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Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master he was/is made out to be?

So in 2010 and particularly many people were dubbing Vettel as a qualifying master of some sort and comparisons were made with the likes of Senna. In 2012 we saw him almost evenly matched with Webber (it was 11-9 in Vettel's favour), and there were a number of occasions where he simply couldn't deliver in Q3.

Contrast this with Hamilton or Alonso who both beat their respective teammates 17-3 yet we rarely hear how great these 2 are in terms of qualifying. In fact, in Alonso's case there seems to be quite a few who think he is a weak qualifier.

Thoughts?

Yup: absolute stats are meaningless if you don't factor in the qualifying capabilities of the respective teammates.

Yes, his team mate is regarded as a qualifying specialist. I can't see Hamilton or Alonso doing any better against Webber to be honest.

Vettel's obviously a very good qualifier but he's also more often than not had the fastest car these past few years, this year he had a very good car but the best qualifier was Hamilton, so its open to debate if he is better than Hamilton.

In respect to say Senna who didn't always need the fastest car to qualify on pole or to qualify well, i would say Vettel came unstuck somewhat in this regards when his car wasn't so great early in the season.

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The RB8 had amazing one lap speed, ok, got that out of the way.

Nando isn't the greatest qualifier but managed to out qual his team mate most of the year, Hamilton has some mad skills but is some time miss rather than hit.

Vettel is the greatest qualifier on the grid, but it's been a while since we had a qualy specialist, and in decent car. Trulli at Toyota would be the last.

Massa was regarded as a very strong qualifer before Alonso joined as a team mate.

Very good point. In 2010 -2011 Red Bull managed to get 33/38 pole positions!

Well Alonso himself has said he's not the strongest qualifier so I think it's pretty safe to rule him out. And as others have pointed out, Webber is considered to be something of a qualifying specialist so Vettel is indeed a strong candidate.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

I'll say Vettel is definitely 1 of the best qualifiers but nothing compared to Senna. Although I do see some flashes of Senna during some of his and Lewis' runs. But Senna was on a different planet altogether. Way ahead.

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Yep he was the best quailifier in 2008

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2009,2010, 2012 he has barely shaded Webber with a ratio of about 3:2. 2011 he dominated Webber.

That makes 2011 the anomaly, Webber could not work that car, so however you look at it he is just a bit stronger than Webber who I rate as a good qualifier but slightly inconsistent.

If you rate Vettel as the best, Webber would have to be 2nd or 3rd.

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This is about 2012 though, when Hamilton has the fastest car he's regarded as the best, but when Vettel has the fastest car then all the credit goes to the car.

All I was saying is that if Hamilton or Alonso were in Vettels seat for 2012, they would have not done much of a better job than Vettel has against Webber, if at all.

If its just about 2012 then i'd go with Hamilton, Vettel went missing at the beginning of the year when the car wasn't so great, he was average in an average car.

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how many pole positions did Webber have before Vettel joined him as his team mate?

totally agree. I think SV got the better of Webbo in all RB cars, and is certainly better than MW at stringing a perfect lap together, but I think quali master is a bit strong, given the strength of the RB cars overall and their usual 'advantage' from whatever means they used (flexi wings, etc). It was only the latter half of the season when the RB8 was 100% competitive did SV start to quali really well IIRC.......
Alonso is no quali master, and if anyone here had to bet of someone putting a car a few places up on its expected grid position week in week out - I think it would be Hamilton over Vettel ..........All the others, Rosberg, Kimi, etc mostly all seemed to place their cars where expected, if you see what I mean....

Hamilton imo is the best qualifier. Laps like Korea 2011, Canada 2010, Spain 2012*, Hungary 2012 a few examples of where he was way better than the rest either by a worse car or utter dominance.

However by his blistering laps he occasionally makes slight errors, which I put down to trying too hard, like Valencia 2010 & Hungary 2011

Vettel was poor in 2012 on several occasions like China, Abu Dhabi. Though in 2011 was good.

I believe Hamilton is better as he is consistently in Q3 (every race in 2012) & I wouldn't bet against the same happening in 2013

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Close doesn't count

I would say he is at least level with Hamilton. The team mate battle is some what distorted as Webber could well be the 3rd best over one lap and Button is fairy poor.

You cannot base your analysis in only one season.

Whilst I agree Alonso may one of the strongest qualifiers. He certainly isn't a slouch. He's very good in qualifying. I wouldn't put it past Alonso beating Webber in quali.

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Formula Mercedes

Alonso

Wierd how you conveniently choose Vettel's closest season relative to Webber (11-9) and then say he's not all that...
So Hamilton is the 1 lap master in 2012 for merely putting the fastest car on pole 7 times (8 if we count Spain) compared to Vettel next best at 6.
But when Vettel obliterates the field and breaks the F1 record with 15 poles in the fastest car, he's merely got the best car.

Vettel has beaten Webber 15-2, 12-7, 16-3 and 11-9 and Webber was/is seen as a better qualifier than racer. He used to be seen as a qualy specialist, so whoever said the 2011 was the anomaly in qualifying was wrong there.

Alonso is quick and would give Webber and Vettel and Hamilton (as shown in 2007) a good run, but I'd back Vettel to outqualify him more, maybe 60%/40%
Hamilton is very quick but hasn't been consistantly tested in a team-mate qualy battle for 5 years

Actually, i thought 2012 was Vettels scrappiest year qualy wise. Some unconvincing laps, even the pole lap in India. But since 2009 he's missed Q3 only 3 times and qualified off the top 2 rows only 11 times in 75 races

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In India, he won it 4 times
"I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I WON!"
Those that can, do
Those that can't, boo
14/11/10 Miracle
09/10/11 Double
25/11/12 Treble
27/10/13 Quadruple

Vettel was so average he was the leader in the championship in the first quarter of the year, and was the only RB driver on the podium with 2 in those first 5 races. Alright in qualy he was 3-2 down after 5 events but saying he went hiding when the car wasn't there isn't right

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In India, he won it 4 times
"I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I WON!"
Those that can, do
Those that can't, boo
14/11/10 Miracle
09/10/11 Double
25/11/12 Treble
27/10/13 Quadruple

He also did not set a Q3 time at the Spanish and Monaco GP to save tires IRRC.

How many pole position worthy cars did Webber have before Vettel joined him as his team mate?

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I don't follow F1 so I don't know what I'm talking about

Was. Many moons ago.

And Vettel got 24 of those.

Oh yes. (facepalm) - I was forgetting Canada 2010 but the lap was perfect & I included Spain with an asterix as I believe the lap was that good it deserved a mention

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Close doesn't count

agree with ATH that Canada and Spain cant really count as he was running light

but i think you should add Abu Dhabi 2012 to the list because he out qualified everyone by like 0.400 or something (cant remember) and his team mate by 0.600

huh?

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Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

Given equal machinery, Id put my money on Hamilton as the best qualifier on the grid

Useless to look at the X:Y qualifying score between two teammates. If you want to decide whether or not Vettel is a qualifying master, look at where he qualified, not how many times he out-qualified Mark. Quality over quantity.

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This is where the party's at.
Webber.Button.Ricciardo.Grosjean.Hulkenberg.Lowndes.Power.Marquez.

Alonso, Massa, Hamilton and Button got a combined total of 4 pole positions between them. And these guys all had multiple pole positions to their names prior to 2010.

I don't think it's useless since his team mate is the only one driving the same car.

I would say Hamilton is currently the best qualifier on the grid.

Watching the times i come to think Vettel is second best, However watching onboards i always think Vettel could have easily found more time, and that doubts him a bit for me.

Alonso and Raikonnen are no slouches, the Raikonnen of 2004-2005 i think was THE quali master.

It was an amazing lap. As Anthony Davidson said Hamilton was the difference there

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Really? this is what it's coming to now?

He is good, but I believe Hamilton is better. You hear Vettel say alot of the times ''My lap wasn't perfect, but it was enough for pole.'' No bash at Vettel though, he is great but I still think it has alot to do with the car. He is possibly the second best qualifier on the grid.

And to quote Hamilton: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/03/f ... ndup-0311/

“I think lots of people in the paddock wish they could have Adrian [Newey’s] car so they could show that they’re just as competitive as Sebastian. Fernando, for me, is more accurate. He hits all the apexes. Sebastian misses four apexes on a single lap and still goes quickest. He goes off and he still goes quickest. And I think ‘Holy crap, I couldn’t do that lap even if I was on the limit’. His car is just that far ahead of everyone else’s.”

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Hamilton, Ricciardo, Grosjean

I have to laugh at this one. When Hamilton was seen missing apexes during a Q3 qualy lap in the latter part of the 2012 season (Austin IIRC), his fans were saying he was "battling the car" and "missing those apexes actually meant going faster".

Anyhow, Hamiltons comments about Alonso and Vettel have lost all meaning to me. Hamilton and Alonso are in some kind of a "defy the common enemy"-bromance and have made that clear on multiple occasions. I have no doubt that it stems from their period together at Mclaren. If you've performed about the same in the same machinery, praising the other as being the best of the grid reflects back at you.

Yes, he is an amazing qualifier but I am not sure you would call him the qualifying master. There are many times I have been stunned to see him get just that little bit extra in Q3 to take poll especially the times that he has done just one flying lap but, having said that, I think that if you put Hamilton in that Red Bull he would probably be able to do the same thing