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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:41 pm 
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froze wrote:
bighobbo10 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Alonso is by far the biggest culprit for this. He's been doing it all his career.

Did you see his comments on Tuesday evening after the first day in Barcelona? He basically said that Ferrari ended last season on the same level as Force India and behind Lotus and Sauber.

Add those comments to his "a car-ah MACH-ah slower than de others" after Brazil...

The guy is full of fairy cakes.


Well, Hulkenberg was certainly faster than both Ferraris.

But that's because Hulkenberg was outdoing his machinery by extracting approx 107% out of the car. Look at where Di Resta was, that's where the real performance of Force India was at.


Um sorry but did you not say this earlier in the thread...

"Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated."

So can you get more than 100% out of the car or not?

Also if this is your view of Brazil I assume you agree that in Australlia Ferrari's true pace was being shown by Massa and not Alonso?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:04 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
I had to chuckle when I saw Hamilton was quick to say that Alonso and Vettel are wrong, and that he will not win any races this year. He wants everyone to know his car is horrible. Therefore, I can only assume if he wins a race or two his legend grows. Alonso said a lot of similar things last year.

It is not just the two of them... In watching F1 for many moons, these drivers have a bit of cowboy in them and all want to build their legend....


I've got to say it bluntly, your head resides in a universe strange to me. If anybody allows any driver's comments to alter the rotation of the planets, that's their problem, because the one and only thing that is relevant is what happens on the track. A driver can talk himself down, talk himself sideways, talk himself into being a combination of Superman and Speedy Gonzales, it's all hot air because once on the track, BS walks and results talk. Legacies are created not in front of the microphone, but behind the wheel.

Does anybody remember what Button was saying at the start of the 2009 season? Probably none of us can immediately recall it, we are lucky if we remember anything, because his record on track and winning the WDC overshadowed all of that.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
froze wrote:
bighobbo10 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Alonso is by far the biggest culprit for this. He's been doing it all his career.

Did you see his comments on Tuesday evening after the first day in Barcelona? He basically said that Ferrari ended last season on the same level as Force India and behind Lotus and Sauber.

Add those comments to his "a car-ah MACH-ah slower than de others" after Brazil...

The guy is full of fairy cakes.


Well, Hulkenberg was certainly faster than both Ferraris.

But that's because Hulkenberg was outdoing his machinery by extracting approx 107% out of the car. Look at where Di Resta was, that's where the real performance of Force India was at.


Um sorry but did you not say this earlier in the thread...

"Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated."

So can you get more than 100% out of the car or not?

Also if this is your view of Brazil I assume you agree that in Australlia Ferrari's true pace was being shown by Massa and not Alonso?

You don't say?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:48 pm 
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@James10171: I never said it was a miracle. He just made the most out of the flawless pitstops, strategies, and others mistakes. Also the excellent starts. But that doesnt take away the fact that his car was slow in quali which was a disadvantage. I wouldnt even say that he outdrove the car because that is not possible.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:57 pm 
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What intrigues me is, how does one extract more than 100% out of the car?? Is that even possible??
Well, unless one adds a Flintstone Style propulsion in addition to the usual, then you can say they are outdoing their car.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:09 pm 
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mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


Pretty much this, I remember loling at him for being a drama queen last season at the Abu Dhabi podium ceremonies.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:29 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?

Do you call a Dyson a hoover? It's not, but everybody knows what you mean.

Contrary to the case we're discussing then. :-P

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:27 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
froze wrote:
bighobbo10 wrote:
mccormickja wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


Well, Hulkenberg was certainly faster than both Ferraris.

But that's because Hulkenberg was outdoing his machinery by extracting approx 107% out of the car. Look at where Di Resta was, that's where the real performance of Force India was at.


Um sorry but did you not say this earlier in the thread...

"Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated."

So can you get more than 100% out of the car or not?

Also if this is your view of Brazil I assume you agree that in Australlia Ferrari's true pace was being shown by Massa and not Alonso?


Massa could have won that race had he not sacrificed himself for Alonso. He was comfortably quicker.

Besides, that race was under exceptional circumstances. Ferrari were miles ahead of Force India all season and certainly quicker than Sauber and Lotus. Stop talking bollocks, Teflonso.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:58 am 
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The F1 season must be about to start as I see Hackkattack is back & doing what he does best, stirring the pot :D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:18 am 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?

Do you call a Dyson a hoover? It's not, but everybody knows what you mean.


No, it's a Dyson. We have a Dyson, it's called the Dyson in our house??

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:36 am 
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viariani wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
Covalent wrote:
So why say "outdo their machinery" if they really mean "perform better than expected"?

Do you call a Dyson a hoover? It's not, but everybody knows what you mean.


No, it's a Dyson. We have a Dyson, it's called the Dyson in our house??

Fair do's.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:02 am 
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Nice bait hakka :)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:08 am 
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when people say they are out performing their car it isn't to be taken literally obviously, stop taking issue with it as its just a phrase... you know when some one is on a 'hot lap' their car is not literally on fire and when a commentator says "so and so is flying on this lap" they are not literally flying.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:28 am 
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"Outperforming the car", "putting that car in places it doesn't belong", "giving 110%", etc...

Two things:

1: If you think these things are objectively possible, you're wrong.

2. If you think that when fans/commentators/pundits/drivers utter these extremely frequently used terms they are actually implying that the laws of physics are being suspended, then you're even more wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:22 am 
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froze wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
What Hamilton is saying is in line with what is expected of Mercedes. What Alonso said last year could be verified not just by Massa but Alonso's own car. The truth is just hard to take for some people - that they are outdoing their machinery.

Nobody can really outdo their machinery. A car only goes so far it can go. The fact that Massa's relative gap to Alonso narrowed later in the season suggests that Massa wasn't on top of his game earlier in the season and wasn't able to extract 100% from the car. It's not like Alonso was able to extract 120% against Massa's 100% as some people seem to think. Still, Alonso drove brilliantly, but F1 car is not like a human body that can potentially be pushed further by determination. It's a machine that has its theoretical limits within it can be operated.

From the book "Forza Minardi", by Simon Vigar, quoting Mark Hughes:
"I particularly recall bumping into Gustav Brunner [Minardi technical director] shortly after qualifying. I commented that he looked a bit shell-shocked. 'Yes, I know the aero figures of this car, I know the power figures, the torque and power curves. But I don't know how those figures could possibly translate into the lap time that car has just done. I can only believe that it must be the driver - he must be doing things beyond what nearly all the other drivers are doing'".

In my opinion, that is what people refer to when they say that a driver is outdriving his machine. And since it comes from an F1 technical expert, I would give him some credit as to how possible or accurate that type of stetement is. :)


Edit: it is sad but predictable that some people used this thread to turn it into an Alonso bashing one, even if it was started because of a Hamilton comment. A comment which, by the way, was perfectly normal and polite.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:08 am 
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This is NOT a bashing thread. That may have been the OP's intent, but enough of you posted maturely to save it from locking. Please, keep it civil and we will leave it open.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:26 am 
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Alonso said in that he had the best car in Monza. Most of his detractors ignored this statement.

I think he is just realistic.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:14 am 
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<Manager > Hows the car?
<Driver> Perfect!

<Manager> Well our simulation shows you could be .6 quicker, you are not doing your job


Next time

<Manager > Hows the car?
<Driver> We are not there yet, improving, I'm getting all I can out of it

<Manager> Well our simulation shows you could be .6 quicker, I'll get on to the design staff

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:17 pm 
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It's not that drivers want to make you think they have the worst car ever IMO. I think it'd be more correct to say that top drivers criticize their cars more often than other drivers. I actually can see the logic here and find it reasonable because:

1. Top drivers have earned the right and confidence to voice their opinions. Alonso can call Ferrari’s performance disappointing but Narain cannot without getting the boot.
2. Top drivers have higher expectations than other drivers. Alonso wants to win races and the title. Narain prays to finish one race on the same lap.
3. Top drivers usually drive top cars and you expect more from those. Alonso expects a lot from Ferrari. You don't expect much from Marussia OTOH.

In this context there's nothing wrong with a little critique, even when it's public (though I don't particularly agree with it) because after all it’s more constructive.

Strangely however, only the opposite applies to the teams in the sense that bottom teams criticize their drivers more often than other teams. Here I can’t see the logic because you’d think:

1. Top teams have earned the right and confidence to voice their opinions. Ferrari can call Alonso disappointing but HRT cannot without risking sponsorship.
2. Top teams have higher expectations than other teams. Ferrari wants to win races and the title. HRT prays to finish one race on the same lap (well, used to).
3. Top teams usually employ top drivers and you expect more from them. Ferrari expects a lot from Alonso. You don't expect much from Narain OTOH.

Honestly I don’t get it. If drivers can say stuff like:

- I was doing my best but the car wasn’t fast enough
- I was doing my best but the team got the strategy wrong
- I was doing my best but the crew made a costly mistake
- I was doing my best but the other cars are better than ours
- I was doing my best but the car is unreliable
- I am doing my best but the car is even slower than last year, etc.

Why don’t we hear the teams say more often stuff like:

- We were doing our best but the driver wasn’t fast enough
- We were doing our best but the driver got the strategy wrong
- We were doing our best but the driver made a costly mistake
- We were doing our best but the other drivers are better than ours
- We are doing our best but the driver is unreliable
- We were doing our best but the driver is even slower than last year, etc.

It should be either both or none IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:56 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
1. Top drivers have earned the right and confidence to voice their opinions. Alonso can call Ferrari’s performance disappointing but Narain cannot without getting the boot.
2. Top drivers have higher expectations than other drivers. Alonso wants to win races and the title. Narain prays to finish one race on the same lap.
3. Top drivers usually drive top cars and you expect more from those. Alonso expects a lot from Ferrari. You don't expect much from Marussia OTOH.

I don't agree with this. Every driver wants to win. Every driver who's worked their way to Formula 1 is a professional and has to have had at least some success in the lower categories. I think guys like Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso etc. are a bit spoiled since they've never had to worry if they have enough money for a seat or fear that they'd lose their seats in F1. In the world of backmarkers, you may never know if you can get another seat after your current contract expires, but you still have to give your 100% even when the results are out of top 10. I think it takes guts to be able to push 100% every weekend, every season, knowing that the car is not even competitive and at the same time watch some of the top guys have a long face for not having an extra tenth. Those back of the grid guys too have more than a right to voice their opinions especially if they know they've given their all. But of course it would be bad for the team spirit and bad publicity for a developing team if their driver didn't believe in the team and would badmouth the car.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:03 pm 
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froze wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
1. Top drivers have earned the right and confidence to voice their opinions. Alonso can call Ferrari’s performance disappointing but Narain cannot without getting the boot.
2. Top drivers have higher expectations than other drivers. Alonso wants to win races and the title. Narain prays to finish one race on the same lap.
3. Top drivers usually drive top cars and you expect more from those. Alonso expects a lot from Ferrari. You don't expect much from Marussia OTOH.

I don't agree with this. Every driver wants to win. Every driver who's worked their way to Formula 1 is a professional and has to have had at least some success in the lower categories. I think guys like Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso etc. are a bit spoiled since they've never had to worry if they have enough money for a seat or fear that they'd lose their seats in F1. In the world of backmarkers, you may never know if you can get another seat after your current contract expires, but you still have to give your 100% even when the results are out of top 10. I think it takes guts to be able to push 100% every weekend, every season, knowing that the car is not even competitive and at the same time watch some of the top guys have a long face for not having an extra tenth. Those back of the grid guys too have more than a right to voice their opinions especially if they know they've given their all. But of course it would be bad for the team spirit and bad publicity for a developing team if their driver didn't believe in the team and would badmouth the car.


I think its simpler than that. The top guys just get more air time so we here them complaining more.


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