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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:25 am 
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It'll be fun watching them race Mondeo engines.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:02 am 
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Johnston wrote:
cmberry20 wrote:
May I just point out that one of the most successful cars in the history of F1 was the McLaren MP4-4 1988, & guess what what - that was powered by a V6 Turbo!

So to say that changing to the V6 is wrong because the engine will sound different is ludicrous! I watched F1 in the 80s & it was a hell of a lot more exciting than F1 in 00s



I think you mean the MP4-4 of 1988. The MP4-13 of '98 was a V10 ;)


Yes I Did!! Doh. (I just replicated of your avatar pic!)
That will teach me to post comments while drunk.

Cant see what the fuss is about - V6 Turbos have been in F1 before & nobody was complaining about what noise the cars make!
If it is a issue, just get some chavs to stick a halfords fat exhaust on the F1 cars - they seem to think it makes 1.1 Litre Corsas sound sporty.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:08 am 
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moby wrote:
It'll be fun watching them race Mondeo engines.


Well they're running round with Mustang engines no probs at the moment, although I suspect they have more than 300hp on tap.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:16 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
moby wrote:
It'll be fun watching them race Mondeo engines.


Well they're running round with Mustang engines no probs at the moment, although I suspect they have more than 300hp on tap.

The V6 Mondeos had larger displacement than the V8s they run now, the V6s will have smaller displacement than a typical Mondeo. Obviously, I know the comments are facetious, but these engines are so far removed from the engines in road going cars any attempt to relate them has no basis in reality. The engines have never been muscle car engines, or even super car engines. Extracting 750bhp from a naturally aspirated 2.4 litre engine makes these engines the most incredible naturally aspirated engines on the planet, and the 1.6 turbo charged units are going to take that leap even further.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
moby wrote:
It'll be fun watching them race Mondeo engines.


Well they're running round with Mustang engines no probs at the moment, although I suspect they have more than 300hp on tap.

The V6 Mondeos had larger displacement than the V8s they run now, the V6s will have smaller displacement than a typical Mondeo. Obviously, I know the comments are facetious, but these engines are so far removed from the engines in road going cars any attempt to relate them has no basis in reality. The engines have never been muscle car engines, or even super car engines. Extracting 750bhp from a naturally aspirated 2.4 litre engine makes these engines the most incredible naturally aspirated engines on the planet, and the 1.6 turbo charged units are going to take that leap even further.


My point is that it's not worth comparing an F1 engine with a road car engine.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:33 am 
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The teams don't want Bernie to continue to take more than half of the revenue from F1 either...

fat chance of changing that too

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:49 pm 
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There's been some wonderfully insightful comments, it reminds me why I like this forum, that I learn a lot.

Last night I was watching a video named "Secret Life of F1" http://youtu.be/v5WP-IqICI8 (highly recommended) and at 21:00 a statement was made that we should never forget. It states that basically there are two types of fans, the ones who go to the races, and the ones who really matter, the TV audience.

Through TV Formula One is watched by hundreds of millions each race, a persistent global presence that is not lost to the advertising world. It's that advertising money that powers the sport, something that Bernie knows every second of his existence.

Many of us are die-hard fans, we will watch Formula One no matter what, even if the exhausts sound like Uncle Fred's flatulence. It would take something traumatic to alter our passion and devotion to this wonderful sport. We don't matter to Bernie's machinations, we are already locked in to watching the racing. But it's others, the casual TV audience are the ones that he is trying to influence, and that's a fact we should not lose sight of whenever we discuss Bernie.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:55 pm 
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cmberry20 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
cmberry20 wrote:
May I just point out that one of the most successful cars in the history of F1 was the McLaren MP4-4 1988, & guess what what - that was powered by a V6 Turbo!

So to say that changing to the V6 is wrong because the engine will sound different is ludicrous! I watched F1 in the 80s & it was a hell of a lot more exciting than F1 in 00s



I think you mean the MP4-4 of 1988. The MP4-13 of '98 was a V10 ;)


Yes I Did!! Doh. (I just replicated of your avatar pic!)
That will teach me to post comments while drunk.

Cant see what the fuss is about - V6 Turbos have been in F1 before & nobody was complaining about what noise the cars make!
If it is a issue, just get some chavs to stick a halfords fat exhaust on the F1 cars - they seem to think it makes 1.1 Litre Corsas sound sporty.



You're right. Nobody did complain about the sound of the engines during the turbo era. Most of those spitting their dummies out now about how bad they're going to sound weren't even born when F1 cars last had turbo engines.

They'll sound just fine. Different, but fine. Maybe even better than the current V8's, which don't sound too great on TV in my opinion when compared to previous incarnations.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:59 pm 
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I might make an app that people can use when watching an F1 race. You mute your TV and then select the engine noise you like the most. So if the sound of the V6s is a deal breaker you can just load up the V8 sound and play it through your surround sound system.

I'll charge a dollar for it and by all accounts I'll be richer than Bernie because of how much of a dealbreaker the new engine sounds will be.

In reality though I think I'll be lucky to get my Apple developer's license fee back.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:02 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
The teams don't want Bernie to continue to take more than half of the revenue from F1 either...

fat chance of changing that too

FYI until last year the teams were getting 57%. Thats more the 50% and this year the teams are getting 63% of the revenues. Thats still more than 50% last time I checked.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:14 pm 
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@JohnnyGuitar and the rest: The Sound argument was started by the circuit owners saying it will put off the spectators. For the teams that has Never been the main concern. What Bernie is talking about the cost of the engines. The current engine deal for most teams is around 7M to 10M, Many experts say that cost will DOUBLE with all the R&D invested i it

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I might make an app that people can use when watching an F1 race. You mute your TV and then select the engine noise you like the most. So if the sound of the V6s is a deal breaker you can just load up the V8 sound and play it through your surround sound system.

I'll charge a dollar for it and by all accounts I'll be richer than Bernie because of how much of a dealbreaker the new engine sounds will be.

In reality though I think I'll be lucky to get my Apple developer's license fee back.


Hmm, if you can squeeze in a V-12 I might give you my credit card number......... ;)

How would you do it, have a filter to accept just the high frequency noise, and translate that into a V-8 (or V-12 in my case)? Take the sound of a turbo V-6, double the frequency and make the amplitude more extreme?

Back to topic, I've watched Formula One for many years, and although I revel in their glorious sounds, I also never lost any sleep when engine formulas changed. I missed them with fond remembrance (as many do with the V-10's) but I still faithfully watched every race.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:51 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
the incubus wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
And I would rather have new V6 turbos at this point with Freeze on current V8 engine development.

Makes no sense to me. The engine formula is set in stone either way and just like the V8's, everything related to the max HP and Revs will be frozen equally in the V6's as well as the boost settings. Some will argue that it's how, when and where the boost is applied that will make the difference but that's no different than all the timing and mapping with the current engines. Everyone reaches the same max Revs in different ways and times and the same will apply to the V6 Turbos.


Sure, but it gives everyone a chance to design something better. Those with less drivable engines like Cosworth had last time around, were stuck. Likes of Renault were stuck with lower pure grunt. Likes of Ferrari were stuck with less fuel efficiency and slight power disadvantage over renault and merc respectively.
Same thing can happen again, but it gives them chance to rectify those things with new engines. And they have had long time to develop the same now.
As a fan, I see 90% of my races on TV, noise really makes no difference to me. And even when watching live, I would care less about sound when I have Alonso and Vettel battling it out at the same corner on track. In the end it is all about spectacle. Every sport has to change a bit with time, even if it is for political reasons or for the image of the sport. The high cost, high performance sport like F1 had to change over time. Small engines with big power output with Turbos and Hybrid design is the new trend. It is already making its way in road cars and sports cars. F1 cannot stay where they are indefinitely.

And as far as development is concerned, you can be rest assured that limited development will happen. If not for performance, then for reliability. Same way current engines were allowed to change a bit even with the freeze in place.

I hear what you're trying to say but either way all of those same pitfalls and shortcomings will apply to the engines only the order might be reshuffled a tad and once the engines are approved they will not be changing outside of some minor things that would be changed universally by all the manufacturers which might then change it up a wee bit more.

I also watch my races on TV but the noise does in fact have an impact on me because I have a killer surround sound system and when I'm watching my family knows what I'm watching because they can feel it. ;) I've been a motor sports fan my entire life and for me there has never been a more beautiful sound than the larger F1 engines and the CART engines from back in the day. All this talk about the FIA wanting to conform in order to have what they perceive to be "greater appeal' to the casual watcher (let's stop using the word fan) is nothing more than total and utter BS. A casual watcher has absolutely no idea about anything going on in a race and if you ask them what they think is going on about 90% would likely say oh just a bunch of cars going around in circles. The engines don't matter to the casual watcher because they just couldn't be bothered to know anything and most watch for only a short period of time. REAL fans like us who eat, breathe, sleep, poop, and live for the thrill of F1 know what we like because we have the experience to KNOW what's what and what IS more appealing to us as passionate followers of the sport.

Adding to that last bit, smaller turbo engines are old technology in the most basic sense which is likely the maximum level of interest for the casual watcher and IF the FIA's goal is to prove more appealing to the casual watchers, those peoples' level of enthusiasm over such knowledge would be exactly this or less:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcH-3d-BZn4


This is total nonsense, and in the pinnacle of motorsport (I don't want to hear that F1 is no longer that) engines should be a bit ferocious in every way and with the manufacturers like Ferrari, like Mercedes, Like McLaren who build exotic Super Cars of which a great deal of appeal is derived from their monstrously powerful engines and the sounds they emanate, it makes no sense for them to be forced to run smaller engines in order to TRY and grow the fan base. Those who watch the sport and get hooked do so because of the competitiveness and the speed of the cars and the amazing abilities of the drivers. Sure, many things can have a direct affect on that but with all the restrictions in place in today's F1, why punish the fans with things we don't want rather than go with what we love?


Makes no sense to me in any way and it never will and I don't care about the casual watchers as they don't care about the sport in any capacity. Hell, i even know this one guy I used to work with who's life goal was to own a Ferrari because he had to have one and he finally did and the guy has never watched an F1 race. Ironically most of the people in his Ferrari club haven't either.


I will ALWAYS long for the return of V10's and 12's and NOTHING WILL EVER COME CLOSE!!!


NOTHING says hello race track, welcome fans quite like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT36kC2pwAc (20 second mark - SPLOOGE!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVBuTMCpIeE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNbgqBnHrMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1InrgZiv30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybXC1Y6tAa8 (from the 1 minute mark on)

They sound like fighter Jets and the sound communicates SPEED.


Catalog is in so back to work, Rant over! LOL

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:53 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I might make an app that people can use when watching an F1 race. You mute your TV and then select the engine noise you like the most. So if the sound of the V6s is a deal breaker you can just load up the V8 sound and play it through your surround sound system.

I'll charge a dollar for it and by all accounts I'll be richer than Bernie because of how much of a dealbreaker the new engine sounds will be.

In reality though I think I'll be lucky to get my Apple developer's license fee back.


Hmm, if you can squeeze in a V-12 I might give you my credit card number......... ;)

How would you do it, have a filter to accept just the high frequency noise, and translate that into a V-8 (or V-12 in my case)? Take the sound of a turbo V-6, double the frequency and make the amplitude more extreme?

Back to topic, I've watched Formula One for many years, and although I revel in their glorious sounds, I also never lost any sleep when engine formulas changed. I missed them with fond remembrance (as many do with the V-10's) but I still faithfully watched every race.

Doubling the sound resonance will simply make the roar smoother more seamless but the tone will not change.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:04 pm 
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flyer wrote:
Think they should allow engine development for the first season, and limited development for the next, before freezing it. What if someone shows up with a weaker engine, they're stuck with that for 10 years? no, they alone will be allowed to "bring it up to the power of the others", which is not fair to the others who did a better job -- and they may have other, less-prolific disadvantages frozen in, such as cooling and fuel efficiency.

Let 'em all do their best for 1-2 seasons, then freeze it there. Whoever did a better job deserves the advantage.

I think by now the teams have more than enough knowledge to know what type of loads the engines will be under and what amount of cooling, acceleration rates, etc to follow along the correct path. The V8's when released were all pretty much up to similar power levels and only Cosworthless since 2009 has been at a power disadvantage without much if any improvement. The ONLY modifications they should be allowed to make are to strengthen components should they be prone to failure.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:37 am 
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One interesting point I would like to bring up is that the turbo V-6's are designed with the same mounting points. In theory, you could take a Renault out of a car and install a Mercedes, or Ferrari powerplant with minor modifications. This is a double-edged sword. For the engine manufacturers, if you get it wrong a team could switch to other engine manufacturers. For the teams, you could dump the engine if it isn't up to par.

This also makes it appealing for engine manufacturers presently not engaged in Formula one, such as .. cough cough, Honda. They could build a Formula One engine not specific to any one chassis.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Renault unveils first images of its 2014 Formula 1 V6 turbo engine

Renault has unveiled the first images of the new V6 turbo engine that it believes will help attract fans back to Formula 1.

The new 1.6-litre turbocharged unit has already run extensively on the dyno at Renault's Viry-Chatillon facilities, but will not have its track debut until the start of next year.

Renault Sport's F1 chief Jean-Michel Jalinier believes that the move to more economical, technologically advanced engines will prove to be a big boost for both car makers and the sport itself.

"It will be a better tool to communicate than the current V8 engine," he explained.

"We can get some fans back to F1."

Renault's engine technical director Rob White also believes that the new power-units will provide a good spectacle as well as being more relevant than the current V8 engines.

"F1 is still going to be very loud, it is still going to be a very violent event," he said.

"You can see on the test bed that even with relatively slow shifts on a relatively low transient dyno, that gear shifts are rapid and violent.

"And the big glowing red thing at the back of the engine in front of the gearbox [the Energy Recovery System] is also going to be a thing of some spectacle."


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:12 pm 
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I recall the old turbo engines used to spit out huge flames when down-shifting (slowing down) will we see the same fire works with the new engines?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:29 pm 
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When are they going to post an mp3 of one of them on a dyno -- or do they sound so bad they'll just keep that to themselves until next year?

Testing next year is going to be interesting...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:51 am 
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johnp wrote:
I recall the old turbo engines used to spit out huge flames when down-shifting (slowing down) will we see the same fire works with the new engines?


No


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:45 am 
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flyer wrote:
When are they going to post an mp3 of one of them on a dyno -- or do they sound so bad they'll just keep that to themselves until next year?

Testing next year is going to be interesting...



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105081

"At Brixworth today, Mercedes-Benz delivered its definitive answer to the debate when it played the audio from a dyno simulated lap of the Monza track.

And the smiles around the table of those hearing it for the first time delivered a conclusive answer that fans will have little to worry about.

Yes, the high-pitched shriek of the V8 engines hitting the rev limiter at 18,000rpm may be gone, but the new deeper noise is certainly nothing to be disappointed about.

There is still a solidness to the sound; one that will be amplified when the engines are put onto racing cars with proper exhausts and allowed to play flat-chat on race tracks around the world.

Mercedes' engine chief Andy Cowell reckons the new engines actually sound 'sweeter' than the current V8s, and no one present today could disagree.

The state of secrecy in F1 means that audio of the engines will not be ready for public consumption for a while – for even the sound could provide an advantage to rivals – but fans should rest assured that there is little to fear from what is coming in 2014.

You will still need your ear plugs next year. And that is great news."


Last edited by JohnnyGuitar on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:47 am 
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So Renault has put the new engine on display then. Anyone heard the sound of it?

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