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 Post subject: Dry sump or Wet sump?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Does anyone know what formula 1 cars use? I would imagine they use a dry sump oil system but I dot think I've ever seen an oil tank on the cars.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Obviously it is dry sump oil system. The Oil tanks are usually very narrow and cylindrical and hidden away in very small area making it difficult to identify even when we see naked shots of the car engine bay.
Here are the pics of Cosworth oil tank. They are old from 2005 I guess, but still should give you an idea.

http://www.conceptracing.co.uk/arrow-f1-oil-tank/


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:08 am 
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Dry sump. In a wet sump the oil can splash about and drag the crankshaft down in power. And under hard cornering, there is the chance the oil pickup could be sucking air and not oil, not a good thing for the engine. Dry sump is the only way to go for any racing engine. Even NASCAR runs dry sumps.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:43 am 
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What Blinky said is true, but it is not the only reason

The issues Blinky stated can be solved the same way they solve the fuel tank design problems, but will add a bit more weight and design complexity.

A Dry sump also allows lower engine mounting + less weight which i think are the main reasons for going with a dry sump setup.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:19 am 
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Oil pickup problem is easily solved. All that is needed is a flexible pickup so when there is a sideways force the pickup AND the oil will just follow each other around the sump. A lot of smaller aircraft use wet sump with the flex pickup. Commonly refered to as "donkey d_ _ _" I've actually seen it named as such in an older maintenance pub which was good for a laugh.

Main advantage of dry sump as has been stated is easier packaging and the ability to mount the engines lower.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:20 am 
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I actually work for a company that builds/specializes in oil pans and oil tanks. And dry sump is t necessarily always the way to go. And baffling like trap doors keep oil from splashing around. Also oil wouldn't get back on the crank like you might think as I think all wet sump pans have windage trays to keep oil down. We even started putting them in our dry sump pans which engine builders claim to have added up to 25hp. And wet sumps can be lighter because you lose the weight of an oil tank. It's just a matter of power gain over weight gain

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:32 am 
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This is a wet sump pain like one that we build for a Chevy that will be used for an oval. Also, according to engine builders, the main advantage of a dry sump, more than packaging, is power.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:05 am 
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The main aim I think is to reduce air in the oil. And hence use of dry sump in F1. The modern F1 engines use centrifugal air separator and cylindrical oil tank which can be very small and narrow due to presence of separator. The oil output from the separator goes to the oil tank at the top as it still has some minute amount of air, the air which still has some oil goes to air box.
I have a the pictures stored of old oil box designs from V10 era on my old laptop. Will fire it up tonight after work and post the pictures.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:33 am 
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That last bit sounds a lot like the oil system on most turbine engines, if they recycle it a lot of older designs just injected the used oil into the exhaust stream and were refilled before next flight.

I'm impressed at that Chevy sump, it's far more complex than anything I've seen on an aircraft. But then again I haven't touched a piston engines plane since training so I've no idea what they're doing now. It looks more like a tiny fuel tank to me, which is smart. Am I right in assuming the top right is the feed box and the other compartments are deprecated by flapper valves? If so once the oil moves right it has nowhere to go so no surging. Basically like building the oilcan into the sump, eliminates scavenge pumps and lines. Potentially lighter than a dry sump?

The current f1 system sounds almost identical to a turbine aircraft system. The engine I work on currently has 30 odd quarts of oil in the system but only 5 of that are ever in the oil tank (same thing as an oil can, only cast aloy and horizontal) we have 5 scavenge pumps throughout the engine all feeding back to the deoiler (stupid name as it removes air not oil) from the deoiler it feeds back to the tank and the oily air is simply ejected overboard. I find it amazing how so many seperate applications eventually settle on the same solution to a problem in applications that couldn't be further from each other

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Blackhander wrote:
That last bit sounds a lot like the oil system on most turbine engines, if they recycle it a lot of older designs just injected the used oil into the exhaust stream and were refilled before next flight.

I'm impressed at that Chevy sump, it's far more complex than anything I've seen on an aircraft. But then again I haven't touched a piston engines plane since training so I've no idea what they're doing now. It looks more like a tiny fuel tank to me, which is smart. Am I right in assuming the top right is the feed box and the other compartments are deprecated by flapper valves? If so once the oil moves right it has nowhere to go so no surging. Basically like building the oilcan into the sump, eliminates scavenge pumps and lines. Potentially lighter than a dry sump?

The current f1 system sounds almost identical to a turbine aircraft system. The engine I work on currently has 30 odd quarts of oil in the system but only 5 of that are ever in the oil tank (same thing as an oil can, only cast aloy and horizontal) we have 5 scavenge pumps throughout the engine all feeding back to the deoiler (stupid name as it removes air not oil) from the deoiler it feeds back to the tank and the oily air is simply ejected overboard. I find it amazing how so many seperate applications eventually settle on the same solution to a problem in applications that couldn't be further from each other


We actually build oil pans for aircraft a bit here and there. My boss was one of the first to build oil pans specific to application when everyone back in the day used stock steel cores. And yes the top right or right rear corner of that pan is the pick up box. The pan has an external oil pump so that's why you see that tube in the box which is the oil pick up. The doors have holes on the very bottom with hinge on the back side. Cars in on the gas the force of the oil moves backwards opening the hinge. Car brakes the force of the oil moves forward and close the hinge so the oil cannot escape the rear pick up

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:38 am 
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Once fully dressed for installation you can see the drysump tanks located on the front of the engine. It is the tall carbon structure you see in these pics. This location makes for a more reliable installation by reducing the number of external oil lines and makes for quicker engine changes after a failure as there are fewer oil system parts integrated into the car to be replaced.

While reducing windage is an important feature with drysumps the bulk of their power gain is due to the drysump designs ability to run the crankcase under vacuum. This creates less internal drag and helps the rings seal better. For example, I have a 350HP NA 4 Cylinder motor that picks up 8 HP at 14 in/Hg over when the crankcase is vented to atmosphere.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:47 am 
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I must know what your NA 350hp four is... BMW S14?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:30 am 
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Haha sump, that has to be my favourite word ever.

I invented it the other day when trying to make up a new word, but my dad told me it meant something. Hot damn.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:54 pm 
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jono794 wrote:
I must know what your NA 350hp four is... BMW S14?


Yes. Imagine a GruppeA 8 injector slide throttle motor with modern electronics, coatings and oiling systems.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:56 pm 
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ETM3 wrote:
Once fully dressed for installation you can see the drysump tanks located on the front of the engine. It is the tall carbon structure you see in these pics. This location makes for a more reliable installation by reducing the number of external oil lines and makes for quicker engine changes after a failure as there are fewer oil system parts integrated into the car to be replaced.

While reducing windage is an important feature with drysumps the bulk of their power gain is due to the drysump designs ability to run the crankcase under vacuum. This creates less internal drag and helps the rings seal better. For example, I have a 350HP NA 4 Cylinder motor that picks up 8 HP at 14 in/Hg over when the crankcase is vented to atmosphere.

Mercedes
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Ferrari
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Renault
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The top motor is a Toyota.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:32 pm 
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ETM3 wrote:
jono794 wrote:
I must know what your NA 350hp four is... BMW S14?


Yes. Imagine a GruppeA 8 injector slide throttle motor with modern electronics, coatings and oiling systems.


Very nice. It's quite amazing how much extra power can be woken up with modern engine management. The Porsche 962's and Sauber Mercedes' in Historic Group C racing are pushing up to 200hp more than in their heyday thanks to the likes of Motec and others.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:56 am 
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I have seen racecars that use a hollow cast bellhousing as the dry sump tank also. Packaging in modern racecars is amazing

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:12 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:18 am 
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