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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:41 am 
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http://www.pitpass.com/48402-Ecclestone-None-of-the-teams-want-the-V6-engines-to-happen
This is not exactly surprising, and I do hope Bernie stops this change. But given the time and the money invested, I wonder what will the teams like Mercedes and Renault have to say. Thoughts

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:07 am 
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Change is happening. They are past the point of no return. With less than a year to go for next year testing to begin, they now have no choice but to stick to the plan of having new turbo engines. Lot of teams would be well in their development cycle for next years car, and it is all based on the assumption of new engines and packages.
And I would rather have new V6 turbos at this point with Freeze on current V8 engine development.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:07 am 
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Too late to change anything now.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:41 am 
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The only option they could take, is to allow V8 engines back, along with V6 turbos. And have them equalised.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:12 am 
Can we have the V10s back please? Thank you.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:13 am 
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Why is all this being done in the middle of cost cutting being top of the agenda for years?

Are these engines going to save more energy than it cost to develop them?

greenwizard13 wrote:
Can we have the V10s back please? Thank you.


V-10 made so much sense, more impressive than a road car but without getting ridiculous, and sounded great.


Last edited by flyer on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:17 am 
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Thing is, is it really the teams that don't want it or is it just Bernie pushing his own agenda...

I remember reading some interesting quotes in the following article (expansion of some included in pitpass article) - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21469518

Quote:
"F1 is pretty good at being self-destructive," Whitmarsh says. "Every other weekend we say, 'Shall we really go with the V6? Shall we stick with the V8s? Do we really want turbo-charging or shall we stick with the normally aspirated?'
"If I was facing the board of Hyundai or Toyota and saying, 'Come to F1 (as an engine supplier)', they'd say, 'What are the rules?' And I'd say, 'Well, they're published like this'. And they'd say, 'I read yesterday we're not going to do these V6s'.
"We've created an unstable environment and we're very good at that because we like arguing publicly and debating these things in an unhelpful way. "Manufacturers need to see it happen now. Even in the last few weeks, people have been saying, 'Oh, should we really go V6 next year?'.
"Christ, we're committed to it. Good, bad or indifferent, we've got to do it now. We've been saying it for long enough, we've delayed it long enough. "If I was on the board of a big OEM (original equipment manufacturer who was considering entering F1), I'd be saying, 'Let's wait a couple of years and see whether F1 actually does what it says it's going to do for a change'."
"The majority of the teams are in survival mode," Whitmarsh says. "So having longer-term strategic discussions, they glaze over. (They are more concerned about), 'How are we going to pay our freight bill to Australia?'."


Doesn't sound to me like the teams don't want the V6's... In fact Whitmarsh is pretty much saying "enough, let's just do it already"


Personally, I hope they confirm them - go through with them and then allow the teams some latitude to play around with the V6's to develop some performance gains through them, rather than locking them down tight for too many years like they have with the V8's.

I think that if the team were allowed to develop choose whether to chase aero or engine performance, we'd see some variety in how the teams develop...

:D :D :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:24 am 
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Gothalamide wrote:
Thing is, is it really the teams that don't want it or is it just Bernie pushing his own agenda...

I remember reading some interesting quotes in the following article (expansion of some included in pitpass article) - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21469518

Quote:
"F1 is pretty good at being self-destructive," Whitmarsh says. "Every other weekend we say, 'Shall we really go with the V6? Shall we stick with the V8s? Do we really want turbo-charging or shall we stick with the normally aspirated?'
"If I was facing the board of Hyundai or Toyota and saying, 'Come to F1 (as an engine supplier)', they'd say, 'What are the rules?' And I'd say, 'Well, they're published like this'. And they'd say, 'I read yesterday we're not going to do these V6s'.
"We've created an unstable environment and we're very good at that because we like arguing publicly and debating these things in an unhelpful way. "Manufacturers need to see it happen now. Even in the last few weeks, people have been saying, 'Oh, should we really go V6 next year?'.
"Christ, we're committed to it. Good, bad or indifferent, we've got to do it now. We've been saying it for long enough, we've delayed it long enough. "If I was on the board of a big OEM (original equipment manufacturer who was considering entering F1), I'd be saying, 'Let's wait a couple of years and see whether F1 actually does what it says it's going to do for a change'."
"The majority of the teams are in survival mode," Whitmarsh says. "So having longer-term strategic discussions, they glaze over. (They are more concerned about), 'How are we going to pay our freight bill to Australia?'."


Doesn't sound to me like the teams don't want the V6's... In fact Whitmarsh is pretty much saying "enough, let's just do it already"


Personally, I hope they confirm them - go through with them and then allow the teams some latitude to play around with the V6's to develop some performance gains through them, rather than locking them down tight for too many years like they have with the V8's.

I think that if the team were allowed to develop choose whether to chase aero or engine performance, we'd see some variety in how the teams develop...

:D :D :D

Whitmarsh is bang on. Of course teams don't want V6's, why would they when they're unpopular with fans and are going to cost more? But the switch to V6's is not as unpopular or damaging as all this engineered confusion surrounding it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:24 am 
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Too late to change now I'm afraid Bernie. The teams have spent millions upon millions along with the engine guys to make these new motors for next year. You can't cancel that with less than a year to go. It sounds like the teams don't care what kind of engine they use as long as they know which one they will be using.

One feels Bernie still would like to make his "breakaway" formula and by trying to get the FIA to cancel these new engine plans and therefore gherkin every team off in the process he would be even closer to it happening.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:57 pm 
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To bin the V6 engines now would be barmy, absolutely barmy. As MW says, no wonder it's so hard to persuade motor manufacturers to enter
(or re-enter) the sport.

"Yeah spend millions and millions on an engine formula, but be aware we might suddenly change our minds and stick with the old formula at the last minute."

Mental.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:59 pm 
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I am excited for the new engines, they are a radical change in the engine formula compared to what we have had for the last 24 years, which have been straightforwards normally aspirated engines which have evolved as far as they can due to the law of diminishing returns.

The new engine formula with forced induction, KERS and TERS multi hybrid systems will allow for a lot more clever engineering developments in the cars beyond aero, which is pretty much where the only development in the cars happen today. I find it ironic that the people who tend to complain about Formula 1 not being about the engine also tend to be the sort of people who complain about the new engines, when in fact the new formula will put far more emphasis on the engine than there has been in a long, long time.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:14 pm 
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How about Turbo V8s instead? ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Nuclear-assisted V-10's


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:31 pm 
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V12 with a flux capacitor.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Teams have spent millions as it is to build next years car around it along with making the engines in the first place. Cancelling it now would be dumb.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:47 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Too late to change anything now.

Not really, they could just continue with the current V8's, they'll just need to make a decision sooner rather than later if there really is any possibility of changing.

It won't change though, it's just Bernie being Bernie trying to keep everyone guessing about every aspect of the sport until the last minute. I'm quite looking forward to Australia 2014. Its always fun when regulations change, and this should be a big one. I'm hoping for a shake up at the front.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:50 pm 
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It only becomes too late when the 2014 regs are official. That hasn't happened yet.

Until pen goes on paper and Todt signs them it can still all change.

It's not as if the manufactures have 100+ engines built and ready to be bolted. They have done the R&D work and all manufacturers do R&D work for stuff that never sees the light of day.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:14 pm 
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When you digest that article in it's totality Bernie's agenda begins to reveal itself. He wants to shuffle the FIA out of the picture.

The Concorde Agreement is a three way deal between the teams, Bernie, and the FIA. Bernie has his deals with the teams all set up, and is putting forth self-serving arguments to rationalize why the FIA does not have to be there.

As far as the new V-6 turbo, that was started on the initiative of the FIA who desire more socially responsible and efficient engines. Bernie is going around and saying that the public don't like the sound of those new engines, even though the public has never even heard them. Ferrari, who manufacture V-12's and V-8,s don't want them because of marketing reasons, and are mouthing Bernie's opinion on engine sound. But other engine manufacturers have stated that the sound isn't that bad.

So why don't we wait and listen for ourselves? It doesn't make sense to form an opinion on an engine sound we haven't even heard yet. And if Bernie has suddenly become so sensitive to what the public like or dislike, then why the f--k didn't he step in when those awful stepped noses showed up?

All of this noise by Bernie is an obvious attempt to gain even more control of Formula One by eliminating the FIA.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
When you digest that article in it's totality Bernie's agenda begins to reveal itself. He wants to shuffle the FIA out of the picture.

That might be part of it, but I suspect the bigger reason for Bernie for banging on about it is more along the lines of something like this:

Teams: We need more money in the new Concorde Agreement
Bernie: If you need more money why are you wasting lots on new expensive engines?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
V12 with a flux capacitor.

That'll be even less exciting if Vettel won yesterday :D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:06 pm 
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I would very much doubt anyone will let the FIA out of the picture.

When you get a FIA sanctioned license there is a wee bit in the small print that says you won't compete in any non-FIA sanctioned events. If you do the FIA/Local body can revoke your motorsport Licence.

That means that if the FIA want to get really shirty and really chocolate fudge cake things up they can revoke the licence of any one that competes in F1. That means that any driver that goes into F1 wouldn't be able to race in any other series afterwards. So the likes of Heidfeld couldn't do sports cars. Fisi couldn't go to the AF corse. So basically your racing career is over. As much as the lure of F1 is will any driver enter (Especially at todays cost for drivers) if it means there is chance a year or even one race done the line their racing career is over?

It also has implications for GP2 and every other support race because I very much doubt they FIA would let the FIA sanctioned support events tag along with the NON sanctioned F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:10 pm 
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@Blinky: We dont really know if Bernie takes decisions selfishly for his own profit. A doubt doesnt make it a fact. Secondly Bernie has been against the engine change right from the beginning. Infact even the circuit owners voiced their concerns sumtime ago starting with Australia. He didnt wake up yesterday just to oppose it. Im not sure I understand your argument about the step nose. There wasnnt any public outrage over that. His main concern has always been the cost factor of the engines. Hes been against it right from the time it was proposed. Currently the engines prices ranges from 8m-10m euro. Redbull pays Infinity 10m Euros, and the new engines may cost twice that. How will some of the lower teams overcome that cost. Like I said on a different thread, for the manufacturing teams it will not be a problem, but the customer teams its a different matter. How are the smaller teams gonna raise that much money. Unless the Manufacturers can sell them at a loss to the other teams then all will be fine. But then again when have you heard of teams being that charitable.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Another thing is Bernie is not trying to sideline the FIA to start his own breakaway series. It was Ferrari and a few other whole were threatening a breakaway series. NOT Bernie. He has always opposed it. The FIA has sold him the commercial right for 99 yrs. Its gonna be more profitable for him to host F1 rather than Setting up a breakaway series because an FIA backed race holds more value than a non backed one. The FIA wants they could pressure the circuit owners from entertaining the breakaway series. Even the sponsors may back out. So its not so easy to start a whole new series. Bernie is a smart guy. Hes the guy trying to keep the teams together. Ofcourse he will profit from it but so will the teams. Just a fact, even though the Concorde agreement has not been signed, from this year the teams are gonna get 63% of all the revenue earned in F1 compared to 57% last year.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:37 pm 
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I say keep the gun to their heads to keep working on the new regs cars, then toward the end of the year, delay them til 2015. If they said right now, "okay we wait another year" the teams would ease their preparations immediately and still not be ready come 2015. If you keep them at it now, then give them a break at the end of the year, they will have most of the work done, and another year to make it better. Makes for an all around smoother transition I think, to less detriment of the smaller teams' current on track efforts.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
When you digest that article in it's totality Bernie's agenda begins to reveal itself. He wants to shuffle the FIA out of the picture.

That might be part of it, but I suspect the bigger reason for Bernie for banging on about it is more along the lines of something like this:

Teams: We need more money in the new Concorde Agreement
Bernie: If you need more money why are you wasting lots on new expensive engines?

I think the hope is that the increased cost of the engines would be offset by the resulting increase in sponsorship revenue. Wasn't that the whole point of the new engine regs, to improve F1's image to non-motorsport fans and therefore making it more appealing to sponsors?


Anyway I suspect that the one thing the teams really don't want is Ecclestone.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:28 pm 
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Its funny how much Bernie gets slated for some of his decisions. Agreed not all his decisions are spot on, but then he is only human. We tend to forget that it was him and Max Mosley that made F1 what it is today. Thats 2 brains and 4 hands only. More than once he has helped smaller teams survive so that they can race. Minardi is a good example. Its was his idea (Bernie Vision) to sell the tv rights so that maximum number of people can watch it. That is why you and I can sit at home watch a race and discuss it here. Its got such widespread audience today, that is why various Sponsors want to associate with the sport and have for such a long time. F1 is actually very cost effective way of marketing a company worldwide rather than doing TV ads for different markets. Who would have thought Redbull would win 3 WCCs when they joined. But they have and people still consider it an Energy Drink company. Earlier team owners would invest a lot of their own money and earn very little profit or none at all. The Concorde agreement was his idea. He started sharing the revenue earned out of various deals with the teams. This year it 63%. Ask Ron Dennis and Frank Williams how they earned their millions. Williams doesnt sell cars. Ron started selling cars quite recently. Thats how much money Bernie has brought in.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:16 pm 
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j man wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
When you digest that article in it's totality Bernie's agenda begins to reveal itself. He wants to shuffle the FIA out of the picture.

That might be part of it, but I suspect the bigger reason for Bernie for banging on about it is more along the lines of something like this:

Teams: We need more money in the new Concorde Agreement
Bernie: If you need more money why are you wasting lots on new expensive engines?

I think the hope is that the increased cost of the engines would be offset by the resulting increase in sponsorship revenue. Wasn't that the whole point of the new engine regs, to improve F1's image to non-motorsport fans and therefore making it more appealing to sponsors?


Anyway I suspect that the one thing the teams really don't want is Ecclestone.

I didn't mean to imply that exchange was my point of view. Ecclestone deals in simplistic arguments with false logic that appeal to people who believe what they read in newspapers.

Ecclestone knows that 99% of the people who say "they'll never watch F1 again if X happens" won't actually leave. He knows that the fans who would prefer the V8 engines will still watch it if the cars were powered by hampsters running around in little wheels. He knows that the change in engine spec will raise the profile of the sport as the media will be doing big pieces on "The new engines in F1" at the start of the 2014 season. He knows that it will appeal more to the people who buy into the Prius lifestyle - even if the petrol combusted in the cars at racing is an insignificant fraction of the pollution created by Formula 1.

Ecclestone knows that the new engines will only have a positive effect on the profile of the sport, however due to the expense of developing the new engines (even if doing so more than pays for itself in terms of the added revenue it brings in) it gives him an easy stick to knock back the arguments of the teams that they are struggling for money when they are sinking a ton of money into developing new powerplants.

He says the engines are expensive to develop and the teams and fans don't want them. The teams then say they do want them. He then says they could save money by not making them, so they can't really be that desperate for money. If they then say "but the engines will generate more money in the long run" he can still tell them "well then you don't need more from me then."

The argument doesn't make sense under scrutiny by anyone with a modicum of knowledge in the sport, but the argument isn't taking place between followers of the sport, it's taken by investors who are only looking at the figures. And when the teams have sunk a load of money into developing expensive new engines that Bernie says they don't need that's all they need to know.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:26 pm 
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From a driver and designers point of view I can't really comment, as a fan though I'm not that bothered at the moment. Engines have changed over the years for either technical advancements or cost cutting/regs and I'm not sure how its really changed the racing from a fans perspective.

It's certainly never got close to the changes refueling or dramatic tyre changes have made. We like to think the engine is this glorious thing in F1 but these days it's just a small part of the whole sport for us fans.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:00 am 
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May I just point out that one of the most successful cars in the history of F1 was the McLaren MP4 1998, & guess what what - that was powered by a V6 Turbo!

So to say that changing to the V6 is wrong because the engine will sound different is ludicrous! I watched F1 in the 80s & it was a hell of a lot more exciting than F1 in 00s


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:43 am 
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I recon 2014 will be a total wreck havoc. Huge unreliability issues and never mind the smaller teams, they're already toasted, let alone introducing something so radically sensitive. Bigger teams might have better chances like McLaren, Ferrari, Merc & Red Bull (maybe Lotus). As for the others, they're toast. Time differences will be huge (so I reckon). :(

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:50 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
And I would rather have new V6 turbos at this point with Freeze on current V8 engine development.

Makes no sense to me. The engine formula is set in stone either way and just like the V8's, everything related to the max HP and Revs will be frozen equally in the V6's as well as the boost settings. Some will argue that it's how, when and where the boost is applied that will make the difference but that's no different than all the timing and mapping with the current engines. Everyone reaches the same max Revs in different ways and times and the same will apply to the V6 Turbos.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:15 am 
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Think they should allow engine development for the first season, and limited development for the next, before freezing it. What if someone shows up with a weaker engine, they're stuck with that for 10 years? no, they alone will be allowed to "bring it up to the power of the others", which is not fair to the others who did a better job -- and they may have other, less-prolific disadvantages frozen in, such as cooling and fuel efficiency.

Let 'em all do their best for 1-2 seasons, then freeze it there. Whoever did a better job deserves the advantage.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:45 am 
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Too late as others have stated. Also, I would love it if they could tune the exhausts to make it sound like the v10s : D


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:44 am 
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minchy wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
V12 with a flux capacitor.
That'll be even less exciting if Vettel won yesterday :D
Even worse if nobody was allowed to go at 88mph or above.

On a more serious note - I'm with AlienTurnedHuman who states that with ever-diminishing returns on development of normally-aspirated engines coupled with the development freeze has placed all the emphasis on aerodynamic development to the point where it is increasingly difficult to follow a car through a corner to allow draft for overtaking (why do you think DRS was introduced?). Moving to V6s with turbos coupled with more (K)ERS use will place more emphasis on powertrain development and see some diversity between teams innterms of how it is interpreted.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:53 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Moving to V6s with turbos coupled with more (K)ERS use will place more emphasis on powertrain development and see some diversity between teams innterms of how it is interpreted.


Yeah,but... it's going to be frozen before the season even starts!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:15 am 
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GicaEric wrote:
I recon 2014 will be a total wreck havoc. Huge unreliability issues and never mind the smaller teams, they're already toasted, let alone introducing something so radically sensitive. Bigger teams might have better chances like McLaren, Ferrari, Merc & Red Bull (maybe Lotus). As for the others, they're toast. Time differences will be huge (so I reckon). :(



More unreliability will be good for the smaller teams. It'll give them much more of a shot at scoring points than is the case with so many bullet-proof cars in front of them now.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:27 am 
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cmberry20 wrote:
May I just point out that one of the most successful cars in the history of F1 was the McLaren MP4 1998, & guess what what - that was powered by a V6 Turbo!

So to say that changing to the V6 is wrong because the engine will sound different is ludicrous! I watched F1 in the 80s & it was a hell of a lot more exciting than F1 in 00s



I think you mean the MP4-4 of 1988. The MP4-13 of '98 was a V10 ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:43 am 
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the incubus wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
And I would rather have new V6 turbos at this point with Freeze on current V8 engine development.

Makes no sense to me. The engine formula is set in stone either way and just like the V8's, everything related to the max HP and Revs will be frozen equally in the V6's as well as the boost settings. Some will argue that it's how, when and where the boost is applied that will make the difference but that's no different than all the timing and mapping with the current engines. Everyone reaches the same max Revs in different ways and times and the same will apply to the V6 Turbos.


Sure, but it gives everyone a chance to design something better. Those with less drivable engines like Cosworth had last time around, were stuck. Likes of Renault were stuck with lower pure grunt. Likes of Ferrari were stuck with less fuel efficiency and slight power disadvantage over renault and merc respectively.
Same thing can happen again, but it gives them chance to rectify those things with new engines. And they have had long time to develop the same now.
As a fan, I see 90% of my races on TV, noise really makes no difference to me. And even when watching live, I would care less about sound when I have Alonso and Vettel battling it out at the same corner on track. In the end it is all about spectacle. Every sport has to change a bit with time, even if it is for political reasons or for the image of the sport. The high cost, high performance sport like F1 had to change over time. Small engines with big power output with Turbos and Hybrid design is the new trend. It is already making its way in road cars and sports cars. F1 cannot stay where they are indefinitely.

And as far as development is concerned, you can be rest assured that limited development will happen. If not for performance, then for reliability. Same way current engines were allowed to change a bit even with the freeze in place.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:55 am 
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I like the thought of how a V6 turbo might sound.

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