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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


His signature may give you a clue!


You are better than that.


Ok, it was a cheap shot so I'm sorry for that. I have to say I have not seen you ever making a negative comment for Hamilton (not that I have read each and every comment from you), so your judgement when Lewis is involved is somewhat compromised in my eyes. But I should have worded it better, so apologies.

Let's see though; you can see Vettel's car twitching and almost losing it before the contact, are you 10000000% sure it was on purpose? Straight onto Hamilton?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


His signature may give you a clue!


You are better than that.


Ok, it was a cheap shot so I'm sorry for that. I have to say I have not seen you ever making a negative comment for Hamilton (not that I have read each and every comment from you), so your judgement when Lewis is involved is somewhat compromised in my eyes. But I should have worded it better, so apologies.

Let's see though; you can see Vettel's car twitching and almost losing it before the contact, are you 10000000% sure it was on purpose? Straight onto Hamilton?


I do not prefer Hamilton over Vettel, or the other way around, but onboard footage shows it is quite obvious Vettel is struggling for grip at the exit. And given his car's performance all weekend, I think he was (imo) confident he could beat Lewis in the race. So there is no logic to support Vettel hitting Hamilton on purpose (at least, not this time)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

As soon as Max got his front tyre in between Kimi's right tyres and at an angle of collision as conclusively shown by the photo collision was going to happen anytime within milliseconds whatever action Kimi took and you have given no evidence apart from heresay. Kimi can't even see Max's left front just behind his eyeline so why should he move to the left and take the corner at an unnatural steep angle. It is incumbent on the driver doing the overtaking to position his car not to collide and Max was behind the Ferraris when he collided with them.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Fantaribo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
I am sorry, but are you serious ?


His signature may give you a clue!


You are better than that.


Ok, it was a cheap shot so I'm sorry for that. I have to say I have not seen you ever making a negative comment for Hamilton (not that I have read each and every comment from you), so your judgement when Lewis is involved is somewhat compromised in my eyes. But I should have worded it better, so apologies.

Let's see though; you can see Vettel's car twitching and almost losing it before the contact, are you 10000000% sure it was on purpose? Straight onto Hamilton?


I do not prefer Hamilton over Vettel, or the other way around, but onboard footage shows it is quite obvious Vettel is struggling for grip at the exit. And given his car's performance all weekend, I think he was (imo) confident he could beat Lewis in the race. So there is no logic to support Vettel hitting Hamilton on purpose (at least, not this time)

I agree with this assessment


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
The only one who was changing direction was Max who started the race pointing right in Vettel's direction and ended the race pointing left at Kimi. However this has all been debated to death in this thread whose opening photo clearly shows who was not going down the track in a straight line and it was not Kimi but Max and Sebastian.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14478

Indeed and note that Zoue claims that Verstappen was a long way behind Vettel's car when even at that late stage there is an overlap that's why Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

The clip shows both Verstappen and Vettel turning left whilst Kimi was driving in a straight line, also that's not were Vettel's car ended up his trajectory takes him right in front of Kimi's car as well, it's been said before that if Verstappen had somehow managed to avoid Kimi's car then Vettel would have hit Kimi anyway or forced Kimi into serious avoiding action.

It may have been said but that doesn't make it any more accurate. There was never any reason to believe that Vettel would continue unchecked right until the white line, yet some have put that out there as if it's fact. It would have been strange, not least because it would have made the corner very hard to navigate.

I repeat, the picture shows Kimi had plenty of room on the inside

I daresay that Kimi had no idea of what Vettel was doing, the most aggressive driver was Vettel chopping from one side of the track to the other whilst apparently Kimi was at fault for driving in a straight line.

I've no doubt that once Kimi had seen Vettel he would have attempted to avoid the contact but it never got to that point.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the reason Vettel had it so easy in 2010 and 2011 - the Red Bull took pole every race bar 1 or 2.

But to paint that kind of picture for this year is not true. Yes the Mercedes is quicker over 1 lap. But Vettel still has 4 poles this year, 5 for Ferrari and they also had the car to do it in 2 other races (Malaysia and Spain) that is 7 out of 18. So whilst Mercedes is better, Vettel-Ferrari has still been capable of pole in 39% of the races. If Vettel manages to get pole in the last 2 races (not that unlikely) you could argue he had the car in 9/20 races, nearly 50%...

Also, in his title fight with Hamilton. He has overtaken Lewis 3 times before the first corner (Bahrain, Spain and USA) so after the first corners we have;

Hamilton ahead - 9 times
Vettel ahead - 9 times

Which is an interesting figure and shows Vettel hasn't lost this title because of qualifying disadvantage.


Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.

If you are saying that Hamilton didn't take advantage of his pole positions then you can't be saying he won the title because of his pole positions.


Not saying either.

Then I don't know exactly what you are trying to say, it seems like you're trying to play both sides of the debate always leaving Hamilton on the advantage upside.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:22 pm 
Siao7 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
He did it on purpose, Hamilton was far to the left and far ahead when Vettel got going and went straight on into him.


I am sorry, but are you serious ?


His signature may give you a clue!


You are better than that.


Ok, it was a cheap shot so I'm sorry for that. I have to say I have not seen you ever making a negative comment for Hamilton (not that I have read each and every comment from you), so your judgement when Lewis is involved is somewhat compromised in my eyes. But I should have worded it better, so apologies.

Let's see though; you can see Vettel's car twitching and almost losing it before the contact, are you 10000000% sure it was on purpose? Straight onto Hamilton?


You don't have to apologies, but thanks. My answe (and cheapshot...) is that Hamilton doesn't do as much s*it as Vettel! :]
No, I will be serious. Hamilton has done quite a few things too and when he does I use to point it out too, but not as frequent perhaps.
Mostly I have been criticising him for whining on the radio, which they all are guilty for at one time or another. Hamiltons 2011 wasn't easy to watch...

No, I'm not sure it was on purpose but Hamilton seem to be so far ahead and that there is quite the gap between them before they collide.
Might be the weird angel, haven't looked it up too well.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:55 pm 
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If Vettel did it on purpose, he was taking the biggest gamble of the championship, married to a skill level that belies any performance that came before it.... if he were too somehow judge the throttle to produce enough snap oversteer, whilst being confident enough to control it to the point where he only rubbed Hamilton's tyre enough to cause a puncture with his endplate without tearing his front wing off then he would immediately be elevated to my GOAT. As it was, looking at the utter mess of the back of that Mercedes, and the mess he made of his own front wing, i'd say Vettel was feeling the heat and got on the loud peddle a bit too hard once he realised Hamilton had jumped him, ultimately causing their contact.

There was literally 0 sense for Vettel to try and run him off the road in such a fashion, given that he needed 2nd place himself to have any chance of taking the title battle past Mexico. Desperation can be a powerful thing, but the risk/reward in deliberately inducing such contact is so skewed that I find it utterly inplausible for it to have been on purpose.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the reason Vettel had it so easy in 2010 and 2011 - the Red Bull took pole every race bar 1 or 2.

But to paint that kind of picture for this year is not true. Yes the Mercedes is quicker over 1 lap. But Vettel still has 4 poles this year, 5 for Ferrari and they also had the car to do it in 2 other races (Malaysia and Spain) that is 7 out of 18. So whilst Mercedes is better, Vettel-Ferrari has still been capable of pole in 39% of the races. If Vettel manages to get pole in the last 2 races (not that unlikely) you could argue he had the car in 9/20 races, nearly 50%...

Also, in his title fight with Hamilton. He has overtaken Lewis 3 times before the first corner (Bahrain, Spain and USA) so after the first corners we have;

Hamilton ahead - 9 times
Vettel ahead - 9 times

Which is an interesting figure and shows Vettel hasn't lost this title because of qualifying disadvantage.


Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.

If you are saying that Hamilton didn't take advantage of his pole positions then you can't be saying he won the title because of his pole positions.


Not saying either.

Then I don't know exactly what you are trying to say, it seems like you're trying to play both sides of the debate always leaving Hamilton on the advantage upside.


I'm saying Seb jumping Lewis 3 times tells us is that Lewis got a bad start and wasted the advantage of starting ahead 3 times. It doesn't mean that there wasn't an advantage in the first place.

That's it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Doesn't that just mean there are still some issues with Lewis's starts? A bit up and down again. It doesn't really tell us anything car wise or lessen the importance of the pole I don't think. It's not like it was bound to happen so pole can be seen as not that important overall.

It got Lewis an advantage at those starts, what he did or didn't do with that advantage is on him if there's no mechanical issue.

If you are saying that Hamilton didn't take advantage of his pole positions then you can't be saying he won the title because of his pole positions.


Not saying either.

Then I don't know exactly what you are trying to say, it seems like you're trying to play both sides of the debate always leaving Hamilton on the advantage upside.


I'm saying Seb jumping Lewis 3 times tells us is that Lewis got a bad start and wasted the advantage of starting ahead 3 times. It doesn't mean that there wasn't an advantage in the first place.

That's it.

Whilst also missing the point of what lamo said that in 50% of the races Vettel was in front of Hamilton by the first corner, we see that pole gave Vettel a great advantage in Mexico and Hamilton a great advantage in Austin, the last 2 races, this is a total fixation on qualifying giving Hamilton the title.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If you are saying that Hamilton didn't take advantage of his pole positions then you can't be saying he won the title because of his pole positions.


Not saying either.

Then I don't know exactly what you are trying to say, it seems like you're trying to play both sides of the debate always leaving Hamilton on the advantage upside.


I'm saying Seb jumping Lewis 3 times tells us is that Lewis got a bad start and wasted the advantage of starting ahead 3 times. It doesn't mean that there wasn't an advantage in the first place.

That's it.

Whilst also missing the point of what lamo said that in 50% of the races Vettel was in front of Hamilton by the first corner, we see that pole gave Vettel a great advantage in Mexico and Hamilton a great advantage in Austin, the last 2 races, this is a total fixation on qualifying giving Hamilton the title.


I wasn't trying to enter the larger debate and perhaps I misunderstood, I was referring to those 3 poor starts where the advantage of starting ahead was lost by T1 so saying well it didn't matter as Seb got ahead anyway in some of them seemed to miss the point for me but again you're just highlighting bad starts in Mex and US which doesn't equate to no advantage at the start no matter how hard you want it to. It's a blown advantage really.

On the debate if you're so interested then of course a qualifying advantage is important in a title race, there's a bloody good reason they want pole and dirty air is a killer in this game, but no single thing is ever responsible for a title and trying to put it down to just one single aspect of the racing done over a weekend is completely asinine.

I also don't think blown advantages equates to no advantages in racing. Starting further up allows bad starts to only be punished by 1 or 2 cars so after T1 you might be 2nd and still well in it. If you were 4/5/6th coming out of T1 then you have an entirely different race on your hands.

Lewis won 2 of the 3 races despite the poor start mentioned and while I think he'd have won regardless in the US I'm not convinced he gets 43pts from Bah and Spain if he's coming out of T1 in 5th or 6th and I don't care what side of the fence that puts me on in this debate for you but if I missed lamo's point or just misunderstood then fair enough, you can ignore me.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Vettel got a very good start in the US GP so I don't put it down to a poor Lewis start. It doesn't necessarily tell us someone got a bad start but I'll present this stuff in due time in a dedicated thread.

Anyway mods seem very active these days for whatever reason so probably best to keep it on topic now Vamos Sebastian Forza Forza Allez Vettel etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Vettel got a very good start in the US GP so I don't put it down to a poor Lewis start. It doesn't necessarily tell us someone got a bad start but I'll present this stuff in due time in a dedicated thread.

Anyway mods seem very active these days for whatever reason so probably best to keep it on topic now Vamos Sebastian Forza Forza Allez Vettel etc.

Yeah good point about the Mods

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:27 am 
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Well Ferrari have admitted exactly what I said.

Reliability and driver mistakes/bad judgement cost them the title.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Well Ferrari have admitted exactly what I said.

Reliability and driver mistakes/bad judgement cost them the title.

Yes I ventured that as well in respect to Ferrari, I believe they view both Baku and Singapore as mistakes on the part of Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The only thing that shows is how inaccurate your statement is that Vettel squeezed them into a space barely wide enough for one car. Kimi had plenty of space on the inside.

Kimi did change direction and steered into Max. 100%

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Have you got a link that shows this.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:29 pm 
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mas wrote:
Have you got a link that shows this.

No, just the memory of two dozen replays and commentary at the time


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.

Seeing how the wheels are already interlocked and Verstappen is still turning left, Kimi doesn't even need to turn right for contact to happen, I see that as evidence enough whereas you are not providing any evidence that says Kimi actually turned right in the first place.

Now Kimi's car did turn right after the contact with Verstappen and from there of course he hit Vettel's car.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.

Seeing how the wheels are already interlocked and Verstappen is still turning left, Kimi doesn't even need to turn right for contact to happen, I see that as evidence enough whereas you are not providing any evidence that says Kimi actually turned right in the first place.

Now Kimi's car did turn right after the contact with Verstappen and from there of course he hit Vettel's car.

No, other than the fact it was extensively discussed here and innumerable replays shown. You don't want to accept that is up to you, but I'm comfortable with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.

Seeing how the wheels are already interlocked and Verstappen is still turning left, Kimi doesn't even need to turn right for contact to happen, I see that as evidence enough whereas you are not providing any evidence that says Kimi actually turned right in the first place.

Now Kimi's car did turn right after the contact with Verstappen and from there of course he hit Vettel's car.

No, other than the fact it was extensively discussed here and innumerable replays shown. You don't want to accept that is up to you, but I'm comfortable with it.

I'm comfortable with reading what other people made of it as well which includes Ferrari were it comes under their list of mistakes that were made by both team and driver which lost them the WDC title.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.

Seeing how the wheels are already interlocked and Verstappen is still turning left, Kimi doesn't even need to turn right for contact to happen, I see that as evidence enough whereas you are not providing any evidence that says Kimi actually turned right in the first place.

Now Kimi's car did turn right after the contact with Verstappen and from there of course he hit Vettel's car.

No, other than the fact it was extensively discussed here and innumerable replays shown. You don't want to accept that is up to you, but I'm comfortable with it.

I'm comfortable with reading what other people made of it as well which includes Ferrari were it comes under their list of mistakes that were made by both team and driver which lost them the WDC title.

Well, Kimi is a Ferrari driver so there's no conflict there...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.

Seeing how the wheels are already interlocked and Verstappen is still turning left, Kimi doesn't even need to turn right for contact to happen, I see that as evidence enough whereas you are not providing any evidence that says Kimi actually turned right in the first place.

Now Kimi's car did turn right after the contact with Verstappen and from there of course he hit Vettel's car.

No, other than the fact it was extensively discussed here and innumerable replays shown. You don't want to accept that is up to you, but I'm comfortable with it.

I'm comfortable with reading what other people made of it as well which includes Ferrari were it comes under their list of mistakes that were made by both team and driver which lost them the WDC title.

Well, Kimi is a Ferrari driver so there's no conflict there...

Well the picture tells it all, the only driver who was driving in a straight line was Kimi.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Seeing how the wheels are already interlocked and Verstappen is still turning left, Kimi doesn't even need to turn right for contact to happen, I see that as evidence enough whereas you are not providing any evidence that says Kimi actually turned right in the first place.

Now Kimi's car did turn right after the contact with Verstappen and from there of course he hit Vettel's car.

No, other than the fact it was extensively discussed here and innumerable replays shown. You don't want to accept that is up to you, but I'm comfortable with it.

I'm comfortable with reading what other people made of it as well which includes Ferrari were it comes under their list of mistakes that were made by both team and driver which lost them the WDC title.

Well, Kimi is a Ferrari driver so there's no conflict there...

Well the picture tells it all, the only driver who was driving in a straight line was Kimi.

well the picture doesn't tell it all, or else I'd be agreeing with you.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:

No. Look at the photo, Kimi's front tyres are pointing to the left towards the apex not to the right towards Max. Whereas Max's direction is clearly on a collision course with Kimi as his front tyres are already within Kimi's rear tyres before the impact pointing towards Kimi's car body. Max just panicked because Vettel closed the space in front of him and he probably misjudged the distance to Kimi's car. Kimi was at a gentle angle to make the apex, if he moved any further over he would have had to take the apex at close to a right angle so he is relatively blameless here. It's either racing incident, Vettel or Verstappen, take your choice.

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Source - http://www.autosport.com

Yep no way is Kimi turning right and this is a split second before the contact, I'm wondering if some people are looking at Verstappen's onboard when they say this when it may appear that Kimi turns right towards Verstappen when it is in fact Verstappen that is turning left?

He did turn right. It was played to death at the time and 100% conclusive. This was from TV feed from various angles, not just Verstappen's onboard

The clip shows Kimi traveling in a straight line to the white line a split second before the contact, if Kimi is turning right then Verstappen is turning even more to the left, as for Vettel he's heading straight for the pit wall.

On the video right before the clash it shows Kimi turning into Max.
Mas, Pokerman, look at the "all angles" video again, then think the whole sequence through. Kimi was gently turning to the right, before it became clear to him that Max was continuing to come left, instead of backing out. There's a little problem with the video, in that the cars are already rolling when the Max and Kimi onboards start. Both were pointing right, but Max going there makes Kimi switch left into the open space created. Precisely why Max decides to stop his move to the right so early, still isn't clear to me, unless he did realise that Kimi was making a monster start, and was making Max choose who to block first, or to block most. Instead of taking the initiative and putting pressure on Sebastian, Max had completely lost the initiative to the two Ferrari drivers.
Max then making two moves to the left make me doubt he saw Kimi making the perfect start however, and that would explain his getting in the way of Kimi. He only starts turning right again when Kimi shoots alongside. Not before, which made me doubt already at the time what Max said about seeing the situation develop. He didn't (edit: or at least not in time), because if he did, he would have backed out of the trap he had set up for himself.

I must say I didn't think I would spend time looking at this in detail again, but I'm glad I did. It confirmed what I saw the evening itself: that Max was the driver who bears most responsibility for the incident. The reason I can agree with the stewards' verdict, is that things happened so fast, all drivers got caught out by it. But that doesn't change the analysis.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:06 pm 
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You guys might remember this...



And months down the line we have this...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Invade wrote:
You guys might remember this...



And months down the line we have this...

Image

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:07 pm 
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I'm not sure Vettel will want to be seen to be defended by Lewis but it is a point worth making. I just wonder how much of Ferrari's implosion is down to Vettel and how much is the fault of the Ferrari team.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.


Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.


Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.



:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.


Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.


:thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:02 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.

Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.

It's not quite the same, though, because nobody questioned Prost and Senna as the two drivers of their era. Vettel and Hamilton have Alonso coinciding with their entire careers so far, and Max who may be on their level, and Leclerc coming in who we'll find out about. Senna and Prost had a much bigger advantage over the field of the time.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:38 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.

Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.

It's not quite the same, though, because nobody questioned Prost and Senna as the two drivers of their era. Vettel and Hamilton have Alonso coinciding with their entire careers so far, and Max who may be on their level, and Leclerc coming in who we'll find out about. Senna and Prost had a much bigger advantage over the field of the time.

During Vettel's and Hamilton's F1 careers Alonso didn't win a single WDC while they've won a combined 8 (soon 9) so I don't have any gripe with not including Alonso.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:02 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.

Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.

It's not quite the same, though, because nobody questioned Prost and Senna as the two drivers of their era. Vettel and Hamilton have Alonso coinciding with their entire careers so far, and Max who may be on their level, and Leclerc coming in who we'll find out about. Senna and Prost had a much bigger advantage over the field of the time.

During Vettel's and Hamilton's F1 careers Alonso didn't win a single WDC while they've won a combined 8 (soon 9) so I don't have any gripe with not including Alonso.


Surely on-paper success isn't the only indication of talent, especially when we consider how talented Alonso seems to be.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:04 am 
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Incredible to think that prior to Invade's post yesterday the Official Vettel thread hadn't had a single entry in a year!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:40 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both of them are good men and it's good seeing them show each other respect.

Aye, this is the Senna and Prost of this generation and they are showing that they can take the fight to each other, and even cross the line a few times, and still have enough respect for each other to defend what they do in the heat of the moment.

It's not quite the same, though, because nobody questioned Prost and Senna as the two drivers of their era. Vettel and Hamilton have Alonso coinciding with their entire careers so far, and Max who may be on their level, and Leclerc coming in who we'll find out about. Senna and Prost had a much bigger advantage over the field of the time.

During Vettel's and Hamilton's F1 careers Alonso didn't win a single WDC while they've won a combined 8 (soon 9) so I don't have any gripe with not including Alonso.


Surely on-paper success isn't the only indication of talent, especially when we consider how talented Alonso seems to be.

But had only Senna or only Prost won all the titles during their rivalry it wouldn't be nearly as revered as it is, even if they were equally as talented. It takes a certain amount of success as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Surely on-paper success isn't the only indication of talent, especially when we consider how talented Alonso seems to be.

But had only Senna or only Prost won all the titles during their rivalry it wouldn't be nearly as revered as it is, even if they were equally as talented. It takes a certain amount of success as well.


If we eliminate either Senna or Prost and give all the career statistics to the other we would have a driver with 7 WDCs, 92 wins, 98 pole positions, and 60 fastest laps. Whoever this composite driver was, he would be revered as probably the all time greatest F1 driver ever.

Senna and Prost's personal statistics may have suffered because of the rivalry but one has to wonder if we lost something because Michael Schumacher had only passing rivals that peaked and faded during his career. Jacques Villeneuve, Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen came and went before Fernando Alonso finally succeeded Michael as the next great champion.

If we didn't have both Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton, we would probably be rewriting the Formula One record books every weekend. Not that I think the remaining driver would have won all the statistics of the missing champion but he would have won enough to easily eclipse Michael Schumacher's career.

Great competitors make great champions.

P.S. Yeah, I know that there are huge suppositions in my scenarios but that is the challenge in comparing the greats of Formula One racing.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
If we eliminate either Senna or Prost and give all the career statistics to the other we would have a driver with 7 WDCs, 92 wins, 98 pole positions, and 60 fastest laps. Whoever this composite driver was, he would be revered as probably the all time greatest F1 driver ever.

Senna and Prost's personal statistics may have suffered because of the rivalry but one has to wonder if we lost something because Michael Schumacher had only passing rivals that peaked and faded during his career. Jacques Villeneuve, Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen came and went before Fernando Alonso finally succeeded Michael as the next great champion.

Ironically, Prost would probably have something close to those numbers if he simply hadn't insisted on Senna for his teammate and accepted McLaren's first choice of Piquet instead. Knowing what we now know about Piquet's post-injury driving, Prost would have waxed him easily, and would have certainly won the 1988 and 1989 championships. He would never have left McLaren without Senna, and - with a teammate who couldn't threaten him - would probably have won the 1990 title as well. 1991 is a little less certain, since by that time Senna might have already been at Williams and done a better job than Mansell.

Honestly, when you consider how many championships Prost almost won, it's only by back luck he doesn't hold the record for most WDCs as it is. Two with Renault, two with McLaren and one with Ferrari all lost by very narrow margins.

Mort Canard wrote:
If we didn't have both Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton, we would probably be rewriting the Formula One record books every weekend. Not that I think the remaining driver would have won all the statistics of the missing champion but he would have won enough to easily eclipse Michael Schumacher's career.

Actually, I don't think eliminating either driver would have a huge effect.

For Vettel's championships, with him gone Lewis doesn't inherit any of them. In 2010 Alonso would have won, in 2011 Webber would have won (or maybe Button), in 2012 Alonso would have won again, and in 2013 either Alonso or Webber would have won. Hamilton wasn't Vettel's closest challenger in any of his years, mostly due to the car.

If you eliminate Hamilton, Vettel probably doesn't gain any championships either - but Rosberg certainly does. Rosberg would become the 2014 and 2015 WDC in addition to 2016, and he probably wouldn't have quit after 2016, so I think we can probably add 2017 to that (although it would have been a lot closer with Rosberg rather than Hamilton). This year is harder to call - Vettel might not have made some of the mistakes he did going up against Rosberg - but the way the car development seems to be going, this would be Rosberg's 5th WDC without Hamilton in the picture.

It's strange how this era is characterized as Hamilton vs. Vettel, when in reality it's been - up until 2017 - either Hamilton or Vettel, not the two actually fighting for the title.

(NOTE: I'm assuming a scenario where Rosberg becomes #1 at Mercedes from 2013 on with a weaker teammate, but it's possible that someone like Alonso joins Merc without Hamilton. In that case, he'd be winning all those titles instead of Rosberg, but it still wouldn't be Vettel)

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