he used to be. And that takes longer than one year in my book.

Put it this way, if you look at what Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Raikkonen have done over the past 5 years, one of the four stands out as being in a different tier to the other 3.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:53 pm 
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mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.

Ah well they should've given the third place in the WDC - trophy to McLaren then, silly FIA.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:59 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.

Ah well they should've given the third place in the WDC - trophy to McLaren then, silly FIA.

So the only way Hamilton can be beaten is by himself or by his own team? It's almost like one of them Chuck Norris facts.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:14 pm 
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You can't beat Hamilton, Hamilton beats himself


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:06 am 
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IMO Raikkonen is better than Button, who is clearly better than Webber. I don't rank Webber as a third tier driver, IMO he's the best non-WDC in the field, but he's definitely not on Kimi or Jenson's level, and I genuinely believe he'd have won a WDC if he was. He's in tier 2.5 I guess.

Too many people judge Jenson on last year. I see everywhere people saying that he goes missing for long periods - Sure he did in 2012, but when else has he done that? Jenson has his weaknesses but that isn't one.

It's interesting of the OP to assume they are all 'Tier 2' drivers. I basically agree, because I see one or two weaknesses in Kimi or Jenson that I do not see in Vettel/Alonso/Hamilton, but I'm sure someone could make a convincing argument for ranking all WDCs on a similar level.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:01 am 
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Covalent wrote:
mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.

Ah well they should've given the third place in the WDC - trophy to McLaren then, silly FIA.


Did you actually read what was being said?
We're talking about driver performances and ranking them in tiers. AnRs ranked Hamilton in tier 2 despite him being generally very fast and error-free. As a Vettel-fan I'd even say Hamilton made less mistakes than Vettel.

So putting Hamilton in tier 2 doesn't make sense to me, at all.
We're not talking about driver-team performances. And I'm not saying Kimi doesn't deserve his third place in the WDC. But rating the drivers based on 2012 performances, Hamilton has been up there with Alonso and Vettel.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:19 am 
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mds wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.

Ah well they should've given the third place in the WDC - trophy to McLaren then, silly FIA.


Did you actually read what was being said?
We're talking about driver performances and ranking them in tiers. AnRs ranked Hamilton in tier 2 despite him being generally very fast and error-free. As a Vettel-fan I'd even say Hamilton made less mistakes than Vettel.

So putting Hamilton in tier 2 doesn't make sense to me, at all.
We're not talking about driver-team performances. And I'm not saying Kimi doesn't deserve his third place in the WDC. But rating the drivers based on 2012 performances, Hamilton has been up there with Alonso and Vettel.

Did you or did you not write that it wasn't Kimi that beat Hamilton, but McLaren? That's what I referred to. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:17 am 
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Even a Vettel fan gets stick for defending Hamilton now? Seriously?

Maybe saying that 'McLaren beat Hamilton' is an odd way of describing Hamilton's performance in 2012, but I'm sure we can all agree that Lewis was let down by car and team on many, many occasions, having put himself in good positions. So it's a fair comment really.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:27 am 
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benmc wrote:
Even a Vettel fan gets stick for defending Hamilton now? Seriously?

Maybe saying that 'McLaren beat Hamilton' is an odd way of describing Hamilton's performance in 2012, but I'm sure we can all agree that Lewis was let down by car and team on many, many occasions, having put himself in good positions. So it's a fair comment really.

No I'm not being entirely serious, I just find these "X didn't beat Y, Y beat himself" type of comments amusing. By the same logic, everyone did not beat the HRT boys last year, HRT beat them.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
mds wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mds wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I would put Vettel and Alonso in tier 1,
Kimi, Button and Lewis in tier 2,
Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher in tier 3

Vettel and Alonso was way ahead of everyone else in 2012.

And the king of tier 2 is for me Kimi, to do such a comeback after 2 years of rallying and beating both McLarens, one red Bull is amazing.


Hamilton was at the level of Hamilton and Vettel.
With the utmost respect for Kimi, it wasn't him that beat Hamilton. Mclaren (both the team and the car) beat Hamilton.

Ah well they should've given the third place in the WDC - trophy to McLaren then, silly FIA.


Did you actually read what was being said?
We're talking about driver performances and ranking them in tiers. AnRs ranked Hamilton in tier 2 despite him being generally very fast and error-free. As a Vettel-fan I'd even say Hamilton made less mistakes than Vettel.

So putting Hamilton in tier 2 doesn't make sense to me, at all.
We're not talking about driver-team performances. And I'm not saying Kimi doesn't deserve his third place in the WDC. But rating the drivers based on 2012 performances, Hamilton has been up there with Alonso and Vettel.

Did you or did you not write that it wasn't Kimi that beat Hamilton, but McLaren? That's what I referred to. ;)


My apologies, I completely misread.

Quote:
By the same logic, everyone did not beat the HRT boys last year, HRT beat them.


There are differences. I wouldn't say Narain or PdlR are quite at the level of the tier-1 and tier-2 guys.

Ah heck, you all know what I wanted to say :)


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