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 Post subject: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:57 am 
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Running a successful team, that keeps winning is Definitely not a one man job. So, if I could put it as simply,
"What does Redbull have that others dont?"

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:01 am 
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More money


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:20 am 
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Parker wrote:
More money

Money s just part of it. But it has been proved time and again money doesnt buy you wins. According to unconfirmed sources Ferrari still has the biggest sponsors and Redbull is by no means the biggests spender

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:32 am 
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There is more than money to it. It is the right approach and right people working in tandem.
They systematically went and recruited the people capable of turning team into world championship winning team.
When they had people, right facilities, right work environment, they threw money at it at the right time and we are seeing the results.
There is no doubt that their large budget is key, but the money is spent in a way that is getting them championships.
They have cutting edge factory, simulator and one of the best team of people and best designer on the grid with them.
And one very good young driver.

And that money will keep them at or near the top for a while until this set of people are still with them working with same hunger.
The only 2 teams that I can see match them are Ferrari and McLaren, but neither of them have budget that is going to be as high as RedBull for a while. Ferrari is even behind in terms of facilities.
If they or McLaren do manage to beat RedBull this season, it will be some achievement.
I want them beaten, not only because I want my team to win which I obviously do, but I want to see how they react after getting beaten having been at top for 3 years in a row.
But still RedBull will start as clear favourites this year. It will take something special for others to beat them.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:33 am 
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Race2win wrote:
Parker wrote:
More money

Money s just part of it. But it has been proved time and again money doesnt buy you wins. According to unconfirmed sources Ferrari still has the biggest sponsors and Redbull is by no means the biggests spender


Oh no, they are the biggest spender at this point. They have been for last 2 years. Their budget is believed to be 20-40million more than likes of Ferrari.
But yeah, as I mentioned in the post above, it is not just money.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:12 am 
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They spent a lot of money and went out there to purchase the best personnel available. They ended up with two of the better drivers and a management that seems to know how to operate to a high standard. The reason other teams have failed with similar resources is that they've had the wrong priorities or outlook. Red Bull knew it would take time and spent time developing the team. In the early days they had a junior team that could effectively work with the sister squad and it all built up to what they have now.

As well, Red Bull are still running on the advantage that they earnt with the regulation changes for 2009. They got an upper hand at the end of the decade and have been able to hold on to it. If they'd built a Williams-quality car for the '09 season, I can't be sure they'd have been nearly as successful as they have been over the past three years.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:16 am 
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What does Redbull have that others dont?

Answer: Adrian Newey


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:18 am 
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SteveC84 wrote:
What does Redbull have that others dont?

Answer: Adrian Newey


This :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:32 am 
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I'm not exactly a fan of theirs but I respect them for what they have achieved, they sure have made teams like Mclaren and Ferrari look like a bunch of amateurs though.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:33 am 
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SteveC84 wrote:
What does Redbull have that others dont?

Answer: Adrian Newey


Real answer: Team harmony


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:44 am 
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Its amazing that no ones mentioned a particular young driver, a three times WDC! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:14 am 
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Sheepgobba wrote:
SteveC84 wrote:
What does Redbull have that others dont?
Answer: Adrian Newey

This :thumbup:

Its not just "The Designer" or "The Driver" Adrian Newey can design all he wants bug he definitely wont be able to make the the car to perfection. Im sure Adrian doesnt understand half the things about making a certain part. Even Vettel wouldnt know. Today there are more people which PHDs in the paddock than a regular sized university. I definitely dont believe that BS "its all because of Newey". Both Ferrari and Mclaren have WCC winning designers why havent they been able to emulate the same success

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:22 am 
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Race2win wrote:
Sheepgobba wrote:
SteveC84 wrote:
What does Redbull have that others dont?
Answer: Adrian Newey

This :thumbup:

Its not just "The Designer" or "The Driver" Adrian Newey can design all he wants bug he definitely wont be able to make the the car to perfection. Im sure Adrian doesnt understand half the things about making a certain part. Even Vettel wouldnt know. Today there are more people which PHDs in the paddock than a regular sized university. I definitely dont believe that BS "its all because of Newey". Both Ferrari and Mclaren have WCC winning designers why havent they been able to emulate the same success

Who mentioned anything about success?

I simply said Red Bull have Adrian Newey and others dont.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:31 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
There is more than money to it. It is the right approach and right people working in tandem.
They systematically went and recruited the people capable of turning team into world championship winning team.
When they had people, right facilities, right work environment, they threw money at it at the right time and we are seeing the results.
There is no doubt that their large budget is key, but the money is spent in a way that is getting them championships.
They have cutting edge factory, simulator and one of the best team of people and best designer on the grid with them.
And one very good young driver.

And that money will keep them at or near the top for a while until this set of people are still with them working with same hunger.
The only 2 teams that I can see match them are Ferrari and McLaren, but neither of them have budget that is going to be as high as RedBull for a while. Ferrari is even behind in terms of facilities.
If they or McLaren do manage to beat RedBull this season, it will be some achievement.
I want them beaten, not only because I want my team to win which I obviously do, but I want to see how they react after getting beaten having been at top for 3 years in a row.
But still RedBull will start as clear favourites this year. It will take something special for others to beat them.


Very good assessment.
It seems that Newey is able to 'see' the big picture in terms of the whole car so well: his runs of success are unequalled: Williams 1991-1997; McLaren 1999-2005 and now Red Bull 2009-2012.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:45 am 
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dabi wrote:
Its amazing that no ones mentioned a particular young driver, a three times WDC! :)


Any team that dominates has to have a top driver. Vettel is certainly a great driver.

Imo Alonso and Hamilton and possibly Raikkonen (in 2013 maybe?) could have won WDCs in the Red Bull.

This has usually been the case, when two, three or more of the top drivers could have won WDCs in the fastest/best cars. This is not to put Sebastian down; just that a dominant car-team elevates the driver way above others in media/fan perceptions. If Fangio had not had dominant cars imo Ascari and later Moss would have taken the WDC's in his cars/teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:13 pm 
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SteveC84 wrote:
What does Redbull have that others dont?

Answer: Adrian Newey

No. McLaren won just 3 titles with Newey and then nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Im assuming here but does anybody have a budget list? Yea, all just rumors. Until there is a salary cap in place we will never know how much the teams spend and guessing is just silly.

RBR just has the right people in place at the right time and recruited the right driver. Its happened in other sports and is just the way it happens when you build a team correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
Running a successful team, that keeps winning is Definitely not a one man job. So, if I could put it as simply,
"What does Redbull have that others dont?"

Newey and Vettel

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:52 pm 
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To answer what they have others do not it is

Newey

What they have to compliment Newey that other teams don't not have to such a extent.

A world class driver (Vettel)
Money
Team Harmony

Maybe some of the other teams have two of the above, in the case of Ferrari maybe all three (but not Newey) but only Red Bull have the most advantages, most of which to be fair are of their own making.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:05 pm 
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The biggest difference between RBR and the others is that they worry about themselves first. The culture within the team is different. Its not about beating everyone else, its being the best they can be. Different focus. They've been very fortunate to be able to put together like minded people, and success breeds success. They're happy, they work harder, they win. Its not about one designer, one engineer, one driver. They're a machine.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:29 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
The biggest difference between RBR and the others is that they worry about themselves first. The culture within the team is different. Its not about beating everyone else, its being the best they can be. Different focus. They've been very fortunate to be able to put together like minded people, and success breeds success. They're happy, they work harder, they win. Its not about one designer, one engineer, one driver. They're a machine.


What makes you think other F1 top teams are not trying to be the best they can be and are focusing on something different than the Bulls?

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Harmony, Vettel, Newey & they are on a roll.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Flexibility is their key strength. They can change things very swiftly it's their culture of how they approach things. Of course Newey & Horner are the key ingredient of this team. They adapt very quickly with innovative yet simple ideas. For example, look at last years Exhaust Problem they've had. First test in Jerez, they see Sauber using firstly the Coanda Effect, next time in Spain, they have the best version of Coanda in the paddock! Abrakadabra!

Surely they weren't the first to introduce the EBD's in 2009 yet they've made their own version the best one.

In two words I would say: Flexibility and Elegance

Another example is Merc. They have a fairy cakes load of money, they have AMG and Mercedes as their reference for technological resources yet they're very uncoordinated. Very rigid, they make something innovative, sure it works 2-3 races than things change they just cannot adapt. Rigidity.

2012 was an excellent example when Lotus beat Merc, if it weren't for Grosjean driving like a Monster I'm sure easily they would have ended 3rd on WCC. What did they have in 2012? - Flexibility & Elegance, simple solutions, easy to adapt designs.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:51 pm 
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They must have got friendly during last year


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:03 pm 
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As far as I see it - Red Bull 'bought' their way into F1 from the start - but also made a long term commitment to keep 'buying in'. Moreover, as soon as that commitment bore some fruit - more financing commitment followed. Unlike say FI - where Mallya also 'bought in' to F1 - Mallya doesn't have the almost endless cash reserves that RBR have. I don't begrudge RB their success, but it really is down to 'constructing' a team and having the resources to 'get what they want' to ensure successful construction of that team!
Hence, it is indeed a team effort that has resulted in their success, but it is ultimately based on financing.
Macca wanted to be successful, and were - but could not sustain the finances - hence the development of their other car interests. Ferrari are the worlds biggest brand but have limited finances, where they also need to see returns for the investment - but the brand exposure they get still perpetuates the brand quite successfully! (but I do think that because of the Tifosi, they will always have enough support/brand exposure?)
I have never bought a red bull drink and I honestly fail to see how they justify their F1 team (perhaps originally as tax losses LOL ?) - but if there are millions more buying their product as a result of F1 - so be it - just seems a bit unlikely to me! I should imagine that all their other extreme sport advertising/sponsorship produces at least as much revenue as F1 - but I doubt anyone will tell us!?
I also believe that the Torro Rosso aspect was/is important to the teams initial development and also provides them with an ideal set of in-season testing cars! (not that we would ever know!)


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:04 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
The biggest difference between RBR and the others is that they worry about themselves first. The culture within the team is different. Its not about beating everyone else, its being the best they can be. Different focus. They've been very fortunate to be able to put together like minded people, and success breeds success. They're happy, they work harder, they win. Its not about one designer, one engineer, one driver. They're a machine.


I think you've managed to get every blurbly soundbitey PR-talk phrase that I'm aware of in that post.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:06 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
The biggest difference between RBR and the others is that they worry about themselves first. The culture within the team is different. Its not about beating everyone else, its being the best they can be. Different focus. They've been very fortunate to be able to put together like minded people, and success breeds success. They're happy, they work harder, they win. Its not about one designer, one engineer, one driver. They're a machine.


I think you've managed to get every blurbly soundbitey PR-talk phrase that I'm aware of in that post.

:thumbup: pmsl


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:26 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
The biggest difference between RBR and the others is that they worry about themselves first. The culture within the team is different. Its not about beating everyone else, its being the best they can be. Different focus. They've been very fortunate to be able to put together like minded people, and success breeds success. They're happy, they work harder, they win. Its not about one designer, one engineer, one driver. They're a machine.


I think you've managed to get every blurbly soundbitey PR-talk phrase that I'm aware of in that post.

Nope, she left out synergy.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:33 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
The biggest difference between RBR and the others is that they worry about themselves first. The culture within the team is different. Its not about beating everyone else, its being the best they can be. Different focus. They've been very fortunate to be able to put together like minded people, and success breeds success. They're happy, they work harder, they win. Its not about one designer, one engineer, one driver. They're a machine.


I think you've managed to get every blurbly soundbitey PR-talk phrase that I'm aware of in that post.

Nope, she left out synergy.


Good point. I suppose "going forward" could have been there somewhere, too.

Urgh. I just sicked-up a tiny bit after I saw those two words on the screen.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:34 pm 
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Cause its truuuuuue. I've done my homework. If you go beyond the mainstream F1 coverage and fact-find for yourself, its plain to see. Believe whatever you wish, it doesn't make a difference :P

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:07 am 
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They have a tight crew and factory team, excellent leadership, fantastic management. They made a brilliant decision to hold on to Sebastian Vettel and wrestled Adrian Newey from his comfortable position at Macca, but they also have numerous other equally or less celebrated people who are "key" to their ongoing success.

A well oiled machine, but you have to continuously update, revise, revamp, replan, redevise, redesign, etc., to keep that machine at the top of its class. They have been doing a good job with that as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:34 am 
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It's also worth noting that they prepared for the 2009 regs very well by upgrading their wind tunnel and simulation facilities. I believe only Mclaren have comparable facilities. The likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus have only upgraded their wind tunnels from 50% to 60% post 2009.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:17 am 
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Another way of asking this question is:

The team would suffer the MOST by whose removal from the team, assuming the next best guy (or a one better than him) in F1 replaces him?

There's only one right answer to that question, and that is ADRIAN NEWEY. Vettel can easily be replaced by Alonso or Hami.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:55 am 
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TheThirdTenor wrote:
It's also worth noting that they prepared for the 2009 regs very well by upgrading their wind tunnel and simulation facilities. I believe only Mclaren have comparable facilities. The likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus have only upgraded their wind tunnels from 50% to 60% post 2009.

BMW-Sauber had the best wind tunnel and CFD in 2009. I can be mistaken but BMW had 100% wind tunnel for a while. Now they can use only 60%. McLaren wants to build new wind tunnel. While designing this years cars McLaren and Ferrari used Toyota wind tunnel. Ferrari also builds brand new wind tunnel and headquarters.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:20 am 
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Race2win wrote:
Running a successful team, that keeps winning is Definitely not a one man job. So, if I could put it as simply,
"What does Redbull have that others dont?"

More money: $300m+. They spend at least 20% more than Ferrari and McLaren c.$240 each, and 50% more than Lotus c.$190, Double Williams' $145 budget...
A willingness to ignore the RRA.
Bending the rules (and wings).
Or top take the question literally: Blue cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:28 am 
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Also a change in regulations in 2009 which propelled them to the sharp edge


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:36 am 
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bbobeckyj wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Running a successful team, that keeps winning is Definitely not a one man job. So, if I could put it as simply,
"What does Redbull have that others dont?"

More money: $300m+. They spend at least 20% more than Ferrari and McLaren c.$240 each, and 50% more than Lotus c.$190, Double Williams' $145 budget...
A willingness to ignore the RRA.


Do you have the data to back that up? Not that I question it, I just would like to see it "proven".

Quote:
Bending the rules (and wings).


That's what they all try to do. Look at Williams and Caterham this year.
Flexi wings? Well, Ferrari complained in 2012 about the wings of the Mclaren too. So it's not exactly an exclusive to RBR.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:19 am 
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mds wrote:
bbobeckyj wrote:
Race2win wrote:
Running a successful team, that keeps winning is Definitely not a one man job. So, if I could put it as simply,
"What does Redbull have that others dont?"

More money: $300m+. They spend at least 20% more than Ferrari and McLaren c.$240 each, and 50% more than Lotus c.$190, Double Williams' $145 budget...
A willingness to ignore the RRA.


Do you have the data to back that up? Not that I question it, I just would like to see it "proven".

Joe Saward's GrandPrix+ e-magazine, issue 118, the season review issue of 2012. It's subscriber only, but at £30 for the year, one magazine for each GP, plus a season preview and review, and all issues of the previous year are included, it's great value for money.
His blog also has some limited and supporting information on it, in this post.

I can't recommend Saward's work highly enough.

I think that James Allen did something similar at some point on his blog too, but I don't respect his insight as much, and I suspect him of recycling others' work and opinion and passing it on as his own sometimes (for example he claimed to have leaked the Hamilton to Mercedes story in one).


Quote:
Quote:
Bending the rules (and wings).


That's what they all try to do. Look at Williams and Caterham this year.
Flexi wings? Well, Ferrari complained in 2012 about the wings of the Mclaren too. So it's not exactly an exclusive to RBR.

That was a joke, but Ferrari especially, will complain about any team beating them. Maybe it's my memory but I don't remember RB complaining publicly about other's innovations as much as Ferrari do.


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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:05 pm 
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A plentiful source of free energy drinks....

But in all seriousness, at least from an outside perspective they have a team pulling in one direction, a lot of money and resources, a star driver and a genius chief designer. I'm not a fan but they certainly know what they are doing and there doesn't seem to be any internal disharmony (barring occasional sarcastic comments from Webber.) It's pretty obvious Mclaren didn't have such peace and I don't think Ferrari have either.

They also capitalised on the 2009 rule changes better than any of the other teams (bar brawn), whereas Mclaren and Ferrari were slow to react and fell behind and only really caught up properly last season.

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 Post subject: Re: Redbull Vs The Rest
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Can I just chime in and agree with bbobeckyj's support of Joe and GP+. A fantastically informative digi-mag, it's usually in my inbox within 3-4 hours of the chequered flag. Being an indie, there is usually more opinion pieces on the blog/in GP+, too.


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