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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Pirelli trash the tryes for this year again so millions of pit stops again, tip toeing round track etc. :( :evil: :-((


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:04 pm 
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I agree.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:15 pm 
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GoOnJenson wrote:
I agree.


I disagree


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Its not like Pirelli mission statement is "Sabotage F1". Its the FIA and FOM that has asked them to do it...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:28 pm 
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chrcoluk wrote:
Pirelli trash the tryes for this year again so millions of pit stops again, tip toeing round track etc. :( :evil: :-((

:uhoh:

FIA/FOM asked Pirelli to make such a tires.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
I agree.


I disagree


I reserve judgement.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Some wish to watch pure sprints where the order rarely changes. Others wish to watch the best drivers in the world race for 300 kilometers and deal with opportunity, strategy from others, racecraft, obstacles and problems, and tires deliberately designed to force strategy and tactics many levels above just pure sprints.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:15 am 
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Given we witnessed one of the best, most closely contested, most entertaining seasons (certainly in my time of watching the sport) last year, I say more of this sort of thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:53 am 
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The start of last year was a lottery nothing more. Random winner every race.

It may well be bernie's request of course as some consider a different winner every race to be what fans want even tho its artifical.

The early signs dont bode well tho multiple teams saying there is fast degradation on new tryes.

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Some wish to watch pure sprints where the order rarely changes. Others wish to watch the best drivers in the world race for 300 kilometers and deal with opportunity, strategy from others, racecraft, obstacles and problems, and tires deliberately designed to force strategy and tactics many levels above just pure sprints.


Some of us dont consider tip toeing managing tryes to be racing, thats more endurance. Also the USA race wasnt processional, neither were many of the latter races. But if I had your 2 scenarios as a hard choice I have to say I would prefer fast procession to false racing.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:59 am 
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the best races of last year were races in which tyres were not critical


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:03 am 
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chrcoluk wrote:
Some of us dont consider tip toeing managing tryes to be racing, thats more endurance. Also the USA race wasnt processional, neither were many of the latter races. But if I had your 2 scenarios as a hard choice I have to say I would prefer fast procession to false racing.


That is your right. But Formula One is approximately 300 kilometers, it is not a sprint race. And managing tires is part and parcel of every motor race since day one, even in the decade of the 2000's. Seriously, if you want to watch all-out sprint racing, I suggest you go watch hill climbs, or WTTC.

Formula One is just like a soccer match, it is approximately 90 minutes long and many things happen as the game is played out. I don't ask that 85 minutes of a soccer match be cut out so that I can see 5 minutes of sprinting, and to ask that Formula One be transformed into a pure sprint event is just the same thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:13 am 
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I don't like the constant use of the term, 'lottery,' when talking about the beginning of last season. As a Formula One team, you are expected to set up a car and get the best out of it, each weekend. It was by no luck at all, that certain teams were more capable of getting on top of the tyres at particular venues. I hate that rather than being commended on it, their achievements are labelled as 'luck.'

To add to that, being able to conserve tyres through a race and make a strategy work is just as commendable as it is for a driver to race around on the limit, in my opinion. Sure, I'd love to see drivers absolutely ripping their cars through the corners.. I'd love to see some nail-biting onboard footage of that kind of racing, but at the same time, I love watching how certain drivers' strategies are going to play out from the start of a race to the end.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:18 am 
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chrcoluk wrote:
The start of last year was a lottery nothing more. Random winner every race.


Balderdash. In the first half of the season all but two races were won by previous, regular race winners in competitive machinery that was expected to be fighting for wins (arguably with the exception of the Ferrari at that point, but weather came in to play).
Rosberg had a flawless win in China at a time when Mercedes were fast, before they fell behind in the development race. A win that, arguably, was overdue.
Maldonado was the only surprise 'random', if you like, race winner. The only reason it was a surprise is because he was a relative rookie and no one expected it given Williams' 2011 performance. But they had a genuinely good car and Maldonado showed plenty of times throughout the season it was a fast machine when he wasn't crashing it. At Catalunya they just got it right and benefitted from Hamilton's woes.

The only other winner throughout the entire season that hadn't been winning races regularly over the past few years was Raikkonen, and that's because he wasn't even in the sport. He's a World Champion in a car that was always threatening the front runners with multiple podium visits in both drivers hands. Hardly a 'random' result.

So no. It absolutely wasn't a 'lottery'. The tyres were the same for all the teams and the team/driver combo who got the best out of them and their package did well. The same as it's always been. Nothing artificial about it at all.

Want artificial? Try a tyre war with one brand giving a significant advantage to some teams over others, even if they designed a poorer car and had a worse driver.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:55 am 
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Megamoss wrote:
So no. It absolutely wasn't a 'lottery'. The tyres were the same for all the teams and the team/driver combo who got the best out of them and their package did well. The same as it's always been. Nothing artificial about it at all.


:thumbup: +759.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:25 am 
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Megamoss wrote:
chrcoluk wrote:
The start of last year was a lottery nothing more. Random winner every race.


Balderdash. In the first half of the season all but two races were won by previous, regular race winners in competitive machinery that was expected to be fighting for wins (arguably with the exception of the Ferrari at that point, but weather came in to play).
Rosberg had a flawless win in China at a time when Mercedes were fast, before they fell behind in the development race. A win that, arguably, was overdue.
Maldonado was the only surprise 'random', if you like, race winner. The only reason it was a surprise is because he was a relative rookie and no one expected it given Williams' 2011 performance. But they had a genuinely good car and Maldonado showed plenty of times throughout the season it was a fast machine when he wasn't crashing it. At Catalunya they just got it right and benefitted from Hamilton's woes.

The only other winner throughout the entire season that hadn't been winning races regularly over the past few years was Raikkonen, and that's because he wasn't even in the sport. He's a World Champion in a car that was always threatening the front runners with multiple podium visits in both drivers hands. Hardly a 'random' result.

So no. It absolutely wasn't a 'lottery'. The tyres were the same for all the teams and the team/driver combo who got the best out of them and their package did well. The same as it's always been. Nothing artificial about it at all.

Want artificial? Try a tyre war with one brand giving a significant advantage to some teams over others, even if they designed a poorer car and had a worse driver.

Totally agree. I was around for the processions. And I was around for the era of dirty air. I don't have a 2 sec attention span so I still remember that fairy cakes. When there were maybe 2 good races a year. When 'how can they improve overtaking' was the only thing talked about. When it was impossible to introduce new people to the sport because there was 1 fight for position that took 10 secs for the whole 90min long race.

I never want to go back to that.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:15 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
the best races of last year were races in which tyres were not critical


And so were most of the boring ones.

I disagree anyway some of the best races occurred with high tyre deg. e.g Canada/Valencia


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:17 am 
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chrcoluk wrote:
Pirelli trash the tryes for this year again so millions of pit stops again, tip toeing round track etc. :( :evil: :-((

I really don't understand why people are strawberry on the tyres, It's not like its made racing uninteresting/boring and strawberry on Pirelli, It's not they who came up with the idea. The higher ups asked them to do it as a result of the rubbish regulations that force teams to create more and more aero based performance instead of opening up engine development :S.
I for one enjoyed 2012 season so much thanks to the 'bubble gum' tyres. I would agree to a point that too much randomness is not good but neither was 2011 : (. I look forward to the 2013 Season with more of these degrading tyres ^ _ ^...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:02 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Some wish to watch pure sprints where the order rarely changes. Others wish to watch the best drivers in the world race for 300 kilometers and deal with opportunity, strategy from others, racecraft, obstacles and problems, and tires deliberately designed to force strategy and tactics many levels above just pure sprints.


I completely agree with this.
However, I fear Pirelli may be going too far in the former direction. Tyre strategy and management should be a part of Formula 1, but it should never dominate F1.

I also completely agree with the suggestion on random winners. Only Maldonado was the real 'freak' winner. Merc looked threatening throughout most early races, so Nico's win was no surprise. Even if Perez had won Malaysia, it would not have been freak since Sauber showed front-running pace at such circuits throughout the year.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:09 am 
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I thought last years Austin GP was one of the best races of the season. Yes the tyres were long lasting, but they were very hard which reduced grip levels throughout the weekend (compared to what the teams expected)

I think harder tyres with less mechanical grip is a better solution to bubble gum tyres.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:24 am 
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I sometimes find the style of argument used be a few in this thread rather tedious.

It's as though if one person is questioning the tyres Pirelli have been asked to provide, it must mean they would prefer short sprint races with no overtaking. If another person is happy with the Pirellis it's because they prefer a 'lottery' result. This is not a binary situation. There are many shades of grey in between, and the shade of grey suitable at one race is different from another's. I would prefer more predictable or more hard-wearing tyres for Spa, for example, whereas I would beg for a literal tyre lottery at Monaco.

Tyre management has always been an important aspect of F1, and I think any driver in F1 must be adept at managing tyres. However, last year, for me, at certain points tyre management became too dominant a factor in dictating the outcome of a race. Clearly this is still a learning curve for Pirelli and I'm happy to give them a little more time to perfect their compounds and their compound choices at each race.

Hopefully the data Pirelli collected last year will help to still produce great racing this year, but I wish that we could move away from the "more overtaking = better" philosophy. Just because there is more of something doesn't mean it's better. I would far far far more watch someone build up an overtake over 10-15 laps (a la Austin 2012) and then finally pull it off than to just cruise up behind and blast past. Overtaking moves are somewhat like any commodity - the more of them there are the less each individual one is worth.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:45 pm 
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The unpredictability of who was going to perform well and the high number of pitstops at the beginning of last year dissipated over the course of the season as the teams came to understand the tyres. IMO it's too early to predict what sort of impact the tyres are going to have. It may be similar to last year, it may be that teams struggle to figure the tyres out all year, or it may be that teams have a good understanding after the first couple of races and the races have a greater level of predictability from the get go.

I'd like to see Pirelli design tyres that are predictable for the teams but that allow for distinct variation in strategy. I felt last year that there was a bit too much guess-work in the earlier part of the season and whilst that made for exciting races it detracted from my enjoyment of the strategic side.

What I've been wondering is if it might be time to remove the 'mandatory use of both types of tyre' rule. AFAIK that was brought in because of the risk of the tyres being durable enough to last an entire race and the sport didn't want to end up with that sort of procession and remove the strategic side entirely. That was the case with Bridgestone but IMO it isn't the case with Pirelli. It might happen at the odd race, but not as a matter of course. IMO freeing up tyre use at races even more would increase the excitement and intrigue in races now.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:01 pm 
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its been said plenty of times in interviews that the conditions experienced so far are not representative of what they will have in australia and beyond so who's to say pirelli have messed anything up?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:08 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
I agree.


I disagree


I reserve judgement.

You're all wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Some wish to watch pure sprints where the order rarely changes. Others wish to watch the best drivers in the world race for 300 kilometers and deal with opportunity, strategy from others, racecraft, obstacles and problems, and tires deliberately designed to force strategy and tactics many levels above just pure sprints.

Jesus... really?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:21 pm 
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GoOnJenson wrote:
I agree.

I agree


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:37 pm 
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The tyres are the same for everyone. If A.Team has built a car that eats its rear tyres, tough sh!t...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
I agree.

I disagree

I reserve judgement.

You're all wrong.

I'll agree to disgree, provided you all reserve the judgement that you're all wrong

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
Balibari wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
GoOnJenson wrote:
I agree.

I disagree

I reserve judgement.

You're all wrong.

I'll agree to disgree, provided you all reserve the judgement that you're all wrong

Matt Damon


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
the best races of last year were races in which tyres were not critical


And so were most of the boring ones.

I disagree anyway some of the best races occurred with high tyre deg. e.g Canada/Valencia


none of the races where tyres weren't critical were boring, if you can think of one let me know because i cant, also Canada was the most anti-climactic race i've ever watched, Valencia was enjoyable because there were so many retirements and stuff not due to the tyres


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:01 pm 
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The wild and crazy results that some "blame" on Pirelli were mainly caused by the lack of testing. The tires were the same all season, but at the beginning the teams were still learning and developing, which gave the crazy results. Once the teams not only figured out the tires but developed equipment and procedures to deal with it, did the order settle down.

One good example is Button, he frequently complained about not being able to "switch on" the tires, to get them to their optimum temperatures. But McLaren were developing their adjustable brake ducts, and once they had them on the cars and sorted out, Button no longer had that issue.

This is an example of people pointing fingers and laying blame at what they believe is the culprit, without having the knowledge about what's really going on.

Right now, at this very moment they are testing at Barcelona. One big issue is the rapid tire degradation, the cars were losing a quarter of a second per lap. But as I watch the timing results being streamed in for today's test http://f1tests.info/2013.php I see some cars doing long runs, and maintaining a consistent pace. It's almost ten seconds slower than the quickest laps, but they are out there testing and discovering how to manage the tires. They are in the process of learning, discovering, and developing equipment and procedures.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:10 pm 
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spooky wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Balibari wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I disagree

I reserve judgement.

You're all wrong.

I'll agree to disgree, provided you all reserve the judgement that you're all wrong

Matt Damon


We ran out of time for him.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:17 pm 
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chrcoluk wrote:
The start of last year was a lottery nothing more. Random winner every race.

And yet, after the first seven races, with seven different winners, the top three drivers in the WDC table were (if I recall correctly): Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. What a complete random lottery! It's not as if those three are generally the consensus best drivers in the sport or anything. Oh, wait; yes they are.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
The tyres are the same for everyone. If A.Team has built a car that eats its rear tyres, tough sh!t...


That's a pretty rubbish argument, isn't it? Just because it's the same for everyone doesn't mean it's OK. If every team had to pit 10 times, no more no less, that would be the same for everyone. And it would be a strange race! And probably not for the best.

I agree that it's up to the teams to build cars that can make the tyres last, but the only issue I think rational people had is that sometimes at some races races last year it seemed as if tyre wear was too dominant a factor.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Megamoss wrote:
chrcoluk wrote:
The start of last year was a lottery nothing more. Random winner every race.


Balderdash. In the first half of the season all but two races were won by previous, regular race winners in competitive machinery that was expected to be fighting for wins (arguably with the exception of the Ferrari at that point, but weather came in to play).
Rosberg had a flawless win in China at a time when Mercedes were fast, before they fell behind in the development race. A win that, arguably, was overdue.
Maldonado was the only surprise 'random', if you like, race winner. The only reason it was a surprise is because he was a relative rookie and no one expected it given Williams' 2011 performance. But they had a genuinely good car and Maldonado showed plenty of times throughout the season it was a fast machine when he wasn't crashing it. At Catalunya they just got it right and benefitted from Hamilton's woes.

The only other winner throughout the entire season that hadn't been winning races regularly over the past few years was Raikkonen, and that's because he wasn't even in the sport. He's a World Champion in a car that was always threatening the front runners with multiple podium visits in both drivers hands. Hardly a 'random' result.

So no. It absolutely wasn't a 'lottery'. The tyres were the same for all the teams and the team/driver combo who got the best out of them and their package did well. The same as it's always been. Nothing artificial about it at all.

Want artificial? Try a tyre war with one brand giving a significant advantage to some teams over others, even if they designed a poorer car and had a worse driver.


They could have had 12 winners.

Perez Malaysia
Schumacher Monaco
Grosjean Valencia
Hulkenberg Brazil


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:09 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
spooky wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Balibari wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
I reserve judgement.

You're all wrong.

I'll agree to disgree, provided you all reserve the judgement that you're all wrong

Matt Damon


We ran out of time for him.

I disagree.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:11 pm 
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spooky wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Balibari wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree.
I disagree
I reserve judgement.
You're all wrong.
I'll agree to disgree, provided you all reserve the judgement that you're all wrong
Matt Damon

Matt Damon??? Sorry I didnt get that joke

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:57 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
the best races of last year were races in which tyres were not critical


And so were most of the boring ones.

I disagree anyway some of the best races occurred with high tyre deg. e.g Canada/Valencia


none of the races where tyres weren't critical were boring, if you can think of one let me know because i cant, also Canada was the most anti-climactic race i've ever watched, Valencia was enjoyable because there were so many retirements and stuff not due to the tyres


I loved Canada especially Grosjean and Perez coming through, great mix of strategies. I also Loved Bahrain and Spain and that is something I never thought I would say. India was pretty dull and a lot of people said Korea was bad.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:59 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Seanie wrote:
The tyres are the same for everyone. If A.Team has built a car that eats its rear tyres, tough sh!t...


That's a pretty rubbish argument, isn't it? Just because it's the same for everyone doesn't mean it's OK. If every team had to pit 10 times, no more no less, that would be the same for everyone. And it would be a strange race! And probably not for the best.

I agree that it's up to the teams to build cars that can make the tyres last, but the only issue I think rational people had is that sometimes at some races races last year it seemed as if tyre wear was too dominant a factor.


Actually as long as that happened in only one race it would be pretty exciting.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
Matt Damon??? Sorry I didnt get that joke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUa5oHgYV2k

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:39 pm 
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First of all, the content of the OP and the title of the thread is very misleading.

Second, I'm all for fragile tyres that degrade. I just don't want a narrow working range in the tyres that suddenly fall off the cliff. That's just a lottery then.

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