planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:52 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:26 pm
Posts: 804
Location: Ontario, Canada
http://www.f1zone.net/news/mclaren-soft ... ams/17830/

Pirelli’s heavily degrading tyres were not the only ‘control’ components causing problems for F1 teams in Barcelona this week.

The standard electronics used by every team, and supplied by McLaren subsidiary MES according to a FIA tender contract that was recently extended, was also toying with the patience of engineers up and down pitlane as the ‘middle’ pre-season test in sunny Spain got into gear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:20 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Secret Volcano Lair
"It was like the "Middle Ages" of motor sports".
That would have been a sensational headline. Imagine the Horror.

_________________
Loading Quote.......
--------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Race2win wrote:
"It was like the "Middle Ages" of motor sports".
That would have been a sensational headline. Imagine the Horror.


No more race bans


Bring out the Iron Maiden.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:20 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Secret Volcano Lair
Johnston wrote:
Race2win wrote:
"It was like the "Middle Ages" of motor sports". That would have been a sensational headline. Imagine the Horror.

No more race bans
Bring out the Iron Maiden.

LOL... Or the Guillotine. "Off with thy head"

_________________
Loading Quote.......
--------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:33 pm
Posts: 290
Hardly mclaren's fault. It will be built to a specification provided by the FIA. Any new unit would have to have extensive testing to ensure no problems or hidden options ect and that's comming next year with the new heat recovery regulations for the new engine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
lol of course it is McLaren's fault...its just a different part of McLaren from the formula 1 team. The FIA tells them what they need to include with input from the teams, MES says okay here is how we will do it, then they get the go ahead to build it. Sounds like they need to bring some development parts.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Isn't the Software Micro$haft?

Only the ECU being Macca.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:32 pm
Posts: 614
Inappropriate post removed.

_________________
RSR Racing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am
Posts: 679
Johnston wrote:
Isn't the Software Micro$haft?

Only the ECU being Macca.


The software is Microsoft and is designed around the McLaren hardware. Mclaren builds the hardware with cabling and sensors they approve. Meaning every other team better have the same hardware after the ECU or at the very least, match their tolerances.

This becomes problematic when McLaren tests the software with it's ECU and sensors that only work a certain temperature range and it's all fine. But when another team has an issue that the sensor is getting out of it's range because it's close to the exhaust. who's problem does it belong to? A team can simply put a different sensor to cope with the heat but will it even work with the ECU properly?

This is why I was always against a common ECU. Every team should have their own ECU development. It should go through the FIA tests for approval before hand. Simply put, the FIA should let one or two other ECU manufactures into the paddock and let teams choose which one to use much like engines.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
I don't think they are having individual problems like sensors out of range...it sounds like a more fundamental issue that is cutting off communication from the car.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:09 am
Posts: 23
i knew it! none of the crashes last year were grosjean's fault!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:11 am
Posts: 2
Only way to test it thoroughly is real world testing. Better now than during a race weekend.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:17 pm
Posts: 857
Software is a nightmare in general. New upgrades every day? Double nightmare.

I always thought it was a bad idea to have any one team supply the others; McLaren won by 1 point in the first year of the ECU they supplied -- and Ferrari had both cars blow up in the first 2 races. Surprise, it was an ECU that McLaren were already used to, and that Ferrari's engine was not made to work with.

Also, if you look pre-2008, other teams had more-advanced ECU's with dual LCD displays. The McLaren's still has that same primitive LED readout that looks silly on a car that's supposed to be hi-tech. It looks like equipment from the 70's.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 2741
Location: LONDON...!
These must of been the ones that Martin Brundle made...!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:20 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Secret Volcano Lair
According to the article they are having problems only this year coz MES is upgrading in prepartion for 2014... So software glitches are understandable.

_________________
Loading Quote.......
--------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Cozz wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Isn't the Software Micro$haft?

Only the ECU being Macca.


The software is Microsoft and is designed around the McLaren hardware. Mclaren builds the hardware with cabling and sensors they approve. Meaning every other team better have the same hardware after the ECU or at the very least, match their tolerances.

This becomes problematic when McLaren tests the software with it's ECU and sensors that only work a certain temperature range and it's all fine. But when another team has an issue that the sensor is getting out of it's range because it's close to the exhaust. who's problem does it belong to? A team can simply put a different sensor to cope with the heat but will it even work with the ECU properly?

This is why I was always against a common ECU. Every team should have their own ECU development. It should go through the FIA tests for approval before hand. Simply put, the FIA should let one or two other ECU manufactures into the paddock and let teams choose which one to use much like engines.


The ECU build is nothing to do with the McLaren team and it is designed in conjunction with all the teams. So if a teams sensor is out of range that's their fault for not telling MES they needed the sensor to read in that range.

By the sounds of it it's software and especially the telem. Software seems to be Micro$haft, nothing to do with Macca and the new ECU provides real time telem to the Stewards. Seeing as we didn't hear of any problems in Jerez I wonder if they are trialling the new system in Barca and it is causing the glitches.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am
Posts: 679
Johnston wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Isn't the Software Micro$haft?

Only the ECU being Macca.


The software is Microsoft and is designed around the McLaren hardware. Mclaren builds the hardware with cabling and sensors they approve. Meaning every other team better have the same hardware after the ECU or at the very least, match their tolerances.

This becomes problematic when McLaren tests the software with it's ECU and sensors that only work a certain temperature range and it's all fine. But when another team has an issue that the sensor is getting out of it's range because it's close to the exhaust. who's problem does it belong to? A team can simply put a different sensor to cope with the heat but will it even work with the ECU properly?

This is why I was always against a common ECU. Every team should have their own ECU development. It should go through the FIA tests for approval before hand. Simply put, the FIA should let one or two other ECU manufactures into the paddock and let teams choose which one to use much like engines.


The ECU build is nothing to do with the McLaren team and it is designed in conjunction with all the teams. So if a teams sensor is out of range that's their fault for not telling MES they needed the sensor to read in that range.

By the sounds of it it's software and especially the telem. Software seems to be Micro$haft, nothing to do with Macca and the new ECU provides real time telem to the Stewards. Seeing as we didn't hear of any problems in Jerez I wonder if they are trialling the new system in Barca and it is causing the glitches.


It's all built and designed under the McLaren umbrella. And no there really isn't any other team input for it. It's pretty much the same hardware since it first came out.

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articl ... claren.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
The other teams and the FIA did have input into it.

do you really think the teams would accept a control part such as an ECU they had no input into?

Just because it's designed under the McLaren umbrella doesn't mean the F1 team had enough to do with it to give an advantage. The McLaren Umbrella is a lot of things these days.

A quote from 2006

[quote"MES acts independently of the (F1) team", .[/quote]

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:39 am
Posts: 1
http://www.jobsite.co.uk/cgi-bin/search ... E&x=49&y=7


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:42 pm
Posts: 874
Cozz wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Isn't the Software Micro$haft?

Only the ECU being Macca.


The software is Microsoft and is designed around the McLaren hardware. Mclaren builds the hardware with cabling and sensors they approve. Meaning every other team better have the same hardware after the ECU or at the very least, match their tolerances.

This becomes problematic when McLaren tests the software with it's ECU and sensors that only work a certain temperature range and it's all fine. But when another team has an issue that the sensor is getting out of it's range because it's close to the exhaust. who's problem does it belong to? A team can simply put a different sensor to cope with the heat but will it even work with the ECU properly?

This is why I was always against a common ECU. Every team should have their own ECU development. It should go through the FIA tests for approval before hand. Simply put, the FIA should let one or two other ECU manufactures into the paddock and let teams choose which one to use much like engines.


a team specific ECU would require careful analysis and testing of each and every one by independent FIA engineers to confirm that they were 'in spec' and weren't using any trick software - say, that could allow more off throttle %, etc. The whole idea of a common part was that it uses common software and is under close FIA scrutiny. I think it was a sensible way to go. (Unless, of course, you would like to go back to the Benetton days of 'Oh, yes, we do have launch/traction control/whatever - but it's not switched on!'....?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Losing total communication with the car is not using a sensor out of spec. They are either having a software glitch prevent them from receiving the data or there is a problem with the fibre/antenna system. If MES is going around doing updates or reverting back to 2012 spec, its the former.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5774
Johnston wrote:
Cozz wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Isn't the Software Micro$haft?

Only the ECU being Macca.


The software is Microsoft and is designed around the McLaren hardware. Mclaren builds the hardware with cabling and sensors they approve. Meaning every other team better have the same hardware after the ECU or at the very least, match their tolerances.

This becomes problematic when McLaren tests the software with it's ECU and sensors that only work a certain temperature range and it's all fine. But when another team has an issue that the sensor is getting out of it's range because it's close to the exhaust. who's problem does it belong to? A team can simply put a different sensor to cope with the heat but will it even work with the ECU properly?

This is why I was always against a common ECU. Every team should have their own ECU development. It should go through the FIA tests for approval before hand. Simply put, the FIA should let one or two other ECU manufactures into the paddock and let teams choose which one to use much like engines.


The ECU build is nothing to do with the McLaren team and it is designed in conjunction with all the teams. So if a teams sensor is out of range that's their fault for not telling MES they needed the sensor to read in that range.

By the sounds of it it's software and especially the telem. Software seems to be Micro$haft, nothing to do with Macca and the new ECU provides real time telem to the Stewards. Seeing as we didn't hear of any problems in Jerez I wonder if they are trialling the new system in Barca and it is causing the glitches.

Image

Microsoft provides only platform for the ECU software and they don't even do it directly with McLaren. They do it via EMC corp. All they did was allowing McLaren and EMC to use of MS SQL Server as a base for software called SQL Race and software that analyze the data form the ECU.

_________________
***


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:57 am
Posts: 17
Aren't some teams using 2014 Spec- ECU?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
dizlexik wrote:
Image

Microsoft provides only platform for the ECU software and they don't even do it directly with McLaren. They do it via EMC corp. All they did was allowing McLaren and EMC to use of MS SQL Server as a base for software called SQL Race and software that analyze the data form the ECU.



http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/pre ... FIAPR.aspx

Quote:
Together, MES and Microsoft will streamline the ability of both Formula One pit-side racing teams and their engineering colleagues to access, share and analyze data in real time, to make quicker, better and more-informed decisions. The two companies will continue to extend this technology during the life of the project. This will be achieved by integrating the latest high-performance computing using Microsoft® Windows Vista™, Microsoft SQL Server™ 2005, the 2007 Microsoft Office system, and other Microsoft software platforms and products as appropriate.

sounds a bit more than providing a base.

I remember one of the teams complaining that they were forced to run Microsoft on all their computers because of the way it all works. All the banks for Telem etc are on Microsoft.

http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/microsoft-at ... 115397.htm

Quote:
In case you haven't heard, Microsoft will supply software for the standardized Engine Control Unit in Formula 1, to be used in all Formula 1 cars for the 2008 season. A most complex piece of code, controlling every aspect of the car's engine behavior including the sequence and timing of the spark plugs, getting information from hundreds of sensors all over the car to decide the engine's running speed, etc., Microsoft should have been able to give it to Formula 1 for free.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5774
Johnston wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Image

Microsoft provides only platform for the ECU software and they don't even do it directly with McLaren. They do it via EMC corp. All they did was allowing McLaren and EMC to use of MS SQL Server as a base for software called SQL Race and software that analyze the data form the ECU.



http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/pre ... FIAPR.aspx

Quote:
Together, MES and Microsoft will streamline the ability of both Formula One pit-side racing teams and their engineering colleagues to access, share and analyze data in real time, to make quicker, better and more-informed decisions. The two companies will continue to extend this technology during the life of the project. This will be achieved by integrating the latest high-performance computing using Microsoft® Windows Vista™, Microsoft SQL Server™ 2005, the 2007 Microsoft Office system, and other Microsoft software platforms and products as appropriate.

sounds a bit more than providing a base.

I remember one of the teams complaining that they were forced to run Microsoft on all their computers because of the way it all works. All the banks for Telem etc are on Microsoft.

http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/microsoft-at ... 115397.htm

Quote:
In case you haven't heard, Microsoft will supply software for the standardized Engine Control Unit in Formula 1, to be used in all Formula 1 cars for the 2008 season. A most complex piece of code, controlling every aspect of the car's engine behavior including the sequence and timing of the spark plugs, getting information from hundreds of sensors all over the car to decide the engine's running speed, etc., Microsoft should have been able to give it to Formula 1 for free.

You don't understand. Microsoft did not write a single piece of code specifically for ECU. It's like using Excel. When things don't work in your spreadsheet and you blame Microsoft. You should rather look at your formulas and fix them rather than passing blame on Excel itself. Excel is mere tool. All the software provided by MS are just general use tools that McLaren use as a base for the ECU. I had an internship at bank (ING) and they used the some of tools that you listed. IMHO IBM tools are better, but MS are also quite robust.

And don't link to any silly blogs as a proof of anything where even site doesn't take responsibility for content.

_________________
***


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
From everything I have read the whole system is based on Windows. Everything on the Pit wall is based on Microsoft products as FIA official supplier.

So depending on what needs updated it might not be at the MES but the Microsoft end who are working with MES. So without knowing what exactly is failing you cannot simply point the finger at Macca.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5774
Johnston wrote:
From everything I have read the whole system is based on Windows. Everything on the Pit wall is based on Microsoft products as FIA official supplier.

So depending on what needs updated it might not be at the MES but the Microsoft end who are working with MES. So without knowing what exactly is failing you cannot simply point the finger at Macca.

So you recklessly point the finger at others, while keeping McLaren intact?

_________________
***


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
dizlexik wrote:
Johnston wrote:
From everything I have read the whole system is based on Windows. Everything on the Pit wall is based on Microsoft products as FIA official supplier.

So depending on what needs updated it might not be at the MES but the Microsoft end who are working with MES. So without knowing what exactly is failing you cannot simply point the finger at Macca.

So you recklessly point the finger at others, while keeping McLaren intact?



I haven't pointed the finger at anyone. Read what I have said. without knowing the full details you cannot simply point the finger at macca.

There are two companies involved with the data/ecu. We do not know which is to blame so we cannot say which to point the finger at.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5774
Johnston wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Johnston wrote:
From everything I have read the whole system is based on Windows. Everything on the Pit wall is based on Microsoft products as FIA official supplier.

So depending on what needs updated it might not be at the MES but the Microsoft end who are working with MES. So without knowing what exactly is failing you cannot simply point the finger at Macca.

So you recklessly point the finger at others, while keeping McLaren intact?



I haven't pointed the finger at anyone. Read what I have said. without knowing the full details you cannot simply point the finger at macca.

There are two companies involved with the data/ecu. We do not know which is to blame so we cannot say which to point the finger at.

You did.
Quote:
By the sounds of it it's software and especially the telem. Software seems to be Micro$haft, nothing to do with Macca and the new ECU provides real time telem to the Stewards. Seeing as we didn't hear of any problems in Jerez I wonder if they are trialling the new system in Barca and it is causing the glitches.

_________________
***


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
See the 'Seems to be'? And at no point did I definitively blame Micro$haft.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buck_stradler, Ja'a, Lord Crc, minchy and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group