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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:26 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Yes and your rating is to be placed above all. You are totally informed and you are totally objective right? Let's not pretend that your every post regarding Hamilton isn't primarily designed to take away from him.

At the end of the day, the strength of Barrichello is irrelevant anyway. The fact is that he was never in competition with Michael. The most glaring proof of this was Austria 2002; when Rubens was 20 seconds up the road and was ordered to pull over to let Michael by. It was the 6th race of the season and Michael had won the first 5 and Ferrari still wouldn't allow Rubends to win. Michael had first dibs on parts, strategy and the bottom line was that he was a true #1 driver. Not like the silly claims we see today. Both cars were used to help Michael win and not just late in the year; from round 1.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:28 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
It's not Hamilton's fault. He is hardly going to say ''no I don't want a car that is capable of winning >10 races a season - every season'' - and he is absolutely capitalising on it.

I think unlike 2004, and this is the big difference for me, there is a feeling that we've been denied a truely great era simply by the way things have been. Money, or rather the balance of money, has ruined the sport. It's became stale, boring, predictable.

We've had a crop of some fantastic drivers over the last decade, but we haven't seen that much legendary action. Indeed the 2010's has IMHO been the worst decade - and by quite a margin.

TBH, a bit like the money has ruined football, and the internet has taken away any wonder. Maybe I am just becoming old, but I generally do think the fun has been sapped out things in general and things were more enjoyable in the pre-internet (or rather smart phone) era.


2010 we had four drivers going into the final race able to win, 2012 was exciting generally and a thrilling decider between Alonso and Vettel in Brazil, a couple of great battles between Hamilton and Rosberg in 2014 and 2016. It's a shame that the 2017/18 battles didn't play out over a full season as they looked like they could be crackers going into the summer break.

I don't think it's been that bad has it? I get that we've only had three world champions and two constructors champions but I don't quite get all the negativity.


2014 onward is the biggest period of stability the sport has ever had. Back in 2004 I couldn't predict the 3 fastest cars for the next race. In 2019 I can tell you what the 3 fastest cars will be in 12 months time with almost absolute certainty.

It's not just one thing TBF. If you wrote a list of all the things that caused excitement in F1 20 years ago you would see that a lot of those things have now been watered down or are gone completely. Not racing in the wet, tracks being made far less punishing, cars not being able to follow each other closely, ebb and flow of team performance, unpredictability with reliability, new teams coming regularly to the grid. Sadly I could go on and on.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
It's not Hamilton's fault. He is hardly going to say ''no I don't want a car that is capable of winning >10 races a season - every season''.

I think unlike 2004, there is a feeling that we've been denied a truely great era simply by the way things have been. Money, or rather the balance of money, has ruined the sport. It's became stale, boring, predictable.

We've had a crop of some fantastic drivers over the last decade, but we haven't seen that much legendary action. Indeed the 2010's has IMHO been the worst decade - and by quite a margin.

TBH, a bit like the money has ruined football, and the internet has taken away any wonder. Maybe I am just becoming old, but I generally do think the fun has been sapped out things in general and things were more enjoyable in the pre-internet (or rather smart phone) era.

You've got a fuzzy memory. Back in 2004 there was even more backlash and claims of boredom and the sport being ruined. You didn't have overtaking back then because it was pre-DRS and, unlike Hamilton, Michael did not have to compete with his teammates. So years where the Ferrari was dominant meant that the WDC was 100% a foregone conclusion. The only difference is that we are now in the drama-queen era of fans who overreact to pretty much everything.


2004 was an awful season in terms of sport, I'm close between that and 2013 as the worst of my time watching F1 (this is season 28). I probably would give it to 2004 simply down to the fact it was a foregone conclusion early on, rather than 2013 which was a bit of a mirror image - although equally as dull. I think this season has the potential to be running them close as well, but we will see how it goes - I can't help but feel Hamilton is finding his stride and Bottas purple patch is over.

I don't think it's a case of being a drama queen for many - I think many think F1 is in a bad way and has been in a bad way for a long long time. The issues aren't getting better and consistently being failed to be addressed. TBH the rot stems way back, certainly encompassing Schumachers era - yip a few sticking plaster solutions that fixed things for a bit, but the trends and ever tightening circle and something has to give or this sport will die.

I don't blame Hamilton or any driver - they are only drivers - and Hamilton is a fantastic one.

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Last edited by Badgeronimous on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:34 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Yes and your rating is to be placed above all. You are totally informed and you are totally objective right? Let's not pretend that your every post regarding Hamilton isn't primarily designed to take away from him.

Yeah, and I would say my rating is fairly accurate. Bottas is probably a bit quicker in qualifying. Barrichello had better wheel-to-wheel racecraft and was better in the rain.

Quote:
At the end of the day, the strength of Barrichello is irrelevant anyway. The fact is that he was never in competition with Michael. The most glaring proof of this was Austria 2002; when Rubens was 20 seconds up the road and was ordered to pull over to let Michael by. It was the 6th race of the season and Michael had won the first 5 and Ferrari still wouldn't allow Rubends to win. Michael had first dibs on parts, strategy and the bottom line was that he was a true #1 driver. Not like the silly claims we see today. Both cars were used to help Michael win and not just late in the year; from round 1.

You were talking about 2004, not 2002. Team orders were banned in 2004. I don't recall a single race in 2004 where Rubens had to let Michael through (if you remember one, let me know).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:39 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.

Yes and your rating is to be placed above all. You are totally informed and you are totally objective right? Let's not pretend that your every post regarding Hamilton isn't primarily designed to take away from him.

Yeah, and I would say my rating is fairly accurate. Bottas is probably a bit quicker in qualifying. Barrichello had better wheel-to-wheel racecraft and was better in the rain.

Quote:
At the end of the day, the strength of Barrichello is irrelevant anyway. The fact is that he was never in competition with Michael. The most glaring proof of this was Austria 2002; when Rubens was 20 seconds up the road and was ordered to pull over to let Michael by. It was the 6th race of the season and Michael had won the first 5 and Ferrari still wouldn't allow Rubends to win. Michael had first dibs on parts, strategy and the bottom line was that he was a true #1 driver. Not like the silly claims we see today. Both cars were used to help Michael win and not just late in the year; from round 1.

You were talking about 2004, not 2002. Team orders were banned in 2004. I don't recall a single race in 2004 where Rubens had to let Michael through (if you remember one, let me know).

Again; it's not just about team orders. Rubens was not actually in competition with Michael. So long as they were teammates, he was never going to win a title. The allocation of parts, the strategy and every single aspect of Ferrari's approach was focused on Michael winning the title. Did you not watch F1 back then?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I don't rate Bottas any higher than Barrichello, so this whole argument that Hamilton has to compete against his teammate is a bit meaningless in 2019 context.


Not only was Schumacher quicker than Barrichello but Schumacher always had the bulletproof Ferrari, that made him impossible to beat over a season for Rubens. If the reliability/luck was switched in 2002, Rubens likely would have been World Champion. He had 4 mechanical DNFs and one none fault DNF collision at the start in Australia when he got rear ended from the lead. Schumachers had 0 all season.

The same way Rosberg battled - although he was a lot closer pace wise than Rubens - for a title in 2014 and took one in 2016.

Bottas can likewise fight for the title if Hamilton starts to break down again like 2016.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm 
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I wonder for how long Lewis can remain this motivated. He seems to want it just as badly as ever and is maintaining top focus and fine form. He certainly wants to maximise a very rare window of huge opportunity. Who stops Hamilton/Mercedes?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I wonder for how long Lewis can remain this motivated. He seems to want it just as badly as ever and is maintaining top focus and fine form. He certainly wants to maximise a very rare window of huge opportunity. Who stops Hamilton/Mercedes?

Both good questions. To the first question I would say that he will probably remain motivated so long as he has the team and car to fight for the championship. From here on out though, the next time he finds himself in a car that is nowhere relative to the leaders, he will almost certainly decide to walk away.

To the second question; I think you should start a poll. It's honestly a good question. Who will be the next WDC not named Hamilton? In 2017, I would have said Vettel. It seemed that Ferrari had come back into form and that he would eventually find himself at the top of the pile again. Now I'm not so sure about that. Ferrari have taken a step backwards this year and even when they had the car to win; he didn't get it done.

Perhaps Max. His driving is certainly top notch and Red Bull are actually struggling with their chassis right now more than their engine! I have to imagine that his time is almost here. Even if Red Bull don't get there; I have to believe that both Ferrari and Mercedes have an interest in securing his services. Maybe Charles. He has certainly shown flashes of brilliance (in addition to newby mistakes). Personally I don't see Bottas winning the title. He's not within the margin of Lewis to where luck can get him there.

Perhaps an even better question is; when will someone else win the title? It certainly isn't looking like this year and next year, with stable regs, would you bet against Hamilton to be WDC? I woudln't. Most people point to 2021 btu they pointed to this year and they also pointed to 2017. Mercedes have form when it comes to getting the new regs right. I almost hope that Lewis decides to shake things up and try going to Ferrari, if for no reason other than that it would be interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
2004 was an awful season in terms of sport


Imagine this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Form ... ampionship

Button was best of the rest and his best position was 2nd - only 4 times. I don't remember the specifics but out of those 4 times.. the Ferrari drivers had: Retired, 6th, 12th, 12th under their belts.... which usually translates to mistakes/problems.

People really don't know what a boring season is if they forget about this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:37 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
2004 was an awful season in terms of sport


Imagine this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Form ... ampionship

Button was best of the rest and his best position was 2nd - only 4 times. I don't remember the specifics but out of those 4 times.. the Ferrari drivers had: Retired, 6th, 12th, 12th under their belts.... which usually translates to mistakes/problems.

People really don't know what a boring season is if they forget about this year.


2004 actually wasn't too bad IMO. There were a few really decent races. I found 2002 much worse.

Monaco
USA
France
Belgium
Italy
China

All good grand prix's.

I found the actual races in 2015 and 2016 much more dull even if the championship battle was actually more exciting.


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