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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:06 am 
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I had to chuckle when I saw Hamilton was quick to say that Alonso and Vettel are wrong, and that he will not win any races this year. He wants everyone to know his car is horrible. Therefore, I can only assume if he wins a race or two his legend grows. Alonso said a lot of similar things last year.

It is not just the two of them... In watching F1 for many moons, these drivers have a bit of cowboy in them and all want to build their legend....


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:03 am 
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Its all down to how you do Vs your team mate. So 2012 for the first 3/4 Alonso was very impressive.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:26 am 
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errrr....worst car ever?

Life L190?

EuroBrun ER188?

I suggest that you exaggerate..

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:31 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
I had to chuckle when I saw Hamilton was quick to say that Alonso and Vettel are wrong, and that he will not win any races this year. He wants everyone to know his car is horrible. Therefore, I can only assume if he wins a race or two his legend grows. Alonso said a lot of similar things last year.

It is not just the two of them... In watching F1 for many moons, these drivers have a bit of cowboy in them and all want to build their legend....


Agree with this 100%. Quite annoying to see drivers talk down their car so much (quite the compliment to their team), simply so that fans can think the world of them when they bring in a result that the car is actually capable of. I'd much prefer see a drive be positive about their chances and then be proven wrong when it comes time to race, rather than the opposite.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:54 am 
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Misinformed wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
I had to chuckle when I saw Hamilton was quick to say that Alonso and Vettel are wrong, and that he will not win any races this year. He wants everyone to know his car is horrible. Therefore, I can only assume if he wins a race or two his legend grows. Alonso said a lot of similar things last year.

It is not just the two of them... In watching F1 for many moons, these drivers have a bit of cowboy in them and all want to build their legend....


Agree with this 100%. Quite annoying to see drivers talk down their car so much (quite the compliment to their team), simply so that fans can think the world of them when they bring in a result that the car is actually capable of. I'd much prefer see a drive be positive about their chances and then be proven wrong when it comes time to race, rather than the opposite.

i don't think they are being negative,they are just being realistic...take the Hamilton statement for instance,he also went on to say that the car has already been an improvement since the first time he drove it and he keeps talking of how dedicated the guys are back in the factory....i hardly doubt they'd be mad at him for saying something that they all say too....would seem stupid if Alonso comes out and says "my car is world beater" only for it not to be world beater,don't you think?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:47 am 
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Alonso and Massa have both said that this year's car is miles ahead of the 2012 challenger. Alonso also said back in 2012 that the car was crap. So no, your theory doesn't hold water.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:39 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Alonso and Massa have both said that this year's car is miles ahead of the 2012 challenger. Alonso also said back in 2012 that the car was crap. So no, your theory doesn't hold water.


So Have Button and Perez as well as Webber and Vettel


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:56 am 
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What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

On a different note, everyone wants to build their own reputation. It not just enhances public image but also has a fairly direct effect on earnings.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:50 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:53 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:29 am 
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froze wrote:
Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


I agree to every word of this. :thumbup:
Whenever a driver puts a car to places it doesn't belong, it's all down to strategy, luck, and taking advantage of opportunities.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:33 am 
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Hamilton's move to Mercedes. It's like watching a dog stick his face in a fan.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:59 am 
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froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think.

You know, people keep going on about how you can't outdrive the car and while they are technically right, I think it's obvious what is meant by that statement. It means that a driver got much closer to the limit than you could reasonably expect, even of a top driver.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:19 am 
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froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


I shouldn't have to pay for your lack of communication skills but let me rephrase it in a way you can understand. "outdoing the machinery" is a phrase that is used as a more polite version of "x driver can drive at 100% and others are unable to do that."

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:30 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


I shouldn't have to pay for your lack of communication skills but let me rephrase it in a way you can understand. "outdoing the machinery" is a phrase that is used as a more polite version of "x driver can drive at 100% and others are incapable of doing that."

Really? Let's see...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outdo
Quote:
outdo [ˌaʊtˈduː]
vb -does, -doing, -did, -done
(tr) to surpass or exceed in performance or execution

So in fact you first said that Alonso could 'surpass or exceed' the limits of his machinery but now you're saying it wasn't at all what you meant and it's actually me who 'lacks in communication skills'?
Although, I am not a native english speaker and hence I probably make a lot of grammatical errors when I write here, but I at least try to call the spade a spade and also expect that from others.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:41 am 
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Well, everybody's got a valid point from one point of view to another, but let's try to open up the thread gap, so we can chip in all our ideas.

What strikes me as odd is that I've never seen a midfield or rear-pack team to clobber their car pre-season. The guys in front can afford it - if they make good, it's called sandbagging. If they fail, it was the honest truth.

But the outsiders (even Marussia) always have to go with the" we are very confident we made progress, we are on the right track and we're gonna break the world into 2 - we hope" because otherwise the sponsors will drop them like a hot potato...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:23 pm 
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froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


Side note: Hate to say it but I think Massa not only narrowed the gap to Alonso, but exceeded Alonso. The only reason Alonso was ahead at the end of those last races is because the team made sure of it. There was a championship on hand, it's understood.

I don't know how it was possible. I think Alonso was not able to extract from the new chassis setup/updated parts like Massa did. Since the updates came out at around Japan 'till the end of the year, Massa scored 71 points averaging in 4th place overall between 6 races.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:35 pm 
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It's strange that the OP is berating Hamilton for playing down the performance of the Mercedes without actually knowing how fast it is. What seems more likely is that he's telling the truth and rationalising high expectations fuelled by Alonso and Vettel (note that the OP conveniently ignores the fact that Vettel has been bigging up Mercedes, which is basically the other side of the same coin).


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:38 pm 
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froze wrote:
Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


Well said :thumbup: It's important to ridicule this myth each and every time it appears, it's a beloved claim of certain drivers fans that their driving God gets 110% out of a race car or can put it places the car can't physically manage, which of course is bollocks.

HulkStrong wrote:
Hamilton's move to Mercedes. It's like watching a dog stick his face in a fan.


:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:38 pm 
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mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


And I assume you know much better?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


And I assume you know much better?


Without getting into a massive debate, how about we start by you answering the following question: do you believe Alonso with regards to the comments he made that I've posted above?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:35 pm 
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mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


And I assume you know much better?


I saw Massa doing great in that car at years end so it could not have been that bad. Massa was super fast in Austin and Brazil. In fact I think Massa could have had a fight for the win in Austin if not for 5 gridder


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:37 pm 
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My point in all this is that drivers in general want to build their reputations and it is funny sometimes how they do it... Everyone seems to be running to the aid of their favorite driver and that was not the point


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:44 pm 
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With regards to playing down the performance of the car, it is the same story with everyone. But for Alonso last year it was clearly visible towards the end that he wasnt happy with the car. It lacked speed. So what if in race trim he was Upto speed. Qualifying is also equally important. That is where he lost out the most. If he was really up to speed with Mclaren and RBR he wouldnt have just won 3 races that too only in the 1st half of the season

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:45 pm 
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mccormickja wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


And I assume you know much better?


Without getting into a massive debate, how about we start by you answering the following question: do you believe Alonso with regards to the comments he made that I've posted above?


Can I have a link regarding his comments on tuesday evening so I can see what he actually said?

The comments after Brazil are all relative. Compared to his championship competitors his car was much slower in the context of F1 at the sharp end. If your trying to win races being 2 tenths a lap of the pace is pretty damn big.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:56 pm 
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beyamei wrote:
froze wrote:
Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


I agree to every word of this. :thumbup:
Whenever a driver puts a car to places it doesn't belong, it's all down to strategy, luck, and taking advantage of opportunities.

well since we are going to get pedantic,you can't put a car where it doesn't belong,you can put a car in a position higher than it was projected to belong but if a driver wins a race it's because of the things you listed and the driver extracting all he can from the car.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:59 pm 
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froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.


I shouldn't have to pay for your lack of communication skills but let me rephrase it in a way you can understand. "outdoing the machinery" is a phrase that is used as a more polite version of "x driver can drive at 100% and others are incapable of doing that."

Really? Let's see...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outdo
Quote:
outdo [ˌaʊtˈduː]
vb -does, -doing, -did, -done
(tr) to surpass or exceed in performance or execution

So in fact you first said that Alonso could 'surpass or exceed' the limits of his machinery but now you're saying it wasn't at all what you meant and it's actually me who 'lacks in communication skills'?
Although, I am not a native english speaker and hence I probably make a lot of grammatical errors when I write here, but I at least try to call the spade a spade and also expect that from others.

why do people always do this for the sake of winning argument? you very well know what a fan means when he/she says a driver is out doing the car.....i maybe the only one but whenever i hear that,i don't take it literally,it's a phrase used when a driver is performing more in a car than he was expected to perform.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:01 pm 
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So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:05 pm 
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HulkStrong wrote:
Hamilton's move to Mercedes. It's like watching a dog stick his face in a fan.


They don't look that bad but it seems "the paddock" thinks that currently it's 1. Red Bull 2. Lotus and 3. Everyone else quite close behind.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?

i don't know am not in people's head,am just saying whenever that phrase is used in a motorsport forum,it's usually refering to performing better than expected as opposed to really "out driving" the car....i just think people that want to pick an argument with that are just people who have seen a wrong phrase used and think it's open season to win an argument,just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?

Do you call a Dyson a hoover? It's not, but everybody knows what you mean.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
With regards to playing down the performance of the car, it is the same story with everyone. But for Alonso last year it was clearly visible towards the end that he wasnt happy with the car. It lacked speed. So what if in race trim he was Upto speed. Qualifying is also equally important. That is where he lost out the most. If he was really up to speed with Mclaren and RBR he wouldnt have just won 3 races that too only in the 1st half of the season


I call BS on this one.

Although the car lacked in quali, the launches Alonso got off the line played a key part in regaining those lost places from quali. Also taking into account the DNF's ahead in most of the races, it was easy for him to regain the lost quali positions. Also, he was able to jump others in the pitstop phases with the brilliant teamwork by the ferrari pit crew and brilliant strategies, so I don't know why people make it sound as if it's a miracle that alonso was able to rack up so many points.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?


your find that most people say things that are not meant to be taken literally every 10 minutes. I think when somebody says out performing the car everyone knows they mean that the driver is putting his car ahead of other cars that have the potential to go quicker.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?


your find that most people say things that are not meant to be taken literally every 10 minutes. I think when somebody says out performing the car everyone knows they mean that the driver is putting his car ahead of other cars that have the potential to go quicker.

I know what you mean, but it shouldn't be confused with that common misconception which viariani already explained. Either way, it's not really my problem if people don't say what they mean or mean what they say. All I can do is assume that they do.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:00 pm 
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mccormickja wrote:
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Well, Hulkenberg was certainly faster than both Ferraris.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:04 pm 
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bighobbo10 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


Well, Hulkenberg was certainly faster than both Ferraris.

But that's because Hulkenberg was outdoing his machinery by extracting approx 107% out of the car. Look at where Di Resta was, that's where the real performance of Force India was at.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:39 pm 
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james10171 wrote:
Race2win wrote:
With regards to playing down the performance of the car, it is the same story with everyone. But for Alonso last year it was clearly visible towards the end that he wasnt happy with the car. It lacked speed. So what if in race trim he was Upto speed. Qualifying is also equally important. That is where he lost out the most. If he was really up to speed with Mclaren and RBR he wouldnt have just won 3 races that too only in the 1st half of the season


I call BS on this one.

Although the car lacked in quali, the launches Alonso got off the line played a key part in regaining those lost places from quali. Also taking into account the DNF's ahead in most of the races, it was easy for him to regain the lost quali positions. Also, he was able to jump others in the pitstop phases with the brilliant teamwork by the ferrari pit crew and brilliant strategies, so I don't know why people make it sound as if it's a miracle that alonso was able to rack up so many points.


This is true but none of those things have anything to do with the pace of the car itself which is what we were discussing. Alonso did not say the car was poor of the line and the pitstop strategies were bad, he said the car was to slow.


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