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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Larson's car was getting hit at some points like a third of the way across the track. The wall doesn't hang out far enough for that - remember the track is falling away from it, not flat.

The start/finish flag gantry hangs out further than the fence, and that only covers MAYBE a car's width of the track.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:15 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Larson's car was getting hit at some points like a third of the way across the track. The wall doesn't hang out far enough for that - remember the track is falling away from it, not flat.

The start/finish flag gantry hangs out further than the fence, and that only covers MAYBE a car's width of the track.

Image


So?

He had all his wheels at the point of impact against the catch fence pole. He wasn't in the middle of the track when those wheels came off of the car.He was in the fence in a major way.

Here. When a car is all the way up on the fence as Larson's was, on top of the Safer barrier, then tell me how a wheel will fly up and over that overhang and into the crowd at the point where it landed. It easily covers a car underneath it, especially one on its side like Larson's was.

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Last edited by hairy_scotsman on Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:16 pm 
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Ashley, look at that last picture. The wheel on TOP, the passenger side, is the one in the stands. As you can see in the first photo but wheels are still attached to the car.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:20 pm 
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And that means a wheel couldn't have bounced down and out towards the track and then up and over?
Image

The left hand wheel is riding the outside of the barrier.

The next photo it's gone. Due to the previous impacts that wheel could have gone before the car went into the fence.

there are lots of possibilities until the investigators go through the footage we don't know.

Internet analyses. Remember Brazil ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
And that means a wheel couldn't have bounced down and out towards the track and then up and over?
Image

The left hand wheel is riding the outside of the barrier.

The next photo it's gone. Due to the previous impacts that wheel could have gone before the car went into the fence.

there are lots of possibilities until the investigators go through the footage we don't know.

Internet analyses. Remember Brazil ;)

Ha. LOL. Why not look at what we can SEE in multiple videos and photos from multiple angles and distances, which is a wheel flying through the air on the other side of the fence, below the top of it, immediately after impact?

There's no wheel doing any of what you describe in any photo or video out there.

The fence failed, plain and simple.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:30 pm 
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hairy_scotsman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Larson's car was getting hit at some points like a third of the way across the track. The wall doesn't hang out far enough for that - remember the track is falling away from it, not flat.

The start/finish flag gantry hangs out further than the fence, and that only covers MAYBE a car's width of the track.

Image


So?

He had all his wheels at the point of impact against the catch fence pole. He wasn't in the middle of the track when those wheels came off of the car.He was in the fence in a major way.

Here. When a car is all the way up on the fence as Larson's was, on top of the Safer barrier, then tell me how a wheel will fly up and over that overhang. It easily covers a car underneath it, especially one on its side like Larson's was.

Image


Are you Gus really arguing how the wheel got over the fence? Lol. Did it not just get ripped off the car when it was in the fence and go through the gaping hole of which the motor also went though? I mean, there was enough fence missing for nearly a whole car to go trough.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:32 pm 
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daytona81 wrote:
hairy_scotsman wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Larson's car was getting hit at some points like a third of the way across the track. The wall doesn't hang out far enough for that - remember the track is falling away from it, not flat.

The start/finish flag gantry hangs out further than the fence, and that only covers MAYBE a car's width of the track.

Image


So?

He had all his wheels at the point of impact against the catch fence pole. He wasn't in the middle of the track when those wheels came off of the car.He was in the fence in a major way.

Here. When a car is all the way up on the fence as Larson's was, on top of the Safer barrier, then tell me how a wheel will fly up and over that overhang. It easily covers a car underneath it, especially one on its side like Larson's was.

Image


Are you Gus really arguing how the wheel got over the fence? Lol. Did it not just get ripped off the car when it was in the fence and go through the gaping hole of which the motor also went though? I mean, there was enough fence missing for nearly a whole car to go trough.


Exactly.

Damn.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:38 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Look at your last photo...how did THAT wheel end up 20 rows into the seats? There were 2 wheels involved.


Do you think objects coming of a car doing 160+- mph are just going to sit and hangout where they come off? Is it not possible the forces places the object away from the location is was ripped away?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Problem solved. Slow motion video show the tire ripped away inside the fence flying up the stands. If you disagree with the video you might as well say the sun does not rise in the east and set in the west. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZAufR1Xv3A&sns=em

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Yeah, sure, but its not sailing that far away if its first been tangled in chain link fence and wire. If the big round black object that flies through the air near the top of the fence went through the fence, why isnt the top of the fence damaged? It was fine. That's all I'm sayinnnnnn.


The fence's job is to stop a car from going through it, not stop every piece of that car from ending up on the other side. The design and build of the car does more to minimize the chance of parts ending up in the stands than the fence does.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:48 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Internet analyses. Remember Brazil ;)

Clearly BK was trying to make a pass under a local yellow x(

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:54 pm 
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hairy_scotsman wrote:
Ha. LOL. Why not look at what we can SEE in multiple videos and photos from multiple angles and distances, which is a wheel flying through the air on the other side of the fence, below the top of it, immediately after impact?

There's no wheel doing any of what you describe in any photo or video out there.

The fence failed, plain and simple.


In the videos we see a wheel in the air seeing how the footage is from a distance I can't honestly say if it's behind or infront of the fence, all I know is in one seen something that looks like a wheel is higher than the fence hence why I said thats one for the investigators we are looking a compressed internet footage which as we know isn't going to do great at picking up a chain link fence and a dark object to show which is in front of which.

Every news report I have watched has said the wheel went OVER the fence. They tend to have people there watching the races seeing it in real time and talk to witnesses..

Watch it here at about 40secs. Looks to me like a wheel is going over after the big shunt on the fencing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fQxnvFCu8M

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:04 pm 
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No matter how wheel flew into grandstands, the protection around track must be improved. No one can say that fence worked, because it didn't. Wheel came through it or fence was too low or something else.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
hairy_scotsman wrote:
Ha. LOL. Why not look at what we can SEE in multiple videos and photos from multiple angles and distances, which is a wheel flying through the air on the other side of the fence, below the top of it, immediately after impact?

There's no wheel doing any of what you describe in any photo or video out there.

The fence failed, plain and simple.


In the videos we see a wheel in the air seeing how the footage is from a distance I can't honestly say if it's behind or infront of the fence, all I know is in one seen something that looks like a wheel is higher than the fence hence why I said thats one for the investigators we are looking a compressed internet footage which as we know isn't going to do great at picking up a chain link fence and a dark object to show which is in front of which.

Every news report I have watched has said the wheel went OVER the fence. They tend to have people there watching the races seeing it in real time and talk to witnesses..

Watch it here at about 40secs. Looks to me like a wheel is going over after the big shunt on the fencing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fQxnvFCu8M

Wow. Denial is a helluva drug.

We've shown you multiple good images and videos that clearly show the fence between the wheel and the camera. You don't want to see that, but it's there.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Ok, here is the deal. The tire that went into the stands was the passenger side tire from Larson's car. There is just no way it went OVER the fence. Once the car compromised the fence, the tire was sheared off and continued on its upward trajectory from the car as the car was "stopped" by the fence post which is what ripped the tire off. As we all know, its the same as being in a wreck in which you dont have your seatbelt on. If something isnt attached (as the wheel assembly was tore from the vehicle before it came to a complete stop) it will continue moving until met with an equal opposing force.

In the first still, the car is just about to come into contact with the fence for the first time. The black mark on the SAFER barrier is from Larson's front driver side tire which is right at :23 seconds in the slow motion video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZAufR1Xv3A&sns=em

Image

The second still, the car has torn through the fencing and is beginning its spin back towards the infield. As you can see, there is fence cabling in between the camera and tire meaning the tire is BEHIND the fence.

Image

If you pause the video at :26 seconds you will see the tire BEHIND the fence just about the smoke/debris cloud. If you go to :28 seconds it appears that the tire "clears" or goes above the fencing. This is an optical trick basically. It is impossible for the tire to come back over the fence from the track side of it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Still have a doubt? No reasonable person will after viewing this HD, slow motion fan video from the opposite angle. The wheel never even gets as high as the top of the fence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF0itzvH0I

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:32 am 
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hairy_scotsman wrote:
Still have a doubt? No reasonable person will after viewing this HD, slow motion fan video from the opposite angle. The wheel never even gets as high as the top of the fence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzF0itzvH0I

It's also pretty clear from this video that the fence was penetrated in a section containing an access gate of some sort. Maybe a weak point?

However, aside from this speculation. That's the clearest, scariest footage I've seen of the incident. It's a stark reminder of how remarkable it is we're talking about injuries rather than deaths.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:25 am 
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Yep, it's a weak point in a really crazy place.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:47 am 
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bballr4567 wrote:
Ok, here is the deal. The tire that went into the stands was the passenger side tire from Larson's car. There is just no way it went OVER the fence. Once the car compromised the fence, the tire was sheared off and continued on its upward trajectory from the car as the car was "stopped" by the fence post which is what ripped the tire off. As we all know, its the same as being in a wreck in which you dont have your seatbelt on. If something isnt attached (as the wheel assembly was tore from the vehicle before it came to a complete stop) it will continue moving until met with an equal opposing force.

In the first still, the car is just about to come into contact with the fence for the first time. The black mark on the SAFER barrier is from Larson's front driver side tire which is right at :23 seconds in the slow motion video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZAufR1Xv3A&sns=em

Image

The second still, the car has torn through the fencing and is beginning its spin back towards the infield. As you can see, there is fence cabling in between the camera and tire meaning the tire is BEHIND the fence.

Image

If you pause the video at :26 seconds you will see the tire BEHIND the fence just about the smoke/debris cloud. If you go to :28 seconds it appears that the tire "clears" or goes above the fencing. This is an optical trick basically. It is impossible for the tire to come back over the fence from the track side of it.


Two wheels come off remember.

And I am not in denial I'm just staying open until the investigators do their job.

You would have thought people would have learnt after Brazil that internet analysis based on limited footage is pointless.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Tim, the wheel that did the damage went over the fence. Watch your original video posted at about 19 sec. The impact of the car traveling at about 160mph can cause a lot of damage, the fence stopped the majority of the car's force and perhaps having a gate right at that point is a design flaw of the track but the wheel that did the damage went over the fence not through it. Only the gate section, where then engine and other wheel/suspension assy laid was the major portion of the fence damage.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:41 pm 
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The wheel did NOT go over the fence. It went higher but it is physically impossible for it to travel in a boomerang matter. Yes, two wheels came off. The driver side wheel was with the engine and the passenger went into the stands. Watch the video from the stands people. Pay attention and it's plain to see it doesn't.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:16 pm 
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OK, I've looked at this from different angles and still can't tell for sure how the wheel got into the stands BUT I will say it looks more and more like the wheel went through the fence perhaps at this gate some of us are talking about but I also still say the catch fence did it's job to took away the majority of the force of the car.

Is there something else that could have been done, sure, but everything in hindsight is 20-20.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Steve C wrote:
OK, I've looked at this from different angles and still can't tell for sure how the wheel got into the stands BUT I will say it looks more and more like the wheel went through the fence perhaps at this gate some of us are talking about but I also still say the catch fence did it's job to took away the majority of the force of the car.

Is there something else that could have been done, sure, but everything in hindsight is 20-20.

Steve, look at the last video I posted. If you can't see the tire going through the fence and upward into the crowd, then you simply just don't WANT to see it. It's as plain as day.

Same goes for you, Johnston.

What difference does it make whether 2 wheels came off?. Everyone knows that. So did an engine. They all ended up inside the fence. Nobody's concentrating on them because they didn't travel on up into the stands and hit spectators. We can see the one wheel and suspension assembly flying through the fence, through the air and into the seats. How do the other items change any of that?

LMAO at some of you. Water isn't wet? The sky isn't blue?

I understand Steve arguing with me. I know him and he'll argue with literally almost anything I say, no matter how easily verifiable.

Oh, and Steve, re: 20/20 hindsight, this isn't an isolated incident. 7 people were hurt at Talladega when Carl Edwards' car went into the fence in a very similar fashion. Including this incident, I can think of about 10 MASSIVE incidents of cars going into the catch fencing in NASCAR races.

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Last edited by hairy_scotsman on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:14 pm 
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bballr4567 wrote:
The wheel did NOT go over the fence. It went higher but it is physically impossible for it to travel in a boomerang matter. Yes, two wheels came off. The driver side wheel was with the engine and the passenger went into the stands. Watch the video from the stands people. Pay attention and it's plain to see it doesn't.



Is it really?



Of course it can there are enough objects on track for it to bounce off .

Oh and by the way I found a Video that was 720p. You can clearly see the wheel going straight up and over h a few supports down from the main crash into the fencing. .

Which means
Image

Isn't the one that went upwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fQxnvFCu8M

about 40 seconds, just after the first impact into the netting you can see the wheel going over

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Last edited by Johnston on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
bballr4567 wrote:
The wheel did NOT go over the fence. It went higher but it is physically impossible for it to travel in a boomerang matter. Yes, two wheels came off. The driver side wheel was with the engine and the passenger went into the stands. Watch the video from the stands people. Pay attention and it's plain to see it doesn't.



Is it really?



Of course it can there are enough objects on track for it to bounce off .

Oh and by the way I found a Video that was 720p. You can clearly see the wheel going straight up and through the over hang a few supports down from the main crash into the fencing. .

Which means
Image

Isn't the one that went upwards


Wheeeeeeeeee!

We've shown you the same photos and videos and have told you repeatedly...and you can see in those videos that this is the tire that goes upward into the crowd. If you video evidence to the contrary, then post it, and if a tire bounced around on the track and then was struck and knocked up into the stands, then we'd be able to see that. Where is it?

Answer: That didn't happen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:30 pm 
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OK I see you edited your post to include the video. That video does nothing but support what we're saying.

This is ridiculous your denial is nothing short of bizarre.

Quote:
a few supports down from the main crash into the fencing. .


No sir. That's right at the point of impact. The pole just to the right of the wheel in that photo is the pole that Larson struck doing most of the damage and knocking both front wheels and engine off the car.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:33 pm 
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What?

You clearly see the wheel going over the fence.

you can even see it rattling the over hang on the way over.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
What?

You clearly see the wheel going over the fence.

you can even see it rattling the over hang on the way over.

No. Look at the last video I posted. The one from in the stands behind the accident. The wheel starts low and climbs, but never gets higher than about 2/3 of the height of the fence...so how could it have gone over it. It didn't. It came through the gate that broke away.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:46 pm 
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hairy_scotsman wrote:
Steve C wrote:
OK, I've looked at this from different angles and still can't tell for sure how the wheel got into the stands BUT I will say it looks more and more like the wheel went through the fence perhaps at this gate some of us are talking about but I also still say the catch fence did it's job to took away the majority of the force of the car.

Is there something else that could have been done, sure, but everything in hindsight is 20-20.

Steve, look at the last video I posted. If you can't see the tire going through the fence and upward into the crowd, then you simply just don't WANT to see it. It's as plain as day.

Same goes for you, Johnston.

What difference does it make whether 2 wheels came off?. Everyone knows that. So did an engine. They all ended up inside the fence. Nobody's concentrating on them because they didn't travel on up into the stands and hit spectators. We can see the one wheel and suspension assembly flying through the fence, through the air and into the seats. How do the other items change any of that?

LMAO at some of you. Water isn't wet? The sky isn't blue?

I understand Steve arguing with me. I know him and he'll argue with literally almost anything I say, no matter how easily verifiable.

Oh, and Steve, re: 20/20 hindsight, this isn't an isolated incident. 7 people were hurt at Talladega when Carl Edwards' car went into the fence in a very similar fashion. Including this incident, I can think of about 10 MASSIVE incidents of cars going into the catch fencing in NASCAR races.


Tim, you can have your say all day long but I can agree with you and be wrong sometimes. There are two wheels here, right? One unattached from any axle and one attached with some front end components. Both end up in the stands and perhaps they both went through the fence in the exact same gate. But this is just an accident and despite what you might believe, it doesn't happen all that often.

I'm not arguing with you just to argue with you. I am after the truth about what happened and just like most other things that happen anywhere, we are all just speculating on the internet and don't know the truth.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:05 pm 
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hairy_scotsman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
What?

You clearly see the wheel going over the fence.

you can even see it rattling the over hang on the way over.

No. Look at the last video I posted. The one from in the stands behind the accident. The wheel starts low and climbs, but never gets higher than about 2/3 of the height of the fence...so how could it have gone over it. It didn't. It came through the gate that broke away.



Then if it came from behind the fence how did it rattle the over hang?

Put the vid to 720p blow it up to full screen get pissed off with the stuttering (If your computer is anything like mine) and you can see the over hang shake as the wheel goes over despite none of the fence below it moving.

Now if the wheel didn't travel any higher than 2/3rds of the height of the fence whats that black round thing in the air that makes the overhang bounce?

I do have a screen grab on the computer but I think the size would have the Mods breathing down my neck if I posted :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:16 pm 
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The tire came off the passenger side of the car which is past the fence line! It how the engine is on the walkway. The fence gets rattled because there is the equivalent force of 30000 lbs slamming into the support posts.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Sigh...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Image

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:31 pm 
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bballr4567 wrote:
The tire came off the passenger side of the car which is past the fence line! It how the engine is on the walkway. The fence gets rattled because there is the equivalent force of 30000 lbs slamming into the support posts.



Thats why I said nothing below that part of the over hang moves.

It's closer to the starters post or whatever you call it, you can see the wheel going up, the over hang "Pings" and the wheel keeps going. BUT and this is the crucial BUT nothing else on that part of the fence moves the part from the original hit is pretty much demolished. If the shake was coming from something else hitting the fence then the support posts further down would be moving too or at the very least the rest of the fish net.. and it's a mighty coincidence that the over hang should shake just at the very moment a black round object gets to the same height as it on the inside.

Edit watch the vid I put up, blow it up full screen 720p.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Awesome hairy.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:09 pm 
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bballr4567 wrote:
Awesome hairy.

Thanks bballr.

You wouldn't happen to post under a similar name over on F1Technical, would you?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:39 pm 
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It would appear that the worst possible spot along the fence (the gate) for a car carrying that much momentum was in fact hit. It also appears that most of the debris also came through the gate. I'm sure NASCAR has spec's for such openings in the fence like this and perhaps they need to be beefed up but this still is an accident in my mind that doesn't happen all that often.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:44 pm 
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I seem surprised how close the spectator is with just the one fence in the way.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Look at the slowmo in this video. It's not over the fence.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e2c_1361717939

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Johnston, post that photo you said we would have a problem with. If one side of the debate is posting pics you're missing a trcik in not doing the same, and I rather want to get to the bottom of this one.

As an aside, those of you who have raised concerns about posts in here, rest assured we are keeping an eye on things.

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Rules - Last updated 9 Sep 2013: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12&p=34#p34


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