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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:18 pm 
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If Red Bull had two Webber level drivers in 2011 instead of Vettel, then there's a good chance that Hamilton doesn't lose his head and start crashing everywhere.

Butterfly effect.

I can't dig up the exact statistics but I'm pretty sure that Vettel-Hamilton (in either order) is the most common 1-2 finish in F1 history.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:28 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
If Red Bull had two Webber level drivers in 2011 instead of Vettel, then there's a good chance that Hamilton doesn't lose his head and start crashing everywhere.

Butterfly effect.

I can't dig up the exact statistics but I'm pretty sure that Vettel-Hamilton (in either order) is the most common 1-2 finish in F1 history.

I'd be very surprised if that was true, I'd imagine Hamilton/Rosberg beats it for one, I'd be interested in knowing which is the most common 1-2 combo (in either order) though tbf.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:53 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
If Red Bull had two Webber level drivers in 2011 instead of Vettel, then there's a good chance that Hamilton doesn't lose his head and start crashing everywhere.

Butterfly effect.

I highly doubt that. I don't think Hamilton's issues in 2011 had anything to do with Vettel.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:06 am 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If Red Bull had two Webber level drivers in 2011 instead of Vettel, then there's a good chance that Hamilton doesn't lose his head and start crashing everywhere.

Butterfly effect.

I highly doubt that. I don't think Hamilton's issues in 2011 had anything to do with Vettel.

Actually he flipped out because the Red Bull was that much better and Vettel took a massive points lead, he saw he had no chance of winning the WDC so approached Red Bull for a seat in the Canadian paddock which was quite shocking really as he was contracted to McLaren until 2012, and perhaps asked questions about his mental state, at the time he was also going through a break up with Nicole Scherzinger.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If Red Bull had two Webber level drivers in 2011 instead of Vettel, then there's a good chance that Hamilton doesn't lose his head and start crashing everywhere.

Butterfly effect.

I highly doubt that. I don't think Hamilton's issues in 2011 had anything to do with Vettel.

Actually he flipped out because the Red Bull was that much better and Vettel took a massive points lead, he saw he had no chance of winning the WDC so approached Red Bull for a seat in the Canadian paddock which was quite shocking really as he was contracted to McLaren until 2012, and perhaps asked questions about his mental state, at the time he was also going through a break up with Nicole Scherzinger.


I'm not sure that's the entire story, although his mental state in 2011 and 2012 at times was sometimes odd. I think Button one a lot of friends at Mclaren (especially Whitmarsh) and Hamilton could see it becoming Button's team.

History shows that Hamilton is at his least happy when he feels the team are behind his teammate more than him. 2016 was another example of this. He approached Ferrari as well as Red Bull which suggests a desire to get out of Mclaren trumped any resentment over Vettel (about whom Hamilton had generally spoke of warmly).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:07 pm 
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https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x19hprv

For me this is the best season review the BBC put together in recent years and of interest might be the framing of Vettel's dominant phase to close out his tremendous 2013 season. It makes for stirring viewing!

It can be found at ~35 mins.


Last edited by Invade on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Incredible to think that prior to Invade's post yesterday the Official Vettel thread hadn't had a single entry in a year!



It took me a little while to even find the thread in the first place.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:15 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If Red Bull had two Webber level drivers in 2011 instead of Vettel, then there's a good chance that Hamilton doesn't lose his head and start crashing everywhere.

Butterfly effect.

I highly doubt that. I don't think Hamilton's issues in 2011 had anything to do with Vettel.

Actually he flipped out because the Red Bull was that much better and Vettel took a massive points lead, he saw he had no chance of winning the WDC so approached Red Bull for a seat in the Canadian paddock which was quite shocking really as he was contracted to McLaren until 2012, and perhaps asked questions about his mental state, at the time he was also going through a break up with Nicole Scherzinger.


I'm not sure that's the entire story, although his mental state in 2011 and 2012 at times was sometimes odd. I think Button one a lot of friends at Mclaren (especially Whitmarsh) and Hamilton could see it becoming Button's team.

History shows that Hamilton is at his least happy when he feels the team are behind his teammate more than him. 2016 was another example of this. He approached Ferrari as well as Red Bull which suggests a desire to get out of Mclaren trumped any resentment over Vettel (about whom Hamilton had generally spoke of warmly).

Maybe Hamilton's behaviour in 2011 in part triggered what happened in 2012 with McLaren's seemingly reluctance to fully back him to the title after Button fell out of contention?

I can understand him wanting to join Red Bull but things must have been really bad for him at McLaren for him to consider Ferrari alongside Alonso?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:41 am 
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I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:54 am 
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Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Speedwise I would say he's driven at a high level, I'm guessing the poor level of performance you might be referring to is too many mistakes?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:00 am 
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Yes, for the most part.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:12 am 
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Invade wrote:

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


He made two mistakes in a single race. He clipped the back of Lewis's car in Singapore and instead of accepting his own mistake... he lost control of his emotions and drove in to another driver. There was n IFs BUTs or MAYBEs... he actually purposely drove his car in to another. Something that should have resulted on a black flag. He didn't go for a gap.. he didn't lose a touch of grip... clipping Lewis in the back was a mistake.. ramming another driver.. on purpose..

Only reason he avoided that black flag was because it was at incredibly low speeds... his talk after the race was awkward and reminded me of the LieGate saga.. it was unnecessary, uncomfortable and embarrassing. Funnily enough though.. the LieGate saga became a very big thing..

There is a reason why 2018 is being compared to 2017.. Ferrari for the 2nd season had a massive chance at the title (slightly more so this year than previous). Ferrari have made race strategy mistakes, qualifying tyre choices mistakes and the main driver.. Vettel.. also makes mistakes.

Vettel made more than a few mistakes last year. Like 2017.. he has put a ton of pressure on his shoulders.. after all he is driving for Ferrari. They expect trophies and wins.. unlike RBR back in the day.. who had the same desire but not the same level of expectations. Ferrari, the brand name and the fans all expect results.

2017 a good year for Sebastian Vettel? I don't think his fans nor Ferrari fans will agree with that assessment.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:28 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Invade wrote:

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


He made two mistakes in a single race. He clipped the back of Lewis's car in Singapore and instead of accepting his own mistake... he lost control of his emotions and drove in to another driver. There was n IFs BUTs or MAYBEs... he actually purposely drove his car in to another. Something that should have resulted on a black flag. He didn't go for a gap.. he didn't lose a touch of grip... clipping Lewis in the back was a mistake.. ramming another driver.. on purpose..

Only reason he avoided that black flag was because it was at incredibly low speeds... his talk after the race was awkward and reminded me of the LieGate saga.. it was unnecessary, uncomfortable and embarrassing. Funnily enough though.. the LieGate saga became a very big thing..

There is a reason why 2018 is being compared to 2017.. Ferrari for the 2nd season had a massive chance at the title (slightly more so this year than previous). Ferrari have made race strategy mistakes, qualifying tyre choices mistakes and the main driver.. Vettel.. also makes mistakes.

Vettel made more than a few mistakes last year. Like 2017.. he has put a ton of pressure on his shoulders.. after all he is driving for Ferrari. They expect trophies and wins.. unlike RBR back in the day.. who had the same desire but not the same level of expectations. Ferrari, the brand name and the fans all expect results.

2017 a good year for Sebastian Vettel? I don't think his fans nor Ferrari fans will agree with that assessment.

Except that's total boll**ks. He didn't purposely drive into another car in Singapore.

Unless you're talking about Baku, but if so it's a bit confusing as it was Lewis, not "another driver," so it's a bit hard to follow your post.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:31 am 
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Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Invade wrote:

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


He made two mistakes in a single race. He clipped the back of Lewis's car in Singapore and instead of accepting his own mistake... he lost control of his emotions and drove in to another driver. There was n IFs BUTs or MAYBEs... he actually purposely drove his car in to another. Something that should have resulted on a black flag. He didn't go for a gap.. he didn't lose a touch of grip... clipping Lewis in the back was a mistake.. ramming another driver.. on purpose..

Only reason he avoided that black flag was because it was at incredibly low speeds... his talk after the race was awkward and reminded me of the LieGate saga.. it was unnecessary, uncomfortable and embarrassing. Funnily enough though.. the LieGate saga became a very big thing..

There is a reason why 2018 is being compared to 2017.. Ferrari for the 2nd season had a massive chance at the title (slightly more so this year than previous). Ferrari have made race strategy mistakes, qualifying tyre choices mistakes and the main driver.. Vettel.. also makes mistakes.

Vettel made more than a few mistakes last year. Like 2017.. he has put a ton of pressure on his shoulders.. after all he is driving for Ferrari. They expect trophies and wins.. unlike RBR back in the day.. who had the same desire but not the same level of expectations. Ferrari, the brand name and the fans all expect results.

2017 a good year for Sebastian Vettel? I don't think his fans nor Ferrari fans will agree with that assessment.

Except that's total boll**ks. He didn't purposely drive into another car in Singapore.

Unless you're talking about Baku, but if so it's a bit confusing as it was Lewis, not "another driver," so it's a bit hard to follow your post.

Baku.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:43 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so

I would be curious to see a source for that given that Google says exactly the opposite thing, a bunch of articles from September 26th of Vettel saying he doesn't need one:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vette ... ychologist


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so

I would be curious to see a source for that given that Google says exactly the opposite thing, a bunch of articles from September 26th of Vettel saying he doesn't need one:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vette ... ychologist

Yeah I heard the same. :?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so

I would be curious to see a source for that given that Google says exactly the opposite thing, a bunch of articles from September 26th of Vettel saying he doesn't need one:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vette ... ychologist



Back to you BMWSauber84!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:46 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:58 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


Quite frankly I see more Lewis/Merc fans writing numerous posts critizing Ferrari and their drivers.
It's not that easy to break a 5 year long win streak with the confidence in team, car, development and results, it took an Alonso in 2006 and that streak was not as dominant as this one.

There is also a rumour about how much more work the Ferrari drivers have to do compared with Merc drivers to take things forward.

IMO we won't see Mercs result fade until a new regulation or the germans stop funding it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:12 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so

I would be curious to see a source for that given that Google says exactly the opposite thing, a bunch of articles from September 26th of Vettel saying he doesn't need one:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vette ... ychologist



Back to you BMWSauber84!


Ah it seems he toyed with the idea of seeing one but ruled it out eventually. Even toying with the idea suggests that he felt he was struggling to cope mentally with the pressures at Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:28 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so

I would be curious to see a source for that given that Google says exactly the opposite thing, a bunch of articles from September 26th of Vettel saying he doesn't need one:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vette ... ychologist



Back to you BMWSauber84!


Ah it seems he toyed with the idea of seeing one but ruled it out eventually. Even toying with the idea suggests that he felt he was struggling to cope mentally with the pressures at Ferrari.

Just to add some source material:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/vettel-i- ... chologist/
Quote:
On the question of a sports psychologist, he added: “I find the idea very interesting, but I have not met a person that I think can help. I’ve already researched it a bit, so the whole topic has not passed me by.

“When you have stress, you need to find balance.

“I have developed things that work for me. And I have enough self-discipline, so as not to be confused.”


I'm kind of surprised more of these guys don't have dedicated sports psychologists personally. I would have thought it's a potential advantage for anyone at the top in a high pressure sport and given the 'no stone left unturned' mentality to extracting additional performance of F1 teams I would have thought Ferrari/Mercedes etc would have guys on the books to make sure that their drivers are in the best frame of mind.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:39 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Vettel started the 2018 season driving perhaps as well as he's ever driven, but the mistakes have tended to creep in during 'squeaky bum time'. It was partially true of last season too but not to the same extent.

The main difference between this season and last season is that Vettel was still producing quality in adversity last season. There was the odd error but it was mainly the team letting him down. His poles in Singapore and Mexico were fantastic, the strong comeback drive in Malaysia, a good drive on an unfavourable Ferrari track in the USA etc.

This season while Ferrari have fallen apart strategically, Vettel has fallen apart psychologically. There is a sigbificant mistake pretty much every weekend now and Hamilton is producing the quality. The fact he is looking to see a sports psychologist is concerning.

Oh, I missed this. Is this true? Quite telling if so

I would be curious to see a source for that given that Google says exactly the opposite thing, a bunch of articles from September 26th of Vettel saying he doesn't need one:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vette ... ychologist



Back to you BMWSauber84!


Ah it seems he toyed with the idea of seeing one but ruled it out eventually. Even toying with the idea suggests that he felt he was struggling to cope mentally with the pressures at Ferrari.

Yes, I agree.

They are lucky to have this option actually. My wife was a professional fencer and we were discussing how she needed to talk someone at the time, as psychologically she felt that she could have given much more into it, but there was no such thing, just talk to the coach who may or may not tell you to gherkin off and get on with it...

For someone to contemplate it, it must be quite a serious thing. Also, it shows great character for Vettel I think, as most people tend to think "I don't need any help", they think that they are better. So if he did toy with the idea, then it's a good sign, he recognises that there is something that may need fixing.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:41 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.

Have you mixed your quotes mate? This post makes 0 sense to Zoue's one. I think you wanted to quote something else


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 am 
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Posts: 3076
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


Quite frankly I see more Lewis/Merc fans writing numerous posts critizing Ferrari and their drivers.
It's not that easy to break a 5 year long win streak with the confidence in team, car, development and results, it took an Alonso in 2006 and that streak was not as dominant as this one.

There is also a rumour about how much more work the Ferrari drivers have to do compared with Merc drivers to take things forward.

IMO we won't see Mercs result fade until a new regulation or the germans stop funding it.


Ferrari and more Vettel should be critised for the way they have under performed this season. Are we meant to say what a brilliant job Vettel has done? Vettel made a hatful of mistakes while having a car advantage, he has to be critised for this. Ferrari have made mistakes with strategy but so have Mercedes at least 3 times. Vettels mistakes has more than likely put everyone under pressure at Ferrari.

The car was good enough but the driver and team wasn't.

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2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:36 am 
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Posts: 28426
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


Quite frankly I see more Lewis/Merc fans writing numerous posts critizing Ferrari and their drivers.
It's not that easy to break a 5 year long win streak with the confidence in team, car, development and results, it took an Alonso in 2006 and that streak was not as dominant as this one.

There is also a rumour about how much more work the Ferrari drivers have to do compared with Merc drivers to take things forward.

IMO we won't see Mercs result fade until a new regulation or the germans stop funding it.

Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:47 am 
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Posts: 986
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
I should probably post this here as it's more about Vettel than Hamilton, so generally speaking, given the sort of discourse which has been ongoing over recent weeks/months...

Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.

Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


Quite frankly I see more Lewis/Merc fans writing numerous posts critizing Ferrari and their drivers.
It's not that easy to break a 5 year long win streak with the confidence in team, car, development and results, it took an Alonso in 2006 and that streak was not as dominant as this one.

There is also a rumour about how much more work the Ferrari drivers have to do compared with Merc drivers to take things forward.

IMO we won't see Mercs result fade until a new regulation or the germans stop funding it.

Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.


In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28426
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


Quite frankly I see more Lewis/Merc fans writing numerous posts critizing Ferrari and their drivers.
It's not that easy to break a 5 year long win streak with the confidence in team, car, development and results, it took an Alonso in 2006 and that streak was not as dominant as this one.

There is also a rumour about how much more work the Ferrari drivers have to do compared with Merc drivers to take things forward.

IMO we won't see Mercs result fade until a new regulation or the germans stop funding it.

Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.


In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..

You think it's just Lewis/Merc fans that think this?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3076
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yeah I'd say 2017 overall wasn't bad. This year he's been very quick, but there have been too many errors. I think some of them were small, but cumulatively they have had a big impact on his season and he needs to have a bit of a chat with himself, really. He's let himself and the team down by being too hasty too many times


Baku/Singapore.. you know exactly what incident I am talking about. He purposely drove in to another car. The end. We've all witnessed other drivers do it but during racing conditions and get heavily sanctioned for it. During the safety car at very low speeds.. was the only reason that saved his neck. If he didn't purposely drive in to Lewis.. well.. he obviously forgot how big his car was.. he lost his cool. Badly. Not for the first time. He blamed Lewis for 'break testing' him even though telemetry proved he didn't.

Unfair on Vettel? No. He should be doing better. Unfair on Ferrari? No. They should be doing better. They made the mistakes. They've given in to their own pressure. They let this championship go just like last season.
As I said before - heads will roll. Ferrari have already made a choice to move Kimi out. We all know why. He doesn't challenge the front runners enough. He needs to be helping Vettel stop Lewis.. stop Merc... The qualifying, racing and the stats all show it.

Vettel and Ferrari have snuffed a 2nd championship. Even Vettel/Ferrari fans have been furious. They deserve the criticism they've been getting. This season and last wasn't about being out performed. It was Mercs/Lewis lack of mistakes and Ferrari/Vettels consistent ones that have summed up 2 seasons.

Pretty simple English.

Also; it was Ferrari and Vettel that admitted such things. You can argue with me, argue with fans, argue with everyone but it came out of their mouths... they are their own enemy... they lost last year.. and looking to lose again... through their own fault.


Quite frankly I see more Lewis/Merc fans writing numerous posts critizing Ferrari and their drivers.
It's not that easy to break a 5 year long win streak with the confidence in team, car, development and results, it took an Alonso in 2006 and that streak was not as dominant as this one.

There is also a rumour about how much more work the Ferrari drivers have to do compared with Merc drivers to take things forward.

IMO we won't see Mercs result fade until a new regulation or the germans stop funding it.

Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.


In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..


Is that all you can come back with? What do you think of Vettels season? It doesn't matter who's critising Vettel as he has made many mistakes this season.

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2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:34 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.

In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..

It's not just Hamilton fans. The combination of Vettel and Ferrari has simply not been good enough this year. They had the car to still be leading the WDC (although personally I doubt that will still be true by season's end), and they're nowhere near. That's on them.

Since I recently got called a Hamilton hater for bringing up the whole team orders double standards crap, you can safely take it that I am not a Hamilton fan. Vettel has let any chance of this title slip through his fingers by poor driving and poor decision making.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:43 am 
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Exediron wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.

In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..

It's not just Hamilton fans. The combination of Vettel and Ferrari has simply not been good enough this year. They had the car to still be leading the WDC (although personally I doubt that will still be true by season's end), and they're nowhere near. That's on them.

Since I recently got called a Hamilton hater for bringing up the whole team orders double standards crap, you can safely take it that I am not a Hamilton fan. Vettel has let any chance of this title slip through his fingers by poor driving and poor decision making.


It is all relative. This year Vettel's risks did not go his way. So he is "not good enough", "mistake prone" and "dropped the ball". In 2010, all the risks DID go his way and he took the title. So he was "a crash kid". He can't win for losing, so it is hard to take criticism of Vettel seriously from fans (be they Hamilton fans or not).

That said, Vettel's risks have lost him points, but certainly not the title, even without any loss of points, Ferrari would be behind. The total loss of points is simply not sufficient to close the gap to Hamilton. The way people talk about it, you would believe he'd lost 60 points. But I think we all know that is not the case.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:36 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
That said, Vettel's risks have lost him points, but certainly not the title, even without any loss of points, Ferrari would be behind. The total loss of points is simply not sufficient to close the gap to Hamilton. The way people talk about it, you would believe he'd lost 60 points. But I think we all know that is not the case.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that is exactly the case. Let's do just the big, verifiable mistakes:

Baku: Locks up trying to go from second to first, finishes fourth. Lost 13 points, since he would have won after Bottas' puncture if he stayed in second.
France: Hits Bottas at turn one, finishes fifth. Minimum point loss of 5 points assuming Bottas beats him otherwise, but probably more.
Germany: Crashes out of the lead. Minimum point loss of 18 points assuming Hamilton overtakes him anyway, but probably 25.
Italy: Hits Lewis on lap one, finishes fourth. Minimum point loss of 6 points assuming Hamilton wins anyway.
Japan: Spins in qualifying, hits Max in the race, finishes sixth. Minimum point loss of 7 points assuming he would have been third otherwise.

So in the very conservative view, Vettel has lost 49 points directly through avoidable errors, with a further swing of at least 14 points from Hamilton gaining places dues to his errors. In a less conservative view, where he should have finished second in France, won in Germany and won in Italy, he's given up 66 points through pure point loss and another 21 to Hamilton gaining places on him. And that's not even counting races where he simply didn't maximize his points haul due to anything but large, easily noted errors.

Mind you, I believe Ferrari has now lost the development war and Mercedes will be the quicker car until the end of the year. If that is true, then those mistakes ultimately won't matter, as Hamilton would have won anyway.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:25 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.

In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..

It's not just Hamilton fans. The combination of Vettel and Ferrari has simply not been good enough this year. They had the car to still be leading the WDC (although personally I doubt that will still be true by season's end), and they're nowhere near. That's on them.

Since I recently got called a Hamilton hater for bringing up the whole team orders double standards crap, you can safely take it that I am not a Hamilton fan. Vettel has let any chance of this title slip through his fingers by poor driving and poor decision making.


It is all relative. This year Vettel's risks did not go his way. So he is "not good enough", "mistake prone" and "dropped the ball". In 2010, all the risks DID go his way and he took the title. So he was "a crash kid". He can't win for losing, so it is hard to take criticism of Vettel seriously from fans (be they Hamilton fans or not).

That said, Vettel's risks have lost him points, but certainly not the title, even without any loss of points, Ferrari would be behind. The total loss of points is simply not sufficient to close the gap to Hamilton. The way people talk about it, you would believe he'd lost 60 points. But I think we all know that is not the case.


I recently produced a big breakdown which shows it is the case, and I was conservative in my breakdown which also doesn't account for the sheer weight of extra gain Hamilton has garnered through all around superior performance sans blatant errors.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:08 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ferrari produced a perfectly good enough car to take the title this season but they blew out, stop making excuses for Ferrari and in particular Vettel.

In comes the Lewis/Merc fans..

It's not just Hamilton fans. The combination of Vettel and Ferrari has simply not been good enough this year. They had the car to still be leading the WDC (although personally I doubt that will still be true by season's end), and they're nowhere near. That's on them.

Since I recently got called a Hamilton hater for bringing up the whole team orders double standards crap, you can safely take it that I am not a Hamilton fan. Vettel has let any chance of this title slip through his fingers by poor driving and poor decision making.


It is all relative. This year Vettel's risks did not go his way. So he is "not good enough", "mistake prone" and "dropped the ball". In 2010, all the risks DID go his way and he took the title. So he was "a crash kid". He can't win for losing, so it is hard to take criticism of Vettel seriously from fans (be they Hamilton fans or not).

That said, Vettel's risks have lost him points, but certainly not the title, even without any loss of points, Ferrari would be behind. The total loss of points is simply not sufficient to close the gap to Hamilton. The way people talk about it, you would believe he'd lost 60 points. But I think we all know that is not the case.

Vettel was able to recover from mistakes made in 2010 because he had the fastest car, it's not been possible for him this year because Mercedes raised their game post Monza.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Well you can now add two more mistakes to the 2018 total for Seb just from this weekend.

Failing to slow down for he red flag on Friday put Seb down the grid in 5th.

Starting from fifth meant that he now had to pass Daniel Ricciardo, Valtteri Bottas, Lewis Hamilton, & Kimi Raikkonen. Trying to pass Daniel Seb took too much speed into the corner and couldn't rotate the car enough by the apex, so he banged wheels with Daniel and ended up back in 15th place. Yes it was a racing incident but it was one of Seb's own making. He didn't need to be back there battling with Daniel & he needed to try a much higher percentage pass on Daniel.

If you look at Lewis' battle with Max in the last couple of laps you can see that Lewis knew when to give up and take what he could get. Sebastian also executed a much better pass at the end on Valtteri. He waited and planned his way by and set it up so there was not much Valtteri could do to stop it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Well you can now add two more mistakes to the 2018 total for Seb just from this weekend.

Failing to slow down for he red flag on Friday put Seb down the grid in 5th.

Starting from fifth meant that he now had to pass Daniel Ricciardo, Valtteri Bottas, Lewis Hamilton, & Kimi Raikkonen. Trying to pass Daniel Seb took too much speed into the corner and couldn't rotate the car enough by the apex, so he banged wheels with Daniel and ended up back in 15th place. Yes it was a racing incident but it was one of Seb's own making. He didn't need to be back there battling with Daniel & he needed to try a much higher percentage pass on Daniel.

If you look at Lewis' battle with Max in the last couple of laps you can see that Lewis knew when to give up and take what he could get. Sebastian also executed a much better pass at the end on Valtteri. He waited and planned his way by and set it up so there was not much Valtteri could do to stop it.


Bottas went off so the pass ended up pretty easy.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Honestly, I can barely believe how unstuck Vettel has become. It's happened before in single races, but it's just every race now since Belgium, and that was really more of a one-off in between Germany and Italy. He needs to get his head screwed on, and fast, if he wants to still be considered at the top level of the sport.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Pressure. He just has to mature a bit more over the off-season, take stock of the whole season like Lewis did after 2011 and genuinely think where he could have made better decisions and come back better. His judgement has always lagged his pace, time to change that now.

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