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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
And we're back to he didn't cause the collision. Rinse, repeat.

So the driver in front is responsible for the actions of those behind him now?

When the driver in front doesn't give enough room, Vettel has form for this, read his crash kid thread, it seems to happen a few times with him to the point were it can be viewed as a weakness at the start of races when he has to deal with more than one car.

He did give enough room. He. Didn't. Hit. Anyone. And Max was well behind him, too. It was Kimi surging up from the inside that was the catalyst for the accident which subsequently collected Vettel. But Kimi had plenty of room on his inside and Vettel was pretty far from the edge of the circuit, too

No this is totally wrong. What a biased interpretation of the incident. There was only one driver who caused this situation and it was Vettel; who ensured that three drivers would be squeezed into a small segment of the track by moving over too aggressively and too late while 2 other cars were in the space he was moving to cover. Your bias when it pertains to Vettel is becoming way too extreme. Kimi was absolutely not at fault there.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
And we're back to he didn't cause the collision. Rinse, repeat.

So the driver in front is responsible for the actions of those behind him now?

When the driver in front doesn't give enough room, Vettel has form for this, read his crash kid thread, it seems to happen a few times with him to the point were it can be viewed as a weakness at the start of races when he has to deal with more than one car.

He did give enough room. He. Didn't. Hit. Anyone. And Max was well behind him, too. It was Kimi surging up from the inside that was the catalyst for the accident which subsequently collected Vettel. But Kimi had plenty of room on his inside and Vettel was pretty far from the edge of the circuit, too

No this is totally wrong. What a biased interpretation of the incident. There was only one driver who caused this situation and it was Vettel; who ensured that three drivers would be squeezed into a small segment of the track by moving over too aggressively and too late while 2 other cars were in the space he was moving to cover. Your bias when it pertains to Vettel is becoming way too extreme. Kimi was absolutely not at fault there.

No need to chuck out the bias card just because you have a different opinion.

I'm actually a Kimi fan. Have been for years. And I'm chalking it down to a racing incident overall. But if you look at the incident carefully you will see that right before the hit Kimi steers into Max. It's small, but there. If he'd carried on straight it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of what Vettel did. Which means Vettel's not to blame.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:16 pm 
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I'm half with Zoue on this one. I watched that incident over and over and continuously and incrementally wondered what the hell Kimi was doing especially as he had the best sight of the situation, but I guess he made assumptions about how Vettel was going to drive which didn't occur. I do still also blame Vettel for what I still see as a racing incident but no more than Kimi. So I'm in between but still hold the minority view that Kimi was equally to blame.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
And we're back to he didn't cause the collision. Rinse, repeat.

So the driver in front is responsible for the actions of those behind him now?

When the driver in front doesn't give enough room, Vettel has form for this, read his crash kid thread, it seems to happen a few times with him to the point were it can be viewed as a weakness at the start of races when he has to deal with more than one car.

He did give enough room. He. Didn't. Hit. Anyone. And Max was well behind him, too. It was Kimi surging up from the inside that was the catalyst for the accident which subsequently collected Vettel. But Kimi had plenty of room on his inside and Vettel was pretty far from the edge of the circuit, too

No this is totally wrong. What a biased interpretation of the incident. There was only one driver who caused this situation and it was Vettel; who ensured that three drivers would be squeezed into a small segment of the track by moving over too aggressively and too late while 2 other cars were in the space he was moving to cover. Your bias when it pertains to Vettel is becoming way too extreme. Kimi was absolutely not at fault there.

No need to chuck out the bias card just because you have a different opinion.

I'm actually a Kimi fan. Have been for years. And I'm chalking it down to a racing incident overall. But if you look at the incident carefully you will see that right before the hit Kimi steers into Max. It's small, but there. If he'd carried on straight it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of what Vettel did. Which means Vettel's not to blame.

Kimi makes a minuscule movement to the right; meanwhile Vettel steams across the track covering about 20 meters and Kimi is the cause of the collision? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Vettel's move was hyper-aggressive given the proximities, which is why it can't be transposed identically to situations that follow a similar principle.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:53 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When the driver in front doesn't give enough room, Vettel has form for this, read his crash kid thread, it seems to happen a few times with him to the point were it can be viewed as a weakness at the start of races when he has to deal with more than one car.

He did give enough room. He. Didn't. Hit. Anyone. And Max was well behind him, too. It was Kimi surging up from the inside that was the catalyst for the accident which subsequently collected Vettel. But Kimi had plenty of room on his inside and Vettel was pretty far from the edge of the circuit, too

No this is totally wrong. What a biased interpretation of the incident. There was only one driver who caused this situation and it was Vettel; who ensured that three drivers would be squeezed into a small segment of the track by moving over too aggressively and too late while 2 other cars were in the space he was moving to cover. Your bias when it pertains to Vettel is becoming way too extreme. Kimi was absolutely not at fault there.

No need to chuck out the bias card just because you have a different opinion.

I'm actually a Kimi fan. Have been for years. And I'm chalking it down to a racing incident overall. But if you look at the incident carefully you will see that right before the hit Kimi steers into Max. It's small, but there. If he'd carried on straight it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of what Vettel did. Which means Vettel's not to blame.

Kimi makes a minuscule movement to the right; meanwhile Vettel steams across the track covering about 20 meters and Kimi is the cause of the collision? Really?

Yes, for the simple fact that Kimi. Hit. Max.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He did give enough room. He. Didn't. Hit. Anyone. And Max was well behind him, too. It was Kimi surging up from the inside that was the catalyst for the accident which subsequently collected Vettel. But Kimi had plenty of room on his inside and Vettel was pretty far from the edge of the circuit, too

No this is totally wrong. What a biased interpretation of the incident. There was only one driver who caused this situation and it was Vettel; who ensured that three drivers would be squeezed into a small segment of the track by moving over too aggressively and too late while 2 other cars were in the space he was moving to cover. Your bias when it pertains to Vettel is becoming way too extreme. Kimi was absolutely not at fault there.

No need to chuck out the bias card just because you have a different opinion.

I'm actually a Kimi fan. Have been for years. And I'm chalking it down to a racing incident overall. But if you look at the incident carefully you will see that right before the hit Kimi steers into Max. It's small, but there. If he'd carried on straight it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of what Vettel did. Which means Vettel's not to blame.

Kimi makes a minuscule movement to the right; meanwhile Vettel steams across the track covering about 20 meters and Kimi is the cause of the collision? Really?

Yes, for the simple fact that Kimi. Hit. Max.

Honestly man, I'm really not liking the excessive use of punctuation. You are also willfully ignoring the fact that Vettel's late chop essentially removed Max's ability to react and turned a wide track into a narrow lane of death.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:23 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No this is totally wrong. What a biased interpretation of the incident. There was only one driver who caused this situation and it was Vettel; who ensured that three drivers would be squeezed into a small segment of the track by moving over too aggressively and too late while 2 other cars were in the space he was moving to cover. Your bias when it pertains to Vettel is becoming way too extreme. Kimi was absolutely not at fault there.

No need to chuck out the bias card just because you have a different opinion.

I'm actually a Kimi fan. Have been for years. And I'm chalking it down to a racing incident overall. But if you look at the incident carefully you will see that right before the hit Kimi steers into Max. It's small, but there. If he'd carried on straight it wouldn't have happened, irrespective of what Vettel did. Which means Vettel's not to blame.

Kimi makes a minuscule movement to the right; meanwhile Vettel steams across the track covering about 20 meters and Kimi is the cause of the collision? Really?

Yes, for the simple fact that Kimi. Hit. Max.

Honestly man, I'm really not liking the excessive use of punctuation. You are also willfully ignoring the fact that Vettel's late chop essentially removed Max's ability to react and turned a wide track into a narrow lane of death.

I'm just using it to stress the point but fair enough. If it's irritating, I apologise.

Vettel moving across narrowed Max's options, sure, but that's what blocking is supposed to do. I'm not ignoring anything, but stressing that nothing would have happened had Kimi not turned slightly into Max. That's what caused the accident, even if it was a small adjustment. They spotted it immediately on Dutch TV and they're no fans of Vettel here, I can tell you. They didn't even mention Vettel but got all excited about Kimi's move, replaying his steering input endlessly.

Vettel's under no obligation to give Max acres of room, just enough. And Max had enough until Kimi turned into him.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I'm just using it to stress the point but fair enough. If it's irritating, I apologise.

Vettel moving across narrowed Max's options, sure, but that's what blocking is supposed to do. I'm not ignoring anything, but stressing that nothing would have happened had Kimi not turned slightly into Max. That's what caused the accident, even if it was a small adjustment. They spotted it immediately on Dutch TV and they're no fans of Vettel here, I can tell you. They didn't even mention Vettel but got all excited about Kimi's move, replaying his steering input endlessly.

Vettel's under no obligation to give Max acres of room, just enough. And Max had enough until Kimi turned into him.

The only thing I took from this is that you live in Holland. Are you Dutch? This is a shock for me lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:48 pm 
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The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Yes, for the simple fact that Kimi. Hit. Max.


Well Max moved towards Kimi. The reason he moved towards Kimi was because of Vettel's move.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm just using it to stress the point but fair enough. If it's irritating, I apologise.

Vettel moving across narrowed Max's options, sure, but that's what blocking is supposed to do. I'm not ignoring anything, but stressing that nothing would have happened had Kimi not turned slightly into Max. That's what caused the accident, even if it was a small adjustment. They spotted it immediately on Dutch TV and they're no fans of Vettel here, I can tell you. They didn't even mention Vettel but got all excited about Kimi's move, replaying his steering input endlessly.

Vettel's under no obligation to give Max acres of room, just enough. And Max had enough until Kimi turned into him.

The only thing I took from this is that you live in Holland. Are you Dutch? This is a shock for me lol.

Why the shock :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:13 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Moving across is clumsy?

When it causes a collision then yes.

And we're back to he didn't cause the collision. Rinse, repeat.

So the driver in front is responsible for the actions of those behind him now?

When the driver in front doesn't give enough room, Vettel has form for this, read his crash kid thread, it seems to happen a few times with him to the point were it can be viewed as a weakness at the start of races when he has to deal with more than one car.

He did give enough room. He. Didn't. Hit. Anyone. And Max was well behind him, too. It was Kimi surging up from the inside that was the catalyst for the accident which subsequently collected Vettel. But Kimi had plenty of room on his inside and Vettel was pretty far from the edge of the circuit, too

The proof is in the pudding he squeezed 2 cars into a space hardly wide enough for 1 car, it actually is seen as a mistake by him by several pundits.

It's being said as Ferrari analyse what went wrong part of that is how Vettel faltered under pressurised circumstances listing Baku, Singapore and Mexico.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:27 am 
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mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:16 am 
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lamo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well, it would look like that wouldn't it? If Hamilton puts it on pole everyone says Merc is quickest, if Vettel gets pole everyone says Ferrari is quickest.

Not necessarily. I think that Hamilton took pole in Malaysia with what was probably not the quickest car (but Vettel was out of the picture). He also took pole in Spain when the cars were equal.

However, I don't rate Hamilton's qualifying performance this season as highly as Vettel in 2011 for instance. Vettel in 2011 stole the pole on several occasions when McLaren looked to be quicker (Hungary, Japan, Abu Dhabi). I haven't see that from Hamilton this season.

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I agree that Hamilton's approach this season has been different. He's been very cautious all year. He's changed completely from the guy who couldn't play the percentages to the ultimate percentage player this year.

I agree that Lewis has been cautious and consistent this year, but the real question I have is: Would he still be able to drive like this and win the WDC, [b]if Mercedes was on average 3 tenths slower than Ferrari in qualifying instead of 3 tenths quicker?[/b]


Its the reason Vettel had it so easy in 2010 and 2011 - the Red Bull took pole every race bar 1 or 2.

But to paint that kind of picture for this year is not true. Yes the Mercedes is quicker over 1 lap. But Vettel still has 4 poles this year, 5 for Ferrari and they also had the car to do it in 2 other races (Malaysia and Spain) that is 7 out of 18. So whilst Mercedes is better, Vettel-Ferrari has still been capable of pole in 39% of the races. If Vettel manages to get pole in the last 2 races (not that unlikely) you could argue he had the car in 9/20 races, nearly 50%...

Also, in his title fight with Hamilton. He has overtaken Lewis 3 times before the first corner (Bahrain, Spain and USA) so after the first corners we have;

Hamilton ahead - 9 times
Vettel ahead - 9 times

Which is an interesting figure and shows Vettel hasn't lost this title because of qualifying disadvantage.


Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:30 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

Let's not make things up, shall we? I don't recall saying long way, only that he was behind


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:34 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes, for the simple fact that Kimi. Hit. Max.


Well Max moved towards Kimi. The reason he moved towards Kimi was because of Vettel's move.

Sure. But the reason they came together was because Kimi hit Max


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:39 am 
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He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:38 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:29 am 
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Yes. The whole incident looks so weird. There was plenty of space to avoid it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:34 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:53 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:

Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.



From what I'm seeing in reviewing the starts, on average Hamilton is starting as well as Vettel or Bottas but my "findings" are preliminary and inchoate and not worth showing — but in just looking at the 18 races thus far and ranking the starts according to their quality: Max is getting off to the most very good starts, Hamilton is the steadiest and makes least critical errors and Vettel + Bottas are about as good as Hamilton overall but make bigger errors.

Hamilton keeps it very very clean but he's also sometimes a bit steady. He's only really gotten into trouble once the WDC was more or less wrapped up and that wasn't even his fault. Max is the most opportunistic and I've not finished the data for Ricciardo and Raikkonen yet (only doing the top 6 cars over the season.. hard enough as it is for now). Obviously, this is from the subjective viewpoint of one set of eyes and I'll also monitor net position (and theoretical points) gained and lost... so, in other words, some sort of objective measure also.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:41 am 
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Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


I may not agree that he did it on purpose but the fact of the matter is - we don't know.

Watch the replay and he adjusts the steering twice - left. One time due to the kerb and 2nd looks like grip (wing) issue.

BUT the problem is 8 months ago if some one said Vettel would purposely drive in to Lewis.... 99% of fans wouldn't believe it.. even I wouldn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOI2It_W3No

Then this happened.

Vettel has created that doubt - no one else - Vettel/fans can't even blame Lewis (like they did at the time)... nearly every drive in history who was caught purposely driving in to another driver - most recent times have been MSC/Maldonado - both drivers did it on more than one occasion.

The only thing that goes in favour of Vettel is the loss of grip on his wing which I think is the cause of him clipping Lewis. Did he give him enough room? Well no..... and that doesn't help his defence. The stewards deemed it nothing so that's the result. Then again they also deemed purposely driving in to Lewis a slapped wrist offence.

So the matter is closed but there is lingering doubt..


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:57 am 
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Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


His signature may give you a clue!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


I may not agree that he did it on purpose but the fact of the matter is - we don't know.

Watch the replay and he adjusts the steering twice - left. One time due to the kerb and 2nd looks like grip (wing) issue.

BUT the problem is 8 months ago if some one said Vettel would purposely drive in to Lewis.... 99% of fans wouldn't believe it.. even I wouldn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOI2It_W3No

Then this happened.

Vettel has created that doubt - no one else - Vettel/fans can't even blame Lewis (like they did at the time)... nearly every drive in history who was caught purposely driving in to another driver - most recent times have been MSC/Maldonado - both drivers did it on more than one occasion.

The only thing that goes in favour of Vettel is the loss of grip on his wing which I think is the cause of him clipping Lewis. Did he give him enough room? Well no..... and that doesn't help his defence. The stewards deemed it nothing so that's the result. Then again they also deemed purposely driving in to Lewis a slapped wrist offence.

So the matter is closed but there is lingering doubt..


:thumbup:

We know Vettel is a guy who has crashed into someone on purpose so it's only natural that people are less willing to give him any benefit of the doubt.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
We know Vettel is a guy who has crashed into someone on purpose so it's only natural that people are less willing to give him any benefit of the doubt.

I think there is a subtle but important difference between what Vettel did in Baku and what a couple of people are insinuating he did in Mexico. I agree we’ve see Vettel hit another driver deliberately, however it was to display his anger, not to take Hamilton out. He hit tyre to tyre at a very slow speed.

I’ve never seen Vettel try to take another driver out deliberately, not that I’d necessarily put it past him or anyone else on the grid, but I don’t agree with not giving the benefit of the doubt due to Baku. What he did there and what he is accused of here are two very different things IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


I may not agree that he did it on purpose but the fact of the matter is - we don't know.

Watch the replay and he adjusts the steering twice - left. One time due to the kerb and 2nd looks like grip (wing) issue.

BUT the problem is 8 months ago if some one said Vettel would purposely drive in to Lewis.... 99% of fans wouldn't believe it.. even I wouldn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOI2It_W3No

Then this happened.

Vettel has created that doubt - no one else - Vettel/fans can't even blame Lewis (like they did at the time)... nearly every drive in history who was caught purposely driving in to another driver - most recent times have been MSC/Maldonado - both drivers did it on more than one occasion.

The only thing that goes in favour of Vettel is the loss of grip on his wing which I think is the cause of him clipping Lewis. Did he give him enough room? Well no..... and that doesn't help his defence. The stewards deemed it nothing so that's the result. Then again they also deemed purposely driving in to Lewis a slapped wrist offence.

So the matter is closed but there is lingering doubt..


:thumbup:

We know Vettel is a guy who has crashed into someone on purpose so it's only natural that people are less willing to give him any benefit of the doubt.


This is understandable. However people will always assume the worst and in any scenario they pretty much never give the benefit of the doubt. If someone has done it once, it doesn't mean that every time there is contact it is on purpose. I find is somewhat unfair.

Then again, he made his own bed, so he can't complain really


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well, it would look like that wouldn't it? If Hamilton puts it on pole everyone says Merc is quickest, if Vettel gets pole everyone says Ferrari is quickest.

Not necessarily. I think that Hamilton took pole in Malaysia with what was probably not the quickest car (but Vettel was out of the picture). He also took pole in Spain when the cars were equal.

However, I don't rate Hamilton's qualifying performance this season as highly as Vettel in 2011 for instance. Vettel in 2011 stole the pole on several occasions when McLaren looked to be quicker (Hungary, Japan, Abu Dhabi). I haven't see that from Hamilton this season.

Quote:
I agree that Hamilton's approach this season has been different. He's been very cautious all year. He's changed completely from the guy who couldn't play the percentages to the ultimate percentage player this year.

I agree that Lewis has been cautious and consistent this year, but the real question I have is: Would he still be able to drive like this and win the WDC, [b]if Mercedes was on average 3 tenths slower than Ferrari in qualifying instead of 3 tenths quicker?[/b]


Its the reason Vettel had it so easy in 2010 and 2011 - the Red Bull took pole every race bar 1 or 2.

But to paint that kind of picture for this year is not true. Yes the Mercedes is quicker over 1 lap. But Vettel still has 4 poles this year, 5 for Ferrari and they also had the car to do it in 2 other races (Malaysia and Spain) that is 7 out of 18. So whilst Mercedes is better, Vettel-Ferrari has still been capable of pole in 39% of the races. If Vettel manages to get pole in the last 2 races (not that unlikely) you could argue he had the car in 9/20 races, nearly 50%...

Also, in his title fight with Hamilton. He has overtaken Lewis 3 times before the first corner (Bahrain, Spain and USA) so after the first corners we have;

Hamilton ahead - 9 times
Vettel ahead - 9 times

Which is an interesting figure and shows Vettel hasn't lost this title because of qualifying disadvantage.


Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.

If you are saying that Hamilton didn't take advantage of his pole positions then you can't be saying he won the title because of his pole positions.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

Let's not make things up, shall we? I don't recall saying long way, only that he was behind

Well it was a case of remembering correctly, you simply didn't say he was behind him but well behind him which implies he wasn't even close.

However the clip which was taken perhaps a second before the collision between Verstappen and Kimi shows that Verstappen's car was partially alongside Vettel's car so you was wrong.

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

The clip shows both Verstappen and Vettel turning left whilst Kimi was driving in a straight line, also that's not were Vettel's car ended up his trajectory takes him right in front of Kimi's car as well, it's been said before that if Verstappen had somehow managed to avoid Kimi's car then Vettel would have hit Kimi anyway or forced Kimi into serious avoiding action.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.

I'm happy to say that it was just another piece of clumsy driving by Vettel which is actually worse for him because how is he going to be able to sort this out for next season?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
We know Vettel is a guy who has crashed into someone on purpose so it's only natural that people are less willing to give him any benefit of the doubt.

I think there is a subtle but important difference between what Vettel did in Baku and what a couple of people are insinuating he did in Mexico. I agree we’ve see Vettel hit another driver deliberately, however it was to display his anger, not to take Hamilton out. He hit tyre to tyre at a very slow speed.

I’ve never seen Vettel try to take another driver out deliberately, not that I’d necessarily put it past him or anyone else on the grid, but I don’t agree with not giving the benefit of the doubt due to Baku. What he did there and what he is accused of here are two very different things IMO.


Yes I agree and I don't think he deliberately hit Hamilton here. It makes no sense as he had hardly anything to gain. Best case scenario he postpones Hamilton winning the WDC by one race. Hardly seems worth the risk and Vettel is an intelligent man.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:45 pm 
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mas wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

The clip shows both Verstappen and Vettel turning left whilst Kimi was driving in a straight line, also that's not were Vettel's car ended up his trajectory takes him right in front of Kimi's car as well, it's been said before that if Verstappen had somehow managed to avoid Kimi's car then Vettel would have hit Kimi anyway or forced Kimi into serious avoiding action.

It may have been said but that doesn't make it any more accurate. There was never any reason to believe that Vettel would continue unchecked right until the white line, yet some have put that out there as if it's fact. It would have been strange, not least because it would have made the corner very hard to navigate.

I repeat, the picture shows Kimi had plenty of room on the inside


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm just using it to stress the point but fair enough. If it's irritating, I apologise.

Vettel moving across narrowed Max's options, sure, but that's what blocking is supposed to do. I'm not ignoring anything, but stressing that nothing would have happened had Kimi not turned slightly into Max. That's what caused the accident, even if it was a small adjustment. They spotted it immediately on Dutch TV and they're no fans of Vettel here, I can tell you. They didn't even mention Vettel but got all excited about Kimi's move, replaying his steering input endlessly.

Vettel's under no obligation to give Max acres of room, just enough. And Max had enough until Kimi turned into him.

The only thing I took from this is that you live in Holland. Are you Dutch? This is a shock for me lol.

Why the shock :lol:

I honestly thought you were British the whole time. Not sure why but I did.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


His signature may give you a clue!


You are better than that.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.

I'm happy to say that it was just another piece of clumsy driving by Vettel which is actually worse for him because how is he going to be able to sort this out for next season?


It's just a weird incident. He had so much space but he was just homing in on Hamilton. Hopefully it was an honest mistake.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well, it would look like that wouldn't it? If Hamilton puts it on pole everyone says Merc is quickest, if Vettel gets pole everyone says Ferrari is quickest.

Not necessarily. I think that Hamilton took pole in Malaysia with what was probably not the quickest car (but Vettel was out of the picture). He also took pole in Spain when the cars were equal.

However, I don't rate Hamilton's qualifying performance this season as highly as Vettel in 2011 for instance. Vettel in 2011 stole the pole on several occasions when McLaren looked to be quicker (Hungary, Japan, Abu Dhabi). I haven't see that from Hamilton this season.

Quote:
I agree that Hamilton's approach this season has been different. He's been very cautious all year. He's changed completely from the guy who couldn't play the percentages to the ultimate percentage player this year.

I agree that Lewis has been cautious and consistent this year, but the real question I have is: Would he still be able to drive like this and win the WDC, [b]if Mercedes was on average 3 tenths slower than Ferrari in qualifying instead of 3 tenths quicker?[/b]


Its the reason Vettel had it so easy in 2010 and 2011 - the Red Bull took pole every race bar 1 or 2.

But to paint that kind of picture for this year is not true. Yes the Mercedes is quicker over 1 lap. But Vettel still has 4 poles this year, 5 for Ferrari and they also had the car to do it in 2 other races (Malaysia and Spain) that is 7 out of 18. So whilst Mercedes is better, Vettel-Ferrari has still been capable of pole in 39% of the races. If Vettel manages to get pole in the last 2 races (not that unlikely) you could argue he had the car in 9/20 races, nearly 50%...

Also, in his title fight with Hamilton. He has overtaken Lewis 3 times before the first corner (Bahrain, Spain and USA) so after the first corners we have;

Hamilton ahead - 9 times
Vettel ahead - 9 times

Which is an interesting figure and shows Vettel hasn't lost this title because of qualifying disadvantage.


Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.

If you are saying that Hamilton didn't take advantage of his pole positions then you can't be saying he won the title because of his pole positions.


Not saying either.

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