planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:15 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:06 am
Posts: 2334
I agree with posters who reckon Alonso and Hamitlon would have done about the same as Vettel in the Red Bulls.
And with those who say Senna was exceptional in qualifying.

_________________
http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:00 pm
Posts: 2986
MikeV1987 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
I would say Hamilton is currently the best qualifier on the grid.

Watching the times i come to think Vettel is second best, However watching onboards i always think Vettel could have easily found more time, and that doubts him a bit for me.

Alonso and Raikonnen are no slouches, the Raikonnen of 2004-2005 i think was THE quali master.



:lol:

Really? this is what it's coming to now?


I know this is a typical armchair expert stuff. But i can't help but say so, he is usually in control but he does sometimes go a bit wide, I am no racing driver and just because he does things differently it by no means prove he is wrong/slower. so i could be wrong, but when i watch an onboard from Lewis and an onboard from Seb i get the feeling Lewis would be a lot better than him over one lap. just my take on things


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:26 pm
Posts: 804
Location: Ontario, Canada
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
I would say Hamilton is currently the best qualifier on the grid.

Watching the times i come to think Vettel is second best, However watching onboards i always think Vettel could have easily found more time, and that doubts him a bit for me.

Alonso and Raikonnen are no slouches, the Raikonnen of 2004-2005 i think was THE quali master.



:lol:

Really? this is what it's coming to now?


I know this is a typical armchair expert stuff. But i can't help but say so, he is usually in control but he does sometimes go a bit wide, I am no racing driver and just because he does things differently it by no means prove he is wrong/slower. so i could be wrong, but when i watch an onboard from Lewis and an onboard from Seb i get the feeling Lewis would be a lot better than him over one lap. just my take on things


Going wide isn't always bad, you are trying to carry as much speed as possible through a corner, the shortest route through a corner isn't necessarily the fastest. Most drivers shorten the corner so they would use less throttle, Vettel on the other hand is willing to risk powering off a track or into a wall to gain a tenth or two. One thing I noticed about him over the years is that he brakes earlier and harder than anybody while the car is in a straight line, then he does a little trail braking to help get the car turned into the corner, by doing this he is often on full throttle sooner than any of the other top guys and carries immense speed on the exit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2530
DrG wrote:
Yes, he is an amazing qualifier but I am not sure you would call him the qualifying master. There are many times I have been stunned to see him get just that little bit extra in Q3 to take poll especially the times that he has done just one flying lap but, having said that, I think that if you put Hamilton in that Red Bull he would probably be able to do the same thing :D

This is why I rate those two as 1a & 1b. I don't think either has a clear edge over the other in this regard. Given equal machinery they would swap poles often, and probably rarely would one out do the other by a large margin. Who came out ahead at the end of the season might come down to who had more tracks that suits him on the schedule.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
Hamilton imo is the best qualifier. Laps like Korea 2011, Canada 2010, Spain 2012*, Hungary 2012 a few examples of where he was way better than the rest either by a worse car or utter dominance.

I think Hamilton is probably the best qualifier on the grid, but in two of those examples Hamilton was running light.

He would still have been easily on pole

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 5104
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You need a fast car to put it on P1.

By your logic, where was Hamiltons qualifying ability in H1 '09?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You need a fast car to put it on P1.

By your logic, where was Hamiltons qualifying ability in H1 '09?

I wouldn't expect him to be on pole but he was getting regularly beaten by Webber, once Red Bull started putting more downforce on the car again to the point where once again it was superior then Vettel once again came to the fore

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:42 pm
Posts: 886
Location: Wooded area of USA
NO. Vettel had the best car, which helped him win poles.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Barnsley, England
I think what makes Vettel a standout qualifier is that if his car is capable of being on pole he will always put it on pole. He always delivers when under huge amounts of pressure. Sure he had some poor quali performances in 2012 but, in my eyes, that was not because he was lacking or the car was lacking any particular speed, it was because the set up of the car wasn't right for him to deliver a quick time, I think Monaco is a clear example of this and in the race he came alive.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 432
TheThirdTenor wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Useless to look at the X:Y qualifying score between two teammates. If you want to decide whether or not Vettel is a qualifying master, look at where he qualified, not how many times he out-qualified Mark. Quality over quantity.


I don't think it's useless since his team mate is the only one driving the same car.


It's too general of a conclusion given that there are so many people on here who belittle everything Mark does in that car, qualifying included.

Anyway, by using the X:Y method, Mark could qualify P7, Vettel might qualify P6, but that's a point to Vettel that people will put towards him being a 'qualifying master' despite the fact that P6 is pretty woeful in a RBR (let's face it, it is). You need to have a look at where he qualified relative to everyone, not just his teammate. Everyone knows that Mark isn't thaaaaaaaaat great, so it's naive to compare Vettel's results to Mark's.

In fact it's funny that everyone will repulse Mark being compared to Vettel, but love to compare Vettel to Mark (that's not a shot at you specifically).

_________________
This is where the party's at.
Webber.Button.Ricciardo.Grosjean.Hulkenberg.Lowndes.Power.Marquez.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 5104
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You need a fast car to put it on P1.

By your logic, where was Hamiltons qualifying ability in H1 '09?

I wouldn't expect him to be on pole but he was getting regularly beaten by Webber, once Red Bull started putting more downforce on the car again to the point where once again it was superior then Vettel once again came to the fore


Yes yes, that's the same old rehashed mantra we keep on hearing.

Hamilton was beaten by Kovalainen in '09 in quite a few qualification sessions too. I repeat: you come up with H1 2012 for Vettel to prove anything, I ask you then what H1 2009 told you about Hamilton.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
Gaz wrote:
I think what makes Vettel a standout qualifier is that if his car is capable of being on pole he will always put it on pole. He always delivers when under huge amounts of pressure. Sure he had some poor quali performances in 2012 but, in my eyes, that was not because he was lacking or the car was lacking any particular speed, it was because the set up of the car wasn't right for him to deliver a quick time, I think Monaco is a clear example of this and in the race he came alive.

The car was lacking its superior downforce, its as simple as that

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
Posts: 511
Gaz wrote:
I think what makes Vettel a standout qualifier is that if his car is capable of being on pole he will always put it on pole. He always delivers when under huge amounts of pressure. Sure he had some poor quali performances in 2012 but, in my eyes, that was not because he was lacking or the car was lacking any particular speed, it was because the set up of the car wasn't right for him to deliver a quick time, I think Monaco is a clear example of this and in the race he came alive.


+1

Vettel is like clockwork and delivers, I belive that's part off why Lewis freaked out in 2011.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 am
Posts: 1197
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You are asking the wrong question. In terms of being a "qualifying master", the question should be:

With the faster and more balanced car at the start of the season, why did Hamilton get only the same number of poles as Vettel prior to the break?

Where was Hamilton's qualifying when Vettel was clearly struggling with his car in the first half of the season? Why couldn't he step in and take every pole instead of taking only 3 - the same number as Vettel by the break?

To answer your question, Vettel isn't going to regularly pole when he struggles with his car. But he still managed 3. That is what a master does. Now your turn to answer. Hamilton wasn't similarly struggling - why wasn't he able to put on a master class in the way Vettel had in past seasons?


Last edited by bourbon19 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 854
Hamilton was the best qualifyer 2012

_________________
"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
Posts: 511
Over the last three years Vettel is the best qualifier.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:33 am
Posts: 2253
Race2win wrote:
I'll say Vettel is definitely 1 of the best qualifiers but nothing compared to Senna. Although I do see some flashes of Senna during some of his and Lewis' runs. But Senna was on a different planet altogether. Way ahead.


This
Is
Sanity

_________________
2013 PF1 Pick 10 Competition:
- 4 podiums
- 2013 Rookie of the Year
- 2014 Championship leader (post-Austria)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You need a fast car to put it on P1.

By your logic, where was Hamiltons qualifying ability in H1 '09?

I wouldn't expect him to be on pole but he was getting regularly beaten by Webber, once Red Bull started putting more downforce on the car again to the point where once again it was superior then Vettel once again came to the fore


Yes yes, that's the same old rehashed mantra we keep on hearing.

Hamilton was beaten by Kovalainen in '09 in quite a few qualification sessions too. I repeat: you come up with H1 2012 for Vettel to prove anything, I ask you then what H1 2009 told you about Hamilton.

Heikki also beat Hamilton in qualifying when the McLaren was quick, however whats surprised me when looking back at the 2009 season is that in the early races when presumably the McLaren was at its poorest Hamilton was consistently outqualifying Heikki.

With Vettel it was different, at the start of last season when the Red Bull was an upper midfield qualifier he was getting beaten by Webber so what he would have made of the 2009 McLaren i don't know?

However it has to be said in the races i was very impressed by Vettel, he often finished much higher then his grid start, often beating Webber despite Webber outqualifying him, but that in effect points to someone underqualifying the car really?

Then if you look at the season as a whole with the Red Bull not being the overall fastest car of 2010 or 2011, Vettel wasn't able to dominate Webber in qualifying and gave second best to Hamilton, so its a case of give Vettel the fastest car then he's the best qualifier.

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 5104
pokerman wrote:
Heikki also beat Hamilton in qualifying when the McLaren was quick, however whats surprised me when looking back at the 2009 season is that in the early races when presumably the McLaren was at its poorest Hamilton was consistently outqualifying Heikki.


Kovalainen outqualified Hamilton in Australia, Turkey, UK, Monaco?

Quote:
With Vettel it was different, at the start of last season when the Red Bull was an upper midfield qualifier he was getting beaten by Webber so what he would have made of the 2009 McLaren i don't know?


Maybe the car suited Webbers style a bit better, who knows what would have been at Mclaren? Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You are asking the wrong question. In terms of being a "qualifying master", the question should be:

With the faster and more balanced car at the start of the season, why did Hamilton get only the same number of poles as Vettel prior to the break?

Where was Hamilton's qualifying when Vettel was clearly struggling with his car in the first half of the season? Why couldn't he step in and take every pole instead of taking only 3 - the same number as Vettel by the break?

To answer your question, Vettel isn't going to regularly pole when he struggles with his car. But he still managed 3. That is what a master does. Now your turn to answer. Hamilton wasn't similarly struggling - why wasn't he able to put on a master class in the way Vettel had in past seasons?

Well Hamilton actually managed to get 4 poles before the break, but a clumsy mechanic lost him one of those, hardly his fault. After Canada the team lost their way for 3 races, ask Jenson Button how easy the car was to drive even before Canada.

The Red Bull itself had rid itself of its early season issues from Monaco onwards (Webber, pole and win), and was as competitve as the McLaren thereafter.

The second half of the season the pole count was 4-3 to Hamilton, and looking how Webber finished the season off in qualifying, 2, 1, 2, 2, 3 and 3, its fair to say that Vettel had a fair crack at beating Hamilton.

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
AnRs wrote:
Over the last three years Vettel is the best qualifier.

Thats not the question though

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2530
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Heikki also beat Hamilton in qualifying when the McLaren was quick, however whats surprised me when looking back at the 2009 season is that in the early races when presumably the McLaren was at its poorest Hamilton was consistently outqualifying Heikki.


Kovalainen outqualified Hamilton in Australia, Turkey, UK, Monaco?

Quote:
With Vettel it was different, at the start of last season when the Red Bull was an upper midfield qualifier he was getting beaten by Webber so what he would have made of the 2009 McLaren i don't know?


Maybe the car suited Webbers style a bit better, who knows what would have been at Mclaren? Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?

Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1, Turkey was round 7, Silverstone round 8.

Regarding Webber its known he couldn't get a handle on driving a car with EBD

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
RaggedMan wrote:
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
Posts: 511
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Over the last three years Vettel is the best qualifier.

Thats not the question though


No, but it's the answer :nod:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2530
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

It all depends on how you view the question. The way I read it, it isn't about whether he was the qualifying master of 2012, but rather does his qualifying record in 2012 effect the perception prior to the start of last season as the best qualifier in the field.

After his qualiying record in 2010, and especially in 2011 Vettel was being hailed as the best on the grid on Saturday. Then when he struggled some at the start of the year some saw that as tarnishing his reputation in that regard, saying that he was clearly outshone by Mark until the car came good after the summer break. What I was pointing out is that although last year was closer between them than it was in previous years Seb still out qualified Mark more often, frequently by several positions, and when he didn't it was rarely by more than 2 positions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:00 pm
Posts: 2986
MikeV1987 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
I would say Hamilton is currently the best qualifier on the grid.

Watching the times i come to think Vettel is second best, However watching onboards i always think Vettel could have easily found more time, and that doubts him a bit for me.

Alonso and Raikonnen are no slouches, the Raikonnen of 2004-2005 i think was THE quali master.



:lol:

Really? this is what it's coming to now?


I know this is a typical armchair expert stuff. But i can't help but say so, he is usually in control but he does sometimes go a bit wide, I am no racing driver and just because he does things differently it by no means prove he is wrong/slower. so i could be wrong, but when i watch an onboard from Lewis and an onboard from Seb i get the feeling Lewis would be a lot better than him over one lap. just my take on things


Going wide isn't always bad, you are trying to carry as much speed as possible through a corner, the shortest route through a corner isn't necessarily the fastest. Most drivers shorten the corner so they would use less throttle, Vettel on the other hand is willing to risk powering off a track or into a wall to gain a tenth or two. One thing I noticed about him over the years is that he brakes earlier and harder than anybody while the car is in a straight line, then he does a little trail braking to help get the car turned into the corner, by doing this he is often on full throttle sooner than any of the other top guys and carries immense speed on the exit.


See, you are just as bad as me analyzing driving styles :)

I just wish he gets a properly fast bench-marking teammate to measure up against. Like Hamilton with Button and Alonso.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:33 pm
Posts: 922
Gaz wrote:
I think what makes Vettel a standout qualifier is that if his car is capable of being on pole he will always put it on pole. He always delivers when under huge amounts of pressure. Sure he had some poor quali performances in 2012 but, in my eyes, that was not because he was lacking or the car was lacking any particular speed, it was because the set up of the car wasn't right for him to deliver a quick time, I think Monaco is a clear example of this and in the race he came alive.


Your first line is simply not true. Singapore 12, Korea 12, Monaco 12, Nurburgring 11, Silverstone 11, Spa 10, Singapore 10, Barcelona 10 are all examples of times he's had a car capable of qualifying on
pole but failed to deliver in Q3.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:33 pm
Posts: 922
MikeV1987 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
MikeV1987 wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
I would say Hamilton is currently the best qualifier on the grid.

Watching the times i come to think Vettel is second best, However watching onboards i always think Vettel could have easily found more time, and that doubts him a bit for me.

Alonso and Raikonnen are no slouches, the Raikonnen of 2004-2005 i think was THE quali master.



:lol:

Really? this is what it's coming to now?


I know this is a typical armchair expert stuff. But i can't help but say so, he is usually in control but he does sometimes go a bit wide, I am no racing driver and just because he does things differently it by no means prove he is wrong/slower. so i could be wrong, but when i watch an onboard from Lewis and an onboard from Seb i get the feeling Lewis would be a lot better than him over one lap. just my take on things


Going wide isn't always bad, you are trying to carry as much speed as possible through a corner, the shortest route through a corner isn't necessarily the fastest. Most drivers shorten the corner so they would use less throttle, Vettel on the other hand is willing to risk powering off a track or into a wall to gain a tenth or two. One thing I noticed about him over the years is that he brakes earlier and harder than anybody while the car is in a straight line, then he does a little trail braking to help get the car turned into the corner, by doing this he is often on full throttle sooner than any of the other top guys and carries immense speed on the exit.


The driving style you have just described sounds more like Webber in the first half of 2010. Vettel couldn't make the same adaptation, hence Webber was able to get the better of him at tracks like Barcelona and Monaco. Advantage swung back to Vettel when they introduced the off throttle EBD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Over the last three years Vettel is the best qualifier.

Thats not the question though


No, but it's the answer :nod:

Not to this particular question though ;)

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 6040
I see some Alonso and Lewis fans are bitter that Vettel has the quali king title in many people's eyes.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1006
There's no way to be certain but I think its a safe assumption now to say that Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are more or less the same in quali. Alonso might just be a touch behind but still clear of anyone else, save Rosberg. Stats ?? I don't know. I personally use stats as just a guideline. Webber has been quite good in quali driving against other teammates so a direct comparison like that is unfair because Massa has been in poor form and Button has been poor at quali for most of his career.

I just go with my gut feeling with these things. It says that Vettel is great in quali despite having the best car. It also says Rosberg is very good at quali but I am about to find out pretty soon about that.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

It all depends on how you view the question. The way I read it, it isn't about whether he was the qualifying master of 2012, but rather does his qualifying record in 2012 effect the perception prior to the start of last season as the best qualifier in the field.

After his qualiying record in 2010, and especially in 2011 Vettel was being hailed as the best on the grid on Saturday. Then when he struggled some at the start of the year some saw that as tarnishing his reputation in that regard, saying that he was clearly outshone by Mark until the car came good after the summer break. What I was pointing out is that although last year was closer between them than it was in previous years Seb still out qualified Mark more often, frequently by several positions, and when he didn't it was rarely by more than 2 positions.

Yes Vettel came out on top but it was quite close between the two of them, too close for it to be said that Vettel was the 2012 qualifying master in particular when Hamilton outpoled him

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
Covalent wrote:
I see some Alonso and Lewis fans are bitter that Vettel has the quali king title in many people's eyes.

Based on 2012?

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 11:47 pm
Posts: 917
On the qualifying master thing, I don’t think you can compare different era’s.
At the time when Ayrton was driving the car could be put in full qualifying spec with wafer thin discs, a grenade of an engine, a set up for just one fast lap & tyres made of gorilla snot. Ayrton always went for pole whereas a lot of the others concentrated on race set up, Alain comes to mind. Ayrton would then revert to his team mates race set up. Don’t misunderstand, Ayrton was blindingly fast.
If that qualifying system had remained in place I believe Michael would have had nearer to 100 poles.
You had times when you had to qualify with the tyres you had to do the whole race, with the tyres you had to start the race on, the fuel load you had to had to start race on & so on up till the system in use today.
Teams today tend to work to the car & drivers strengths by maybe not pushing for pole but having a great set up & gearing or going for pole & hoping to make & maintain a gap with good strategy & tyre management.
So with the different formats over the years it’s difficult to conclude who could be the qualifying master.
Statistically Fangio is the master having been on pole for 56% of his races.

_________________
Champions are made from something they have deep inside of them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have the skill & the will but the will must be stronger than the skill. Muhammad Ali


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:06 am
Posts: 2334
No doubt Vettel and Hamilton are really great qualifiers, and Sebastians many, last lap poles have been amazing.

But Alonso has not had the fastest car since 2007. This colours/clouds judgement of his quali speed. I can't believe he is not up there with the other two. Having the fastest car does wonders for a driver's image and for our perceptions.

_________________
http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 5104
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

Quote:
Turkey was round 7, Silverstone round 8.


And? You're trying to make a point about not having a good car. That Mclaren wasn't good in Turkey and Silverstone.

You keep on dodging my question. Please answer it this time:
Quote:
Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 5239
Nobodys mentioned Maldanado yet.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 8074
POBRatings wrote:
No doubt Vettel and Hamilton are really great qualifiers, and Sebastians many, last lap poles have been amazing.

But Alonso has not had the fastest car since 2007. This colours/clouds judgement of his quali speed. I can't believe he is not up there with the other two. Having the fastest car does wonders for a driver's image and for our perceptions.

Exactly

_________________
PFI Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place

2014: Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AdsBot [Google], Carondimonio, jrwb6e, travanx and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group