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I agree with posters who reckon Alonso and Hamitlon would have done about the same as Vettel in the Red Bulls.
And with those who say Senna was exceptional in qualifying.

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I know this is a typical armchair expert stuff. But i can't help but say so, he is usually in control but he does sometimes go a bit wide, I am no racing driver and just because he does things differently it by no means prove he is wrong/slower. so i could be wrong, but when i watch an onboard from Lewis and an onboard from Seb i get the feeling Lewis would be a lot better than him over one lap. just my take on things

Going wide isn't always bad, you are trying to carry as much speed as possible through a corner, the shortest route through a corner isn't necessarily the fastest. Most drivers shorten the corner so they would use less throttle, Vettel on the other hand is willing to risk powering off a track or into a wall to gain a tenth or two. One thing I noticed about him over the years is that he brakes earlier and harder than anybody while the car is in a straight line, then he does a little trail braking to help get the car turned into the corner, by doing this he is often on full throttle sooner than any of the other top guys and carries immense speed on the exit.

This is why I rate those two as 1a & 1b. I don't think either has a clear edge over the other in this regard. Given equal machinery they would swap poles often, and probably rarely would one out do the other by a large margin. Who came out ahead at the end of the season might come down to who had more tracks that suits him on the schedule.

He would still have been easily on pole

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The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?

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You need a fast car to put it on P1.

By your logic, where was Hamiltons qualifying ability in H1 '09?

I wouldn't expect him to be on pole but he was getting regularly beaten by Webber, once Red Bull started putting more downforce on the car again to the point where once again it was superior then Vettel once again came to the fore

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NO. Vettel had the best car, which helped him win poles.

I think what makes Vettel a standout qualifier is that if his car is capable of being on pole he will always put it on pole. He always delivers when under huge amounts of pressure. Sure he had some poor quali performances in 2012 but, in my eyes, that was not because he was lacking or the car was lacking any particular speed, it was because the set up of the car wasn't right for him to deliver a quick time, I think Monaco is a clear example of this and in the race he came alive.

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It's too general of a conclusion given that there are so many people on here who belittle everything Mark does in that car, qualifying included.

Anyway, by using the X:Y method, Mark could qualify P7, Vettel might qualify P6, but that's a point to Vettel that people will put towards him being a 'qualifying master' despite the fact that P6 is pretty woeful in a RBR (let's face it, it is). You need to have a look at where he qualified relative to everyone, not just his teammate. Everyone knows that Mark isn't thaaaaaaaaat great, so it's naive to compare Vettel's results to Mark's.

In fact it's funny that everyone will repulse Mark being compared to Vettel, but love to compare Vettel to Mark (that's not a shot at you specifically).

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Yes yes, that's the same old rehashed mantra we keep on hearing.

Hamilton was beaten by Kovalainen in '09 in quite a few qualification sessions too. I repeat: you come up with H1 2012 for Vettel to prove anything, I ask you then what H1 2009 told you about Hamilton.

The car was lacking its superior downforce, its as simple as that

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+1

Vettel is like clockwork and delivers, I belive that's part off why Lewis freaked out in 2011.

You are asking the wrong question. In terms of being a "qualifying master", the question should be:

With the faster and more balanced car at the start of the season, why did Hamilton get only the same number of poles as Vettel prior to the break?

Where was Hamilton's qualifying when Vettel was clearly struggling with his car in the first half of the season? Why couldn't he step in and take every pole instead of taking only 3 - the same number as Vettel by the break?

To answer your question, Vettel isn't going to regularly pole when he struggles with his car. But he still managed 3. That is what a master does. Now your turn to answer. Hamilton wasn't similarly struggling - why wasn't he able to put on a master class in the way Vettel had in past seasons?

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Hamilton was the best qualifyer 2012

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"Everything you can imagine is real." Pablo Picasso

Over the last three years Vettel is the best qualifier.

This
Is
Sanity

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‘Ayrton had taken pole and now Alain said to me: “where the f*** did he find that time? How the hell can he be that quick?” In the corner, Senna…he looked up and winked at me. Ayrton had a look in his eye that said, “I’ve done it.”
Jo Ramírez

Heikki also beat Hamilton in qualifying when the McLaren was quick, however whats surprised me when looking back at the 2009 season is that in the early races when presumably the McLaren was at its poorest Hamilton was consistently outqualifying Heikki.

With Vettel it was different, at the start of last season when the Red Bull was an upper midfield qualifier he was getting beaten by Webber so what he would have made of the 2009 McLaren i don't know?

However it has to be said in the races i was very impressed by Vettel, he often finished much higher then his grid start, often beating Webber despite Webber outqualifying him, but that in effect points to someone underqualifying the car really?

Then if you look at the season as a whole with the Red Bull not being the overall fastest car of 2010 or 2011, Vettel wasn't able to dominate Webber in qualifying and gave second best to Hamilton, so its a case of give Vettel the fastest car then he's the best qualifier.

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Kovalainen outqualified Hamilton in Australia, Turkey, UK, Monaco?



Maybe the car suited Webbers style a bit better, who knows what would have been at Mclaren? Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?

Well Hamilton actually managed to get 4 poles before the break, but a clumsy mechanic lost him one of those, hardly his fault. After Canada the team lost their way for 3 races, ask Jenson Button how easy the car was to drive even before Canada.

The Red Bull itself had rid itself of its early season issues from Monaco onwards (Webber, pole and win), and was as competitve as the McLaren thereafter.

The second half of the season the pole count was 4-3 to Hamilton, and looking how Webber finished the season off in qualifying, 2, 1, 2, 2, 3 and 3, its fair to say that Vettel had a fair crack at beating Hamilton.

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Thats not the question though

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First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1, Turkey was round 7, Silverstone round 8.

Regarding Webber its known he couldn't get a handle on driving a car with EBD

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But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

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No, but it's the answer

It all depends on how you view the question. The way I read it, it isn't about whether he was the qualifying master of 2012, but rather does his qualifying record in 2012 effect the perception prior to the start of last season as the best qualifier in the field.

After his qualiying record in 2010, and especially in 2011 Vettel was being hailed as the best on the grid on Saturday. Then when he struggled some at the start of the year some saw that as tarnishing his reputation in that regard, saying that he was clearly outshone by Mark until the car came good after the summer break. What I was pointing out is that although last year was closer between them than it was in previous years Seb still out qualified Mark more often, frequently by several positions, and when he didn't it was rarely by more than 2 positions.

See, you are just as bad as me analyzing driving styles

I just wish he gets a properly fast bench-marking teammate to measure up against. Like Hamilton with Button and Alonso.

Your first line is simply not true. Singapore 12, Korea 12, Monaco 12, Nurburgring 11, Silverstone 11, Spa 10, Singapore 10, Barcelona 10 are all examples of times he's had a car capable of qualifying on
pole but failed to deliver in Q3.

The driving style you have just described sounds more like Webber in the first half of 2010. Vettel couldn't make the same adaptation, hence Webber was able to get the better of him at tracks like Barcelona and Monaco. Advantage swung back to Vettel when they introduced the off throttle EBD.

Not to this particular question though

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I see some Alonso and Lewis fans are bitter that Vettel has the quali king title in many people's eyes.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Rosberg - Bottas

There's no way to be certain but I think its a safe assumption now to say that Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are more or less the same in quali. Alonso might just be a touch behind but still clear of anyone else, save Rosberg. Stats ?? I don't know. I personally use stats as just a guideline. Webber has been quite good in quali driving against other teammates so a direct comparison like that is unfair because Massa has been in poor form and Button has been poor at quali for most of his career.

I just go with my gut feeling with these things. It says that Vettel is great in quali despite having the best car. It also says Rosberg is very good at quali but I am about to find out pretty soon about that.

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Yes Vettel came out on top but it was quite close between the two of them, too close for it to be said that Vettel was the 2012 qualifying master in particular when Hamilton outpoled him

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Based on 2012?

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On the qualifying master thing, I don’t think you can compare different era’s.
At the time when Ayrton was driving the car could be put in full qualifying spec with wafer thin discs, a grenade of an engine, a set up for just one fast lap & tyres made of gorilla snot. Ayrton always went for pole whereas a lot of the others concentrated on race set up, Alain comes to mind. Ayrton would then revert to his team mates race set up. Don’t misunderstand, Ayrton was blindingly fast.
If that qualifying system had remained in place I believe Michael would have had nearer to 100 poles.
You had times when you had to qualify with the tyres you had to do the whole race, with the tyres you had to start the race on, the fuel load you had to had to start race on & so on up till the system in use today.
Teams today tend to work to the car & drivers strengths by maybe not pushing for pole but having a great set up & gearing or going for pole & hoping to make & maintain a gap with good strategy & tyre management.
So with the different formats over the years it’s difficult to conclude who could be the qualifying master.
Statistically Fangio is the master having been on pole for 56% of his races.

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No doubt Vettel and Hamilton are really great qualifiers, and Sebastians many, last lap poles have been amazing.

But Alonso has not had the fastest car since 2007. This colours/clouds judgement of his quali speed. I can't believe he is not up there with the other two. Having the fastest car does wonders for a driver's image and for our perceptions.

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Crashing out surely is a bad performance.



And? You're trying to make a point about not having a good car. That Mclaren wasn't good in Turkey and Silverstone.

You keep on dodging my question. Please answer it this time:

Nobodys mentioned Maldanado yet.

Exactly

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