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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

It all depends on how you view the question. The way I read it, it isn't about whether he was the qualifying master of 2012, but rather does his qualifying record in 2012 effect the perception prior to the start of last season as the best qualifier in the field.

After his qualiying record in 2010, and especially in 2011 Vettel was being hailed as the best on the grid on Saturday. Then when he struggled some at the start of the year some saw that as tarnishing his reputation in that regard, saying that he was clearly outshone by Mark until the car came good after the summer break. What I was pointing out is that although last year was closer between them than it was in previous years Seb still out qualified Mark more often, frequently by several positions, and when he didn't it was rarely by more than 2 positions.

Yes Vettel came out on top but it was quite close between the two of them, too close for it to be said that Vettel was the 2012 qualifying master in particular when Hamilton outpoled him

I'm not saying that Vettel was the best qualifier in 2012 as that's not what I took the question to be. I said that I don't think that not being the best last year has changed my perception of him being 1a & 1b with Hamilton.

And if you do look solely at 2012 Lewis' average starting position was only about .75 better than Vettel with one more pole despite Red Bull starting off the season a bit on the back foot.

In my opinion in the mythical "equal machinery" those 2 would have little to choose from between them over a season. Look no further than Austin last year. The cars were fairly equal at that point and qualifying was close, in the race Vettel couldn't pull away and once Lewis got past he couldn't pull a gap either. It'd probably come down to who had more tracks on the schedule that favored them. Lewis would do better at Silverstone and Canada, Seb at Adu Dhabi and Valencia with the rest being a crap shoot.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:05 pm 
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TheThirdTenor wrote:
Gaz wrote:
I think what makes Vettel a standout qualifier is that if his car is capable of being on pole he will always put it on pole. He always delivers when under huge amounts of pressure. Sure he had some poor quali performances in 2012 but, in my eyes, that was not because he was lacking or the car was lacking any particular speed, it was because the set up of the car wasn't right for him to deliver a quick time, I think Monaco is a clear example of this and in the race he came alive.


Your first line is simply not true. Singapore 12, Korea 12, Monaco 12, Nurburgring 11, Silverstone 11, Spa 10, Singapore 10, Barcelona 10 are all examples of times he's had a car capable of qualifying on
pole but failed to deliver in Q3.


I believe my point stands, 2012 Singapore Hamilton and the McLaren were just simply better in every way and I have already pointed out at the times where he was on pole, i.e. Monaco 2012 that was because he was not comfortable with car's setup, just a Hamilton was at Spa 2012. When he is comfortable with the car he will put it on pole, Nurburgring 2011 is another example of bad setup, he was off all weekend.

And please, take my previous post with a little pinch of salt.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:10 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

Quote:
Turkey was round 7, Silverstone round 8.


And? You're trying to make a point about not having a good car. That Mclaren wasn't good in Turkey and Silverstone.

You keep on dodging my question. Please answer it this time:
Quote:
Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?

What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two, whereas we saw last season when the Red Bull wasn't at its best Webber started to outqualify Vettel more often than not.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Nobodys mentioned Maldanado yet.

I think he needs to be up against someone better than Senna

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two


No?
Second half of 2009 when the Mclaren came good, Kovalainen beat Hamilton just once in 9 races compared to 3 times in the 7 preceding races (I'll drop the Q where Hamilton had car troubles). And that one time Kovi beat Hamilton in H2 2009 was in Brazil during a highly non-typical qualifying session.

Also, look at their actual qualifying positions in the second half of 2009. In quite a number of races Kovalainen was way, way off Hamilton.

Based on this, I'd say it's very wrong to state that "the dynamic didn't change". It did, pretty obviously.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:37 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

I'm sure there's plenty of drivers that can outqualify Hamilton after he has crashed out in Q1, i'm not too sure what that proves though?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

I'm sure there's plenty of drivers that can outqualify Hamilton after he has crashed out in Q1, i'm not too sure what that proves though?


Maybe that Hamilton crashed knowing he had to go absolutely flat out with that bad car to qualify well, and committed a mistake?
No matter how you turn it, it is an example of Heikki outperforming Hamilton with that bad Mclaren, which makes it 3 times out of 7 races.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Nobodys mentioned Maldanado yet.


I think Maldonado is an excellent qualifier, his record against Senna is brutal and Senna is no slouch. but his record with Rubens (yes he was a rookie but Rubens isn't the best qualifier either) doesn't say how good he is exactly and it confuses me a bit.

But my gut says he is a quali specialist and he may even be better than Lewis over one lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:08 pm 
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3 times?
So you're happy to include a session when Hamilton did not set a time as he was released from the pits too late? I mean honestly.

Ps - fuel corrected Heikki was as fast as Lewis in 2008

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

Quote:
Turkey was round 7, Silverstone round 8.


And? You're trying to make a point about not having a good car. That Mclaren wasn't good in Turkey and Silverstone.

You keep on dodging my question. Please answer it this time:
Quote:
Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?

What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two, whereas we saw last season when the Red Bull wasn't at its best Webber started to outqualify Vettel more often than not.


Didn't Whitmarsh go on record saying that Heikki frequently outqualified Lewis fuel-corrected?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You are asking the wrong question. In terms of being a "qualifying master", the question should be:

With the faster and more balanced car at the start of the season, why did Hamilton get only the same number of poles as Vettel prior to the break?

Where was Hamilton's qualifying when Vettel was clearly struggling with his car in the first half of the season? Why couldn't he step in and take every pole instead of taking only 3 - the same number as Vettel by the break?

To answer your question, Vettel isn't going to regularly pole when he struggles with his car. But he still managed 3. That is what a master does. Now your turn to answer. Hamilton wasn't similarly struggling - why wasn't he able to put on a master class in the way Vettel had in past seasons?

Well Hamilton actually managed to get 4 poles before the break, but a clumsy mechanic lost him one of those, hardly his fault.


Even if we gave him four poles, that is not putting on a Master Class for those 11 races the way Vettel did in 2011 or 2010. Vettel was disadvantaged because his car wasn't 'fastest' - and so where was Hamilton? Why couldn't he step in with his fastest car and get poles every race like Vettel?

Quote:
After Canada the team lost their way for 3 races, ask Jenson Button how easy the car was to drive even before Canada.


So what. Hamilton doesn't need the 'fastest' or 'best' car to pole - only Vettel does. So why then couldn't Hamilton pull out those other 7 poles in the races prior to the break? Why could he only manage 4?

Quote:
The Red Bull itself had rid itself of its early season issues from Monaco onwards (Webber, pole and win), and was as competitve as the McLaren thereafter.


So when the Red Bull is as competitive as the Macca, Vettel wins? Because the tally after Monaco to the break was this:

Hamilton: 2, 2, 8, 7, 1
Vettel: 1, 1, 4, 2, 3

That would be Vettel by 9...

Quote:
The second half of the season the pole count was 4-3 to Hamilton, and looking how Webber finished the season off in qualifying, 2, 1, 2, 2, 3 and 3, its fair to say that Vettel had a fair crack at beating Hamilton.


Well that is nice for Hamilton, who led at season's end by 1 pole (not near enough to earn him the title of master - although both he and Seb did brilliantly) However, it doesn't answer the question as to why Hamilton could not put on a master class performance like Vettel did in 2010 or 2011 when he had the fastest or an equivalent car... especially when his presumed competition, Vettel, was struggling...?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:57 am 
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So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:02 am 
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Petruchio wrote:
So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


Rating Button higher than Webber in quali can also be interpreted as absurd by many. However, I do agree with the general logic of your post.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:23 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


Rating Button higher than Webber in quali can also be interpreted as absurd by many. However, I do agree with the general logic of your post.


I'm not sure if Hamilton deserves the crown either but I completely disagree with placing him lower than Vettel (of course based on 2012 alone).

As it comes to Webber vs Button. The problem is that Webber is 36 already and I don’t believe he is as fast as he was. We are talking 0,2 -0,4 seconds on a 1 minute 30 sec laps. Anybody who was a professional sportsman or athlete knows what I’m talking about. But I agree he might be a little faster than Button, he might.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:52 am 
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First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:02 pm 
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Petruchio wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


Rating Button higher than Webber in quali can also be interpreted as absurd by many. However, I do agree with the general logic of your post.


I'm not sure if Hamilton deserves the crown either but I completely disagree with placing him lower than Vettel (of course based on 2012 alone).

As it comes to Webber vs Button. The problem is that Webber is 36 already and I don’t believe he is as fast as he was. We are talking 0,2 -0,4 seconds on a 1 minute 30 sec laps. Anybody who was a professional sportsman or athlete knows what I’m talking about. But I agree he might be a little faster than Button, he might.


Webber is atleasrt half a sec clear of Button - even at this age.

Whatever you do - dont compare Button in respect to raw speed to anyone - other than that he is a good racer.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:03 pm 
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lamo wrote:
First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.


LOLOLOL

Alonso was frequently beaten by post accident MAssa as was Hamilton by the no grip

If its teammate wars we are talking - Vettel has both of them eating out of his hands - Yes both in Qualifying and races !


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:30 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


Rating Button higher than Webber in quali can also be interpreted as absurd by many. However, I do agree with the general logic of your post.


I'm not sure if Hamilton deserves the crown either but I completely disagree with placing him lower than Vettel (of course based on 2012 alone).

As it comes to Webber vs Button. The problem is that Webber is 36 already and I don’t believe he is as fast as he was. We are talking 0,2 -0,4 seconds on a 1 minute 30 sec laps. Anybody who was a professional sportsman or athlete knows what I’m talking about. But I agree he might be a little faster than Button, he might.


Webber is atleasrt half a sec clear of Button - even at this age.

Whatever you do - dont compare Button in respect to raw speed to anyone - other than that he is a good racer.


How did you come up with that? Button's average starting postion's was better than barichello's in 2007 and 2008 and slighty worse in 2009. We all know barichello was a very good qualifier (proven that when he was against Schumi in his peak).
Any stats to prove your point? or just personal belief?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Quote:
How did you come up with that? Button's average starting postion's was better than barichello's in 2007 and 2008 and slighty worse in 2009. We all know barichello was a very good qualifier (proven that when he was against Schumi in his peak).
Any stats to prove your point? or just personal belief?


Well half sec is just a number I used to make a point that Webber and Button arent close.
Button whose achilles feel is Qualifying and Webber who is a specialist in that lead me to beleive that.
And I dont agree that Barichello is any great shakes in Quali (was often a sec behind Schumi) - and him beating Button once he got the correct brake pedals says it all !

Button is much better in race management tho


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Raggedman siad it well when he reckoned that in mythical equal cars Vettel and Hamilton would be virtually equal, and that circuits would decide the quali outcome.

Imo the same would be true far almost all the great drivers: their competitivess and will to be first
was/is always strong in quali; Senna, Clark, mansell, Piquet, Fangio, Moss and Acscari were all know to 'want' pole. I'm sure Alonso would be the same if his car was as fast as Vettels and Hamiltons.

Perhaps Prost and Senna were more concerned with race set-up than the others?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:17 pm 
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lamo wrote:
First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.

Do you think Alonso and Hamilton are superior qualifiers to Vettel?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:24 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
lamo wrote:
First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.


LOLOLOL

Alonso was frequently beaten by post accident MAssa as was Hamilton by the no grip

If its teammate wars we are talking - Vettel has both of them eating out of his hands - Yes both in Qualifying and races !


Alonso was out qualified 3 times by Massa ( and that's including Monza). Hamilton was outqualified 3 times by Button. Vettel was outqualified 9 times by Webber. These are the facts.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:26 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Quote:
How did you come up with that? Button's average starting postion's was better than barichello's in 2007 and 2008 and slighty worse in 2009. We all know barichello was a very good qualifier (proven that when he was against Schumi in his peak).
Any stats to prove your point? or just personal belief?


Well half sec is just a number I used to make a point that Webber and Button arent close.
Button whose achilles feel is Qualifying and Webber who is a specialist in that lead me to beleive that.
And I dont agree that Barichello is any great shakes in Quali (was often a sec behind Schumi) - and him beating Button once he got the correct brake pedals says it all !

Button is much better in race management tho


Tbf Button at least managed a pole in his BAR. Webber couldn't even put the Williams on pole (and Heidfeld could!)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:59 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

It all depends on how you view the question. The way I read it, it isn't about whether he was the qualifying master of 2012, but rather does his qualifying record in 2012 effect the perception prior to the start of last season as the best qualifier in the field.

After his qualiying record in 2010, and especially in 2011 Vettel was being hailed as the best on the grid on Saturday. Then when he struggled some at the start of the year some saw that as tarnishing his reputation in that regard, saying that he was clearly outshone by Mark until the car came good after the summer break. What I was pointing out is that although last year was closer between them than it was in previous years Seb still out qualified Mark more often, frequently by several positions, and when he didn't it was rarely by more than 2 positions.

Yes Vettel came out on top but it was quite close between the two of them, too close for it to be said that Vettel was the 2012 qualifying master in particular when Hamilton outpoled him

I'm not saying that Vettel was the best qualifier in 2012 as that's not what I took the question to be. I said that I don't think that not being the best last year has changed my perception of him being 1a & 1b with Hamilton.

And if you do look solely at 2012 Lewis' average starting position was only about .75 better than Vettel with one more pole despite Red Bull starting off the season a bit on the back foot.

In my opinion in the mythical "equal machinery" those 2 would have little to choose from between them over a season. Look no further than Austin last year. The cars were fairly equal at that point and qualifying was close, in the race Vettel couldn't pull away and once Lewis got past he couldn't pull a gap either. It'd probably come down to who had more tracks on the schedule that favored them. Lewis would do better at Silverstone and Canada, Seb at Adu Dhabi and Valencia with the rest being a crap shoot.

But the question specifies 2012 only, i'm not sure how you worked out the qualifying average, you give Hamilton only 7 poles so you include all penalties as well which factors things in not relevant to driver performance.

On the whole i agree i wouldn't like to say which one is better, Vettel has been incredible impressive in 2010 and 2011 but so has his car.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:03 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two


No?
Second half of 2009 when the Mclaren came good, Kovalainen beat Hamilton just once in 9 races compared to 3 times in the 7 preceding races (I'll drop the Q where Hamilton had car troubles). And that one time Kovi beat Hamilton in H2 2009 was in Brazil during a highly non-typical qualifying session.

Also, look at their actual qualifying positions in the second half of 2009. In quite a number of races Kovalainen was way, way off Hamilton.

Based on this, I'd say it's very wrong to state that "the dynamic didn't change". It did, pretty obviously.

Well i've not looked in detail at the second half of 2009, but this was a time when updates were coming through thick and fast, sometimes Hamilton had them first and i know at times Heikki struggled with some updates.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:13 pm 
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TheThirdTenor wrote:
F1yer wrote:
lamo wrote:
First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.


LOLOLOL

Alonso was frequently beaten by post accident MAssa as was Hamilton by the no grip

If its teammate wars we are talking - Vettel has both of them eating out of his hands - Yes both in Qualifying and races !


Alonso was out qualified 3 times by Massa ( and that's including Monza). Hamilton was outqualified 3 times by Button. Vettel was outqualified 9 times by Webber. These are the facts.


Alonso 17-3 Massa
Hamilton 17-3 Button

Vettel 11-9 - Webber
55% of the time ahead, or as we say around he "eating out of ones hand" :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:14 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

I'm sure there's plenty of drivers that can outqualify Hamilton after he has crashed out in Q1, i'm not too sure what that proves though?


Maybe that Hamilton crashed knowing he had to go absolutely flat out with that bad car to qualify well, and committed a mistake?
No matter how you turn it, it is an example of Heikki outperforming Hamilton with that bad Mclaren, which makes it 3 times out of 7 races.

No the McLaren was quick around Monaco, some thought Hamilton favourite for pole, it had good mechanical grip which suited Monaco, he was under no pressure in Q1 just a simple lapse, Heikki was 3rd fastest in Q1 and Q2.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:23 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
First 10 races of 2012 Vettel and Webber were even with each out qualifying the other 5 times. Vettel had three poles in those races, Webber had one.

When Webber out qualified Vettel it was twice by 1 position, once by 2, once by 5, and once by 8.

When Vettel out qualified Webber it was once by 2, once by 3, once by 4, once by 6, and once by 18.

The last one is obviously an outlier, but you still can't really say that Vettel was put to shame by Mark in the first half last year. Even if you limit it to the first five races it's only 3-2 in Marks favor, with him beating Seb by 1, 1, and 5 while being beaten by 2, and 4 positions.

But how does this stand with Vettel being the 2012 qualifying master?

It all depends on how you view the question. The way I read it, it isn't about whether he was the qualifying master of 2012, but rather does his qualifying record in 2012 effect the perception prior to the start of last season as the best qualifier in the field.

After his qualiying record in 2010, and especially in 2011 Vettel was being hailed as the best on the grid on Saturday. Then when he struggled some at the start of the year some saw that as tarnishing his reputation in that regard, saying that he was clearly outshone by Mark until the car came good after the summer break. What I was pointing out is that although last year was closer between them than it was in previous years Seb still out qualified Mark more often, frequently by several positions, and when he didn't it was rarely by more than 2 positions.

Yes Vettel came out on top but it was quite close between the two of them, too close for it to be said that Vettel was the 2012 qualifying master in particular when Hamilton outpoled him

I'm not saying that Vettel was the best qualifier in 2012 as that's not what I took the question to be. I said that I don't think that not being the best last year has changed my perception of him being 1a & 1b with Hamilton.

And if you do look solely at 2012 Lewis' average starting position was only about .75 better than Vettel with one more pole despite Red Bull starting off the season a bit on the back foot.

In my opinion in the mythical "equal machinery" those 2 would have little to choose from between them over a season. Look no further than Austin last year. The cars were fairly equal at that point and qualifying was close, in the race Vettel couldn't pull away and once Lewis got past he couldn't pull a gap either. It'd probably come down to who had more tracks on the schedule that favored them. Lewis would do better at Silverstone and Canada, Seb at Adu Dhabi and Valencia with the rest being a crap shoot.


Agree with everything in this post besides giving Seb Abu Dhabi, in my opinion both of them around that track are demons and it is an excellent circuit for both of them. I'd give Seb Valencia and Japan.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:24 pm 
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lamo wrote:
3 times?
So you're happy to include a session when Hamilton did not set a time as he was released from the pits too late? I mean honestly.

Ps - fuel corrected Heikki was as fast as Lewis in 2008

Well actually Heikki wasn't but he certainly showed himself to be a very good qualifier not just in 2008 but during his F1 career, he gave Hamilton a run for his money in 2008 qualifying thats for sure

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two


No?
Second half of 2009 when the Mclaren came good, Kovalainen beat Hamilton just once in 9 races compared to 3 times in the 7 preceding races (I'll drop the Q where Hamilton had car troubles). And that one time Kovi beat Hamilton in H2 2009 was in Brazil during a highly non-typical qualifying session.

Also, look at their actual qualifying positions in the second half of 2009. In quite a number of races Kovalainen was way, way off Hamilton.

Based on this, I'd say it's very wrong to state that "the dynamic didn't change". It did, pretty obviously.

Well i've not looked in detail at the second half of 2009, but this was a time when updates were coming through thick and fast, sometimes Hamilton had them first and i know at times Heikki struggled with some updates.


Sorry but that's just not OK. The car came good, the dynamic definitely changed. Just admit that already. Seems you have a terrible problem saying someone else could be right, it's always the same discussing with you.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton didn't set a time in Australia Q2, car failure?, and crashed out in Monaco Q1,


Crashing out surely is a bad performance.

Quote:
Turkey was round 7, Silverstone round 8.


And? You're trying to make a point about not having a good car. That Mclaren wasn't good in Turkey and Silverstone.

You keep on dodging my question. Please answer it this time:
Quote:
Is Hamilton any lesser a qualifier because Kovalainen beat him a few times in a bad car?

What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two, whereas we saw last season when the Red Bull wasn't at its best Webber started to outqualify Vettel more often than not.


Didn't Whitmarsh go on record saying that Heikki frequently outqualified Lewis fuel-corrected?

Yes Heikki did but Hamilton overall came out on top

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:32 pm 
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TheThirdTenor wrote:
F1yer wrote:
lamo wrote:
First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.


LOLOLOL

Alonso was frequently beaten by post accident MAssa as was Hamilton by the no grip

If its teammate wars we are talking - Vettel has both of them eating out of his hands - Yes both in Qualifying and races !


Alonso was out qualified 3 times by Massa ( and that's including Monza). Hamilton was outqualified 3 times by Button. Vettel was outqualified 9 times by Webber. These are the facts.


Webber is also a stronger driver than Button and Massa.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:04 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
Hamilton/Macca was one of the best qualifying combos to come along - we are talking serious talent and formidable ability meets top of the line machinery.

Then Vettel/RBR came along and put on a master class.

All the excuses and reasons can't explain away how Vettel/RBR have lived up to their potential. It isn't that the combination is capable - we know that, we saw it with our own eyes. But there is a world of difference between what "can be done" and what "is done". Yes, Seb/RBR is the best qualifying combination on the grid right now - hands down.

It reminds me of Hamilton/Macca's 2007 season. That was another example of what can be done actually getting done. It was something one can only dream about - usually. But the combination was obviously capable of it and more importantly, man + machine pulled it off. Yet what did we have to listen to afterward? "Well any rookie could do that in a top car". Well no, any rookie couldn't, more importantly, Hamilton did it.

That is exactly the way I hear arguments that try to belittle Vettel's tremendous qualifying achievements. I find them very cringe worthy.

The Red Bull was out and out the fastest car in 2010 and 2011, last year it wasn't and Vettel got beat in qualifying by Hamilton, where was Vettel's qualifying ability in the first half of last season when he often struggled just to get into Q3, sometimes failing?


You are asking the wrong question. In terms of being a "qualifying master", the question should be:

With the faster and more balanced car at the start of the season, why did Hamilton get only the same number of poles as Vettel prior to the break?

Where was Hamilton's qualifying when Vettel was clearly struggling with his car in the first half of the season? Why couldn't he step in and take every pole instead of taking only 3 - the same number as Vettel by the break?

To answer your question, Vettel isn't going to regularly pole when he struggles with his car. But he still managed 3. That is what a master does. Now your turn to answer. Hamilton wasn't similarly struggling - why wasn't he able to put on a master class in the way Vettel had in past seasons?

Well Hamilton actually managed to get 4 poles before the break, but a clumsy mechanic lost him one of those, hardly his fault.


Even if we gave him four poles, that is not putting on a Master Class for those 11 races the way Vettel did in 2011 or 2010. Vettel was disadvantaged because his car wasn't 'fastest' - and so where was Hamilton? Why couldn't he step in with his fastest car and get poles every race like Vettel?

Quote:
After Canada the team lost their way for 3 races, ask Jenson Button how easy the car was to drive even before Canada.


So what. Hamilton doesn't need the 'fastest' or 'best' car to pole - only Vettel does. So why then couldn't Hamilton pull out those other 7 poles in the races prior to the break? Why could he only manage 4?

Quote:
The Red Bull itself had rid itself of its early season issues from Monaco onwards (Webber, pole and win), and was as competitve as the McLaren thereafter.


So when the Red Bull is as competitive as the Macca, Vettel wins? Because the tally after Monaco to the break was this:

Hamilton: 2, 2, 8, 7, 1
Vettel: 1, 1, 4, 2, 3

That would be Vettel by 9...

Quote:
The second half of the season the pole count was 4-3 to Hamilton, and looking how Webber finished the season off in qualifying, 2, 1, 2, 2, 3 and 3, its fair to say that Vettel had a fair crack at beating Hamilton.


Well that is nice for Hamilton, who led at season's end by 1 pole (not near enough to earn him the title of master - although both he and Seb did brilliantly) However, it doesn't answer the question as to why Hamilton could not put on a master class performance like Vettel did in 2010 or 2011 when he had the fastest or an equivalent car... especially when his presumed competition, Vettel, was struggling...?

The McLaren was never consistently the fastest car in 2012 it suffered some quite bad dips in form, interesting that you might consider it to be as good as the 2011 Red Bull for instance.

There were 9 races after the break, 2 of these meetings Hamilton had to compete with a defective car, again interesting that you consider the McLaren to be the fastest car in all 9 race meetings.

I used as competitive as an overall view for the remainder of the season, again interesting that you use a sample period of 5 races when the McLaren had its dip in performance that lasted for 3 races.

I see you take the Barcelona pole off Hamilton to say he only finished one pole in front of Vettel, as far as relevant performances of cars go i don't believe Hamilton has ever had a car as good as the 2011 Red Bull, and the 2012 McLaren wasn't consistent enough throughout the season to be considered as good as the 2010 Red Bull

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm 
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lamo wrote:
First thing you have to do is dominate your team mate. Alonso and Hamilton did that in 2012 qualifying. Vettel did not.

Exactly

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:12 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


Rating Button higher than Webber in quali can also be interpreted as absurd by many. However, I do agree with the general logic of your post.


I'm not sure if Hamilton deserves the crown either but I completely disagree with placing him lower than Vettel (of course based on 2012 alone).

As it comes to Webber vs Button. The problem is that Webber is 36 already and I don’t believe he is as fast as he was. We are talking 0,2 -0,4 seconds on a 1 minute 30 sec laps. Anybody who was a professional sportsman or athlete knows what I’m talking about. But I agree he might be a little faster than Button, he might.


Webber is atleasrt half a sec clear of Button - even at this age.

Whatever you do - dont compare Button in respect to raw speed to anyone - other than that he is a good racer.

Ridiculous, half a second?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Petruchio wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
So in 2012 Hamilton is the only driver who made it to q3 in every qualifying (Vettel was eliminated in q2 twice – that alone is enough to not handle him the crown because there is no way RB was at any time 6th fastest car), he has better average starting position (4.3 vs Vettel 5.05) and has a bigger average qualifying gap to his teammate (-0.275s vs Vettel -0.11s; Just to clarify I rate Button higher than Webber in every aspect) and you came up with a theory that “Based on 2012, is Vettel the qualifying master”

Absurd.


Rating Button higher than Webber in quali can also be interpreted as absurd by many. However, I do agree with the general logic of your post.


I'm not sure if Hamilton deserves the crown either but I completely disagree with placing him lower than Vettel (of course based on 2012 alone).

As it comes to Webber vs Button. The problem is that Webber is 36 already and I don’t believe he is as fast as he was. We are talking 0,2 -0,4 seconds on a 1 minute 30 sec laps. Anybody who was a professional sportsman or athlete knows what I’m talking about. But I agree he might be a little faster than Button, he might.


Webber is atleasrt half a sec clear of Button - even at this age.

Whatever you do - dont compare Button in respect to raw speed to anyone - other than that he is a good racer.


How did you come up with that? Button's average starting postion's was better than barichello's in 2007 and 2008 and slighty worse in 2009. We all know barichello was a very good qualifier (proven that when he was against Schumi in his peak).
Any stats to prove your point? or just personal belief?

Barrichello outqualified Maldonado as well

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:15 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
Quote:
How did you come up with that? Button's average starting postion's was better than barichello's in 2007 and 2008 and slighty worse in 2009. We all know barichello was a very good qualifier (proven that when he was against Schumi in his peak).
Any stats to prove your point? or just personal belief?


Well half sec is just a number I used to make a point that Webber and Button arent close.
Button whose achilles feel is Qualifying and Webber who is a specialist in that lead me to beleive that.
And I dont agree that Barichello is any great shakes in Quali (was often a sec behind Schumi) - and him beating Button once he got the correct brake pedals says it all !

Button is much better in race management tho

A second behind Schumacher?

I think some of these figures are just pulled out of thin air?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:42 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What am i dodging, having a bad car didn't change the fact that Hamilton more often than not still outqualified Heikki, it didn't change the dynamic between the two


No?
Second half of 2009 when the Mclaren came good, Kovalainen beat Hamilton just once in 9 races compared to 3 times in the 7 preceding races (I'll drop the Q where Hamilton had car troubles). And that one time Kovi beat Hamilton in H2 2009 was in Brazil during a highly non-typical qualifying session.

Also, look at their actual qualifying positions in the second half of 2009. In quite a number of races Kovalainen was way, way off Hamilton.

Based on this, I'd say it's very wrong to state that "the dynamic didn't change". It did, pretty obviously.

Well i've not looked in detail at the second half of 2009, but this was a time when updates were coming through thick and fast, sometimes Hamilton had them first and i know at times Heikki struggled with some updates.


Sorry but that's just not OK. The car came good, the dynamic definitely changed. Just admit that already. Seems you have a terrible problem saying someone else could be right, it's always the same discussing with you.

Just look at 2008 qualifying in the championship winning McLaren, and look at the qualifying in the first half of 2009 when the McLaren was bad and tell me how anything altered, i believe the qualifying average difference between them was about 0.06s in Hamilton's favour in 2008, in 2009 after Silverstone it was 0.08s in Hamilton's favour. Strangely the next race in Germany saw the updated McLaren, that was the beginning of the turn around, Heikki outqualified Hamilton fuel adjusted.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:41 am 
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Ricciardo also seems like a decent qualifier


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:58 am 
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Barrichello
A second behind Schumacher?

I think some of these figures are just pulled out of thin air?[/quote]

Qualifying

Pos No Driver Constructor Time[1] Gap
1 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:13.306 —
2 3 Juan Pablo Montoya Williams-BMW 1:13.668 +0.362
3 9 Jenson Button BAR-Honda 1:13.674 +0.368
4 6 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1:13.690 +0.384
5 5 David Coulthard McLaren-Mercedes 1:13.821 +0.515
6 8 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:13.874 +0.568
7 7 Jarno Trulli Renault 1:14.134 +0.828
8 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:14.278 +0.972
9 10 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda 1:14.287 +0.981
10 17 Olivier Panis Toyota 1:14.368 +1.062
11 4 Antônio Pizzonia Williams-BMW 1:14.556 +1.250
12 14 Mark Webber Jaguar-Cosworth 1:14.802 +1.496
13 15 Christian Klien Jaguar-Cosworth 1:15.011 +1.705
14 11 Giancarlo Fisichella Sauber-Petronas 1:15.395 +2.089
15 16 Cristiano da Matta Toyota 1:15.454 +2.148
16 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas 1:15.616 +2.310
17 19 Giorgio Pantano Jordan-Ford 1:16.192 +2.886
18 18 Nick Heidfeld Jordan-Ford 1:16.310 +3.004
19 20 Gianmaria Bruni Minardi-Cosworth 1:18.055 +4.749
20 21 Zsolt Baumgartner Minardi-Cosworth 1:18.400 +5.094

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