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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:25 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.

Yes there is a difference. Just because you are emotional about the topic, that doesn't change the fact that you are attempting to create a false equivalence between completely different things. None of the races you mentioned sacrificed Bottas in any way. I repeat, none of those races cost Bottas anything at all. If you look at a race like China 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018 or Barcelona 2018, Ferrari simply use Kimi as a road black trying to slow down Hamilton or make Mercedes consider him before pitting. They sacrifice his race to maximize Vettel's. That is a qualitatively different act.

Another thing; you actually have the audacity to complain about bias!? Really!? There is perhaps no regular poster in the forum (other than maybe masteracer) who is more biased than you are wheres my track record has been pretty clear that I am willing and able to call things like they are. You don't have a leg to stand on.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:30 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Why would they think they would be singled out on that given that an order was given to Kimi to let Vettel by?

Probably because Ferrari's win was under threat when Kimi got the order, and Mercedes had a 1-2 sewn up when Bottas got his.

Additionally, Ferrari have never made any secret of the fact that they employ team orders. They admit it, and their fans do as well. Mercedes and their fans are very fond of waxing on about how fair Mercedes is and how they don't favor one driver.

At the time Mercedes were clearly under more pressure than Ferrari.



Agreed. Quiet surprised how some have such a low opinion of Kimi.
He was within a second and had brand new boots as opposed to Lewis older ones. So I thought he had half a chance at least. But it looks like even with letting Ham/Bot race as they suggest; which would have meant neither Ham or Bottas being on the optimum race line, they still had no faith in Kimi to win through.


Actually, the "low opinion" of Kimi most often shows when Ferrari/Vettel critics choose to denigrate him in their effort claim how Lewis has it tough and claim Vettel has never had a competitive teammate. He only seems become "good" when it is convenient... Ie attempts to claim Kimi doesn't deserve to be given team orders. Why should you be surprised, shoot?

The point is, yes, Ferrari has used team orders... And so has Mercedes... And Seb is not the only title contender to have benefited from them. Had Merc and Lewis not tried so often to claim the high ground regarding team orders, this would be a non topic.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Yes there is a difference. Just because you are emotional about the topic, that doesn't change the fact that you are attempting to create a false equivalence between completely different things. None of the races you mentioned sacrificed Bottas in any way. I repeat, none of those races cost Bottas anything at all. If you look at a race like China 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018 or Barcelona 2018, Ferrari simply use Kimi as a road black trying to slow down Hamilton or make Mercedes consider him before pitting. They sacrifice his race to maximize Vettel's. That is a qualitatively different act.

China 2017 - Kimi proved that he was incapable of overtaking the Red Bull guys on equal tyres, so it made sense to go long and give him fresher tyres in the end.

Monaco 2017 - really? Vettel was just faster.

China 2018 - If Kimi pitted the lap after Vettel, he would have came out in 6th anyway. It was better to keep him out and give him fresher tyres at the end. It worked, he got past Hamilton thanks to his fresh mediums. Kimi would not have finished on the podium on Seb's strategy.

Barcelona 2018 - I can't even remember how this is supposed to be relevant

Now every time Ferrari keep Kimi out for longer and put him on a different strategy, it proves that he's a number 2?

What happened in Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017 and Germany 2018 were not holier team orders no matter how you want to rationalize them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:37 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.

Yes there is a difference. Just because you are emotional about the topic, that doesn't change the fact that you are attempting to create a false equivalence between completely different things. None of the races you mentioned sacrificed Bottas in any way. I repeat, none of those races cost Bottas anything at all. If you look at a race like China 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018 or Barcelona 2018, Ferrari simply use Kimi as a road black trying to slow down Hamilton or make Mercedes consider him before pitting. They sacrifice his race to maximize Vettel's. That is a qualitatively different act.

Another thing; you actually have the audacity to complain about bias!? Really!? There is perhaps no regular poster in the forum (other than maybe masteracer) who is more biased than you are wheres my track record has been pretty clear that I am willing and able to call things like they are. You don't have a leg to stand on.


I give up with reason with some folks.
Kimi is moved out the way or into the way with strategy in a lot of races.
Bottas is called off after all pit stops have occurred and he's behind his WDC challenging team mate near the end of the race and they want the 2 to be considered the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:04 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yes there is a difference. Just because you are emotional about the topic, that doesn't change the fact that you are attempting to create a false equivalence between completely different things. None of the races you mentioned sacrificed Bottas in any way. I repeat, none of those races cost Bottas anything at all. If you look at a race like China 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018 or Barcelona 2018, Ferrari simply use Kimi as a road black trying to slow down Hamilton or make Mercedes consider him before pitting. They sacrifice his race to maximize Vettel's. That is a qualitatively different act.

China 2017 - Kimi proved that he was incapable of overtaking the Red Bull guys on equal tyres, so it made sense to go long and give him fresher tyres in the end.

Monaco 2017 - really? Vettel was just faster.

China 2018 - If Kimi pitted the lap after Vettel, he would have came out in 6th anyway. It was better to keep him out and give him fresher tyres at the end. It worked, he got past Hamilton thanks to his fresh mediums. Kimi would not have finished on the podium on Seb's strategy.

Barcelona 2018 - I can't even remember how this is supposed to be relevant

Now every time Ferrari keep Kimi out for longer and put him on a different strategy, it proves that he's a number 2?

What happened in Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017 and Germany 2018 were not holier team orders no matter how you want to rationalize them.

In China 2017, they left Kimi out on track until he lost nearly 20 seconds just to try to get in Hamilton's way. They threw his race away in hopes that it might bring Vettel back into the race. Monaco 2017 they dumped Kimi into traffic and allowed Vettel to get past him in the pits. China 2018 they completely sacrificed his race and then, when the safety car gave them an opportunity to bring him back into it, they weren't even paying attention and didn't give him new tires. That's just off the top of my head. They have done this with Kimi several other times; using him as a blocker and sacrificing his race completely.

In Bahrain 2017, Bottas's race wasn't sacrificed AT ALL. The only thing they did by moving him out of the way was save Lewis a few seconds in having to make the pass himself. They were on different strategies and Lewis was MUCH faster than him (as is evidenced by the fact that he gapped Bottas dramatically after being let through). These are the kind of team orders that are logical and non-controversial. Barcelona 2017, not sure what you're talking about. The win was a race between Hamilton and Vettel. Bottas was never going to beat either of them and was not under threat from behind at all. He sacrificed NOTHING by staying out a bit longer than ideal. He didn't lose anything at all. In Germany 2018, Bottas was behind Hamilton. The order to hold station was to solidify the 1-2 finish and, considering how far back Bottas fell after the restart, he was never going to pass Lewis anyway. He had a great restart but that was his one and only chance to gain the position. The fact that people like you try to make it seem like Hamilton needed team orders to win that race is totally irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Blake wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Why would they think they would be singled out on that given that an order was given to Kimi to let Vettel by?

Probably because Ferrari's win was under threat when Kimi got the order, and Mercedes had a 1-2 sewn up when Bottas got his.

Additionally, Ferrari have never made any secret of the fact that they employ team orders. They admit it, and their fans do as well. Mercedes and their fans are very fond of waxing on about how fair Mercedes is and how they don't favor one driver.

At the time Mercedes were clearly under more pressure than Ferrari.



Agreed. Quiet surprised how some have such a low opinion of Kimi.
He was within a second and had brand new boots as opposed to Lewis older ones. So I thought he had half a chance at least. But it looks like even with letting Ham/Bot race as they suggest; which would have meant neither Ham or Bottas being on the optimum race line, they still had no faith in Kimi to win through.


Actually, the "low opinion" of Kimi most often shows when Ferrari/Vettel critics choose to denigrate him in their effort claim how Lewis has it tough and claim Vettel has never had a competitive teammate. He only seems become "good" when it is convenient... Ie attempts to claim Kimi doesn't deserve to be given team orders. Why should you be surprised, shoot?

The point is, yes, Ferrari has used team orders... And so has Mercedes... And Seb is not the only title contender to have benefited from them. Had Merc and Lewis not tried so often to claim the high ground regarding team orders, this would be a non topic.

Actually I don't believe that Ferrari have ever taken the high ground on team orders, acknowledgement of team orders I would see more of a changing stance from some Ferrari fans.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Agreed. Quiet surprised how some have such a low opinion of Kimi.
He was within a second and had brand new boots as opposed to Lewis older ones. So I thought he had half a chance at least. But it looks like even with letting Ham/Bot race as they suggest; which would have meant neither Ham or Bottas being on the optimum race line, they still had no faith in Kimi to win through.


Actually, the "low opinion" of Kimi most often shows when Ferrari/Vettel critics choose to denigrate him in their effort claim how Lewis has it tough and claim Vettel has never had a competitive teammate. He only seems become "good" when it is convenient... Ie attempts to claim Kimi doesn't deserve to be given team orders. Why should you be surprised, shoot?

The point is, yes, Ferrari has used team orders... And so has Mercedes... And Seb is not the only title contender to have benefited from them. Had Merc and Lewis not tried so often to claim the high ground regarding team orders, this would be a non topic.

Actually I don't believe that Ferrari have ever taken the high ground on team orders, acknowledgement of team orders I would see more of a changing stance from some Ferrari fans.

???

As for the "changing stance" on team orders, I think in MY 16 year history in this forum on the subject of team orders I been quite consistent. Can you say the same?
;)

Are you trying to play a "donnie trump" on us here, poker? Diversion?

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Last edited by Blake on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:25 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yes there is a difference. Just because you are emotional about the topic, that doesn't change the fact that you are attempting to create a false equivalence between completely different things. None of the races you mentioned sacrificed Bottas in any way. I repeat, none of those races cost Bottas anything at all. If you look at a race like China 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018 or Barcelona 2018, Ferrari simply use Kimi as a road black trying to slow down Hamilton or make Mercedes consider him before pitting. They sacrifice his race to maximize Vettel's. That is a qualitatively different act.

China 2017 - Kimi proved that he was incapable of overtaking the Red Bull guys on equal tyres, so it made sense to go long and give him fresher tyres in the end.

Monaco 2017 - really? Vettel was just faster.

China 2018 - If Kimi pitted the lap after Vettel, he would have came out in 6th anyway. It was better to keep him out and give him fresher tyres at the end. It worked, he got past Hamilton thanks to his fresh mediums. Kimi would not have finished on the podium on Seb's strategy.

Barcelona 2018 - I can't even remember how this is supposed to be relevant

Now every time Ferrari keep Kimi out for longer and put him on a different strategy, it proves that he's a number 2?

What happened in Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017 and Germany 2018 were not holier team orders no matter how you want to rationalize them.


You really believe in China the reason Kimi was kept out was so he could have fresher tyres at the end? :lol: come on now. Ferrari completely sacrificed his race like they did in Germany. Not that I have problem with this but to try and make out it was to the benefit of Kimi is funny.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:49 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yes there is a difference. Just because you are emotional about the topic, that doesn't change the fact that you are attempting to create a false equivalence between completely different things. None of the races you mentioned sacrificed Bottas in any way. I repeat, none of those races cost Bottas anything at all. If you look at a race like China 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018 or Barcelona 2018, Ferrari simply use Kimi as a road black trying to slow down Hamilton or make Mercedes consider him before pitting. They sacrifice his race to maximize Vettel's. That is a qualitatively different act.

China 2017 - Kimi proved that he was incapable of overtaking the Red Bull guys on equal tyres, so it made sense to go long and give him fresher tyres in the end.

Monaco 2017 - really? Vettel was just faster.

China 2018 - If Kimi pitted the lap after Vettel, he would have came out in 6th anyway. It was better to keep him out and give him fresher tyres at the end. It worked, he got past Hamilton thanks to his fresh mediums. Kimi would not have finished on the podium on Seb's strategy.

Barcelona 2018 - I can't even remember how this is supposed to be relevant

Now every time Ferrari keep Kimi out for longer and put him on a different strategy, it proves that he's a number 2?

What happened in Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017 and Germany 2018 were not holier team orders no matter how you want to rationalize them.


China 2018, they needed to pit Kimi much much earlier than that and he would have maintained 4th or if they felt bold even earlier to attempt to undercut Verstappen to take P3.

Vettel is not relevant to Kimi's strategy in any way, he was 14 seconds ahead of him and not racing him.

Saying it worked is ridiculous, he was 2 seconds ahead of Hamilton and by the time he came out from his stop was 17 seconds behind, it was only through a SC he eventually got Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Agreed. Quiet surprised how some have such a low opinion of Kimi.
He was within a second and had brand new boots as opposed to Lewis older ones. So I thought he had half a chance at least. But it looks like even with letting Ham/Bot race as they suggest; which would have meant neither Ham or Bottas being on the optimum race line, they still had no faith in Kimi to win through.


Actually, the "low opinion" of Kimi most often shows when Ferrari/Vettel critics choose to denigrate him in their effort claim how Lewis has it tough and claim Vettel has never had a competitive teammate. He only seems become "good" when it is convenient... Ie attempts to claim Kimi doesn't deserve to be given team orders. Why should you be surprised, shoot?

The point is, yes, Ferrari has used team orders... And so has Mercedes... And Seb is not the only title contender to have benefited from them. Had Merc and Lewis not tried so often to claim the high ground regarding team orders, this would be a non topic.

Actually I don't believe that Ferrari have ever taken the high ground on team orders, acknowledgement of team orders I would see more of a changing stance from some Ferrari fans.

???

As for the "changing stance" on team orders, I think in MY 16 year history in this forum on the subject of team orders I been quite consistent. Can you say the same?
;)

Are you trying to play a "donnie trump" on us here, poker? Diversion?

Well it's a reply to your post but also a generalisation, I think in respect to Hungary last year there seemed to be some denials that Kimi was protecting the position of Vettel in his damaged Ferrari was nothing to do with team orders, I guess such things have to be spelled out on the radio for it to be true?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:18 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.


He definitely is from now on, 80 odd points behind Hamilton. But his strategy today was purely to cover Kimi who was used to try to force Mercedes to 2 stop whilst Vettel 1 stopped.. It worked too because it left Bottas out on old tyres at the end. That strategy might have won Vettel the race if Kimi was able to get up to P2 at the start.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:31 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:37 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

Yes, they did similar to what they did in Australia. Pitting Kimi early to force Mercedes. There was also a 15 lap window that if a SC came out Vettel won this race. Mercedes took a risk with that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:21 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.


Rubbish.

A lot of people have sat there and said "Ferrari should just implement team orders" in favour of Seb. It makes perfect sense.

I'm a Lewis fan and I have not been a fan of team orders. Only once did I kick up a fuss and it wasn't even in favour of my driver or team.. it was Fernando/Massa. When they completely denied it (even though it was breaching the rules).. yet everyone outside of Ferrari knew it was team orders.. it was shameful.. embarrassing and awkward mainly because it was banned.

So I say what I said last season and the one before. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to prioritise Seb because if anyone of us placed a bet.. we would on him.. not Kimi.

I'd say it was more unjust for Merc to use team orders because at times Bottas seems to be able to out qualify and out perform Lewis. BUT it's at that point now where Merc need to make the choice. You also failed to mention the race where Lewis was ordered to move out of the way for Bottas. Although it wasn't quite an order, it was a different strat call.

Typical "Oh you're a Lewis fan" garbage.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.


Rubbish.

A lot of people have sat there and said "Ferrari should just implement team orders" in favour of Seb. It makes perfect sense.

I'm a Lewis fan and I have not been a fan of team orders. Only once did I kick up a fuss and it wasn't even in favour of my driver or team.. it was Fernando/Massa. When they completely denied it (even though it was breaching the rules).. yet everyone outside of Ferrari knew it was team orders.. it was shameful.. embarrassing and awkward mainly because it was banned.

So I say what I said last season and the one before. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to prioritise Seb because if anyone of us placed a bet.. we would on him.. not Kimi.

I'd say it was more unjust for Merc to use team orders because at times Bottas seems to be able to out qualify and out perform Lewis. BUT it's at that point now where Merc need to make the choice. You also failed to mention the race where Lewis was ordered to move out of the way for Bottas. Although it wasn't quite an order, it was a different strat call.

Typical "Oh you're a Lewis fan" garbage.


Did you, as a Lewis fan, also kick up a fuss when Kovaleinen had to move over for Lewis in Germany, back when team orders were not allowed?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:49 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

Generally speaking Ferrari sacrificing Kimi's strategy for the benefit of Vettel puts Mercedes in a difficult position of doing likewise with Bottas, Kimi seems quite happy to do this, Bottas not so much.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:53 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.


Rubbish.

A lot of people have sat there and said "Ferrari should just implement team orders" in favour of Seb. It makes perfect sense.

I'm a Lewis fan and I have not been a fan of team orders. Only once did I kick up a fuss and it wasn't even in favour of my driver or team.. it was Fernando/Massa. When they completely denied it (even though it was breaching the rules).. yet everyone outside of Ferrari knew it was team orders.. it was shameful.. embarrassing and awkward mainly because it was banned.

So I say what I said last season and the one before. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to prioritise Seb because if anyone of us placed a bet.. we would on him.. not Kimi.

I'd say it was more unjust for Merc to use team orders because at times Bottas seems to be able to out qualify and out perform Lewis. BUT it's at that point now where Merc need to make the choice. You also failed to mention the race where Lewis was ordered to move out of the way for Bottas. Although it wasn't quite an order, it was a different strat call.

Typical "Oh you're a Lewis fan" garbage.


Did you, as a Lewis fan, also kick up a fuss when Kovaleinen had to move over for Lewis in Germany, back when team orders were not allowed?

He was 1 to 2 seconds slower than Hamilton and ended up finishing 5th whilst Hamilton won the race, I believe that McLaren paid Heikki's wages and not the likes of Ferrari.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I totally acknowledge that all teams use team orders but there is a difference between how some teams use them and how others do.

Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.


Rubbish.

A lot of people have sat there and said "Ferrari should just implement team orders" in favour of Seb. It makes perfect sense.

I'm a Lewis fan and I have not been a fan of team orders. Only once did I kick up a fuss and it wasn't even in favour of my driver or team.. it was Fernando/Massa. When they completely denied it (even though it was breaching the rules).. yet everyone outside of Ferrari knew it was team orders.. it was shameful.. embarrassing and awkward mainly because it was banned.

So I say what I said last season and the one before. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to prioritise Seb because if anyone of us placed a bet.. we would on him.. not Kimi.

I'd say it was more unjust for Merc to use team orders because at times Bottas seems to be able to out qualify and out perform Lewis. BUT it's at that point now where Merc need to make the choice. You also failed to mention the race where Lewis was ordered to move out of the way for Bottas. Although it wasn't quite an order, it was a different strat call.

Typical "Oh you're a Lewis fan" garbage.


Did you, as a Lewis fan, also kick up a fuss when Kovaleinen had to move over for Lewis in Germany, back when team orders were not allowed?

He was 1 to 2 seconds slower than Hamilton and ended up finishing 5th whilst Hamilton won the race, I believe that McLaren paid Heikki's wages and not the likes of Ferrari.


That's not the point though, is it? He was given an order (something about cats being out of the building or some sort from memory), as simple as. Alonso was also "faster than you" and won the race.

What does the last part have to do?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

Generally speaking Ferrari sacrificing Kimi's strategy for the benefit of Vettel puts Mercedes in a difficult position of doing likewise with Bottas, Kimi seems quite happy to do this, Bottas not so much.

I was thinking they should leave Bottas out and run their own race, not sure whether that would have been the best option or not but it was my gut feeling...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:48 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

Generally speaking Ferrari sacrificing Kimi's strategy for the benefit of Vettel puts Mercedes in a difficult position of doing likewise with Bottas, Kimi seems quite happy to do this, Bottas not so much.

I was thinking they should leave Bottas out and run their own race, not sure whether that would have been the best option or not but it was my gut feeling...

No Bottas needed to maintain track position on Kimi. Raikkonen had a lot more pace than Bottas on the day and if he got in front of Valteri, he would easily have beaten him. In the end, Bottas couldn't quite hold on but Mercedes did the best they could for him strategically. Arguably they could have played it the way you suggest and maybe finished fourth but doing what they did made 2nd possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

Generally speaking Ferrari sacrificing Kimi's strategy for the benefit of Vettel puts Mercedes in a difficult position of doing likewise with Bottas, Kimi seems quite happy to do this, Bottas not so much.

I was thinking they should leave Bottas out and run their own race, not sure whether that would have been the best option or not but it was my gut feeling...

No Bottas needed to maintain track position on Kimi. Raikkonen had a lot more pace than Bottas on the day and if he got in front of Valteri, he would easily have beaten him. In the end, Bottas couldn't quite hold on but Mercedes did the best they could for him strategically. Arguably they could have played it the way you suggest and maybe finished fourth but doing what they did made 2nd possible.

Which is your opinion which can neither be proven or disproved, Kimi went to two stops and Bottas one so you would expect Kimi to be faster - the question is whether he'd have got out ahead of Bottas on the second stop or not if Bottas stopped later which can't be answered as it didn't happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:18 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Which is your opinion which can neither be proven or disproved, Kimi went to two stops and Bottas one so you would expect Kimi to be faster - the question is whether he'd have got out ahead of Bottas on the second stop or not if Bottas stopped later which can't be answered as it didn't happen.


Bottas was slow though, his lack of pace on new tyres basically gave P2 to Vettel. It was only heavy traffic + slow stop that brought him back into play. Vettel was set to emerge from the pits 3-4 seconds ahead of Bottas before both of those occurrences.

Bottas had 16 lap fresher tyres than Vettel yet dropped 9 seconds to him in 18 laps, exactly 0.5 per lap with a huge tyre advantage. Kimi in comparison, over the same period matched Vettel. All or one of the following things occured.

- Bottas had poor pace on the soft
- Ferrari had a very fast car, especially Vettel
- Tyre degradation wasn't that high
- Vettel did an amazing job saving tyres in the first stint


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

BIB just wreaks of bias. Bottas broke his own wing. His tires were done and he couldn't hit the apex.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

BIB just wreaks of bias. Bottas broke his own wing. His tires were done and he couldn't hit the apex.

I think it reads as the contact broke his wing, not Sebastian. Sandman can clear this obviously, but I do not think that it is bias, the contact broke his wing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

BIB just wreaks of bias. Bottas broke his own wing. His tires were done and he couldn't hit the apex.

I think it reads as the contact broke his wing, not Sebastian. Sandman can clear this obviously, but I do not think that it is bias, the contact broke his wing.

Understood... it's just incorrectly worded.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

BIB just wreaks of bias. Bottas broke his own wing. His tires were done and he couldn't hit the apex.

I think it reads as the contact broke his wing, not Sebastian. Sandman can clear this obviously, but I do not think that it is bias, the contact broke his wing.

Understood... it's just incorrectly worded.

No it's not. The contact with Seb is what broke Bottas's wing.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Nah there is no difference. You are a Lewis/Mercedes fan, therefore you automatically see any team orders in favour of Lewis (Bahrain 2017, Spain 2017, Germany 2018) as "correct" while you view similar tactics used by Ferrari as unjust.

At Austria, both Mercedes were out of the race and Ferrari let Kimi finish ahead of Seb.


Rubbish.

A lot of people have sat there and said "Ferrari should just implement team orders" in favour of Seb. It makes perfect sense.

I'm a Lewis fan and I have not been a fan of team orders. Only once did I kick up a fuss and it wasn't even in favour of my driver or team.. it was Fernando/Massa. When they completely denied it (even though it was breaching the rules).. yet everyone outside of Ferrari knew it was team orders.. it was shameful.. embarrassing and awkward mainly because it was banned.

So I say what I said last season and the one before. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to prioritise Seb because if anyone of us placed a bet.. we would on him.. not Kimi.

I'd say it was more unjust for Merc to use team orders because at times Bottas seems to be able to out qualify and out perform Lewis. BUT it's at that point now where Merc need to make the choice. You also failed to mention the race where Lewis was ordered to move out of the way for Bottas. Although it wasn't quite an order, it was a different strat call.

Typical "Oh you're a Lewis fan" garbage.


Did you, as a Lewis fan, also kick up a fuss when Kovaleinen had to move over for Lewis in Germany, back when team orders were not allowed?

He was 1 to 2 seconds slower than Hamilton and ended up finishing 5th whilst Hamilton won the race, I believe that McLaren paid Heikki's wages and not the likes of Ferrari.


That's not the point though, is it? He was given an order (something about cats being out of the building or some sort from memory), as simple as. Alonso was also "faster than you" and won the race.

What does the last part have to do?

It means he drove for McLaren, not for you, Ferrari or anyone else, by the way I was perfectly fine with the "Alonso is faster than you".

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:30 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Now Toto Wolff called Bottas a wingman :lol:

He really is a wingman in every sense.

Bottas was 5 laps away from finishing second. They did the best strategy possible for him on the day. If not for the contact with Seb breaking his wing, he finishes that race on the podium. Raikkonen, on the other hand, was sacrificed once again in this race with an early pit-stop and then a switch to a 3-stop strategy; not to mention not being given the opportunity to use his pace either in the first or last stint.

Generally speaking Ferrari sacrificing Kimi's strategy for the benefit of Vettel puts Mercedes in a difficult position of doing likewise with Bottas, Kimi seems quite happy to do this, Bottas not so much.

I was thinking they should leave Bottas out and run their own race, not sure whether that would have been the best option or not but it was my gut feeling...

I think Mercedes could have reasoned that Kimi's tyres would not have lasted and needn't worry about losing position to Kimi as such, the puzzling thing was the ability of Vettel to overcut Bottas which perhaps showed that Bottas had a general lack of pace?

Nevertheless if Kimi had undercut Bottas then he could have controlled Bottas' pace giving Vettel an easy overcut to hunt down Hamilton so they had to cover that although they could have left it about 3 laps later making it a slightly better 1 stop strategy for Bottas, Mercedes said they didn't want to risk staying out to long and messing up which is basically what Vettel did after he had already established the over cut on Bottas.

As an overview I don't believe that Bottas had the pace to beat Vettel so maintaining track position was probably the best strategy for second place, conversely if Vettel had overcut Bottas then Bottas would have finished in 3rd place quite easily probably like Kimi going to a 2 stop and maybe closing back on Vettel although probably too far back to catch him.

Unfortunately for Bottas once Kimi made the early stop it made him vulnerable and you could argue the strategy he was given gave him the best chance for second place even though ultimately both his tyres and race fell apart.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:44 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Sharknose wrote:
Mod Edit: Offensive Post Removed

What exactly was offensive about this post?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Sharknose wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Mod Edit: Offensive Post Removed

What exactly was offensive about this post?

I'd try the feedback thread for questions like that...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:03 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Mod Edit: Offensive Post Removed

What exactly was offensive about this post?

I'd try the feedback thread for questions like that...

Or just PM a mod. They respond pretty quickly in my experience.

(I never saw your post, so I can't help you)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:05 am 
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Sharknose wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Mod Edit: Offensive Post Removed

What exactly was offensive about this post?



Check your pm

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:10 am 
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Great drive by Lewis this weekend in the slower car. If he can keep this up Vettel and Ferrari will buckle under pressure and hand him the WDC.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:26 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

Rubbish.

A lot of people have sat there and said "Ferrari should just implement team orders" in favour of Seb. It makes perfect sense.

I'm a Lewis fan and I have not been a fan of team orders. Only once did I kick up a fuss and it wasn't even in favour of my driver or team.. it was Fernando/Massa. When they completely denied it (even though it was breaching the rules).. yet everyone outside of Ferrari knew it was team orders.. it was shameful.. embarrassing and awkward mainly because it was banned.

So I say what I said last season and the one before. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to prioritise Seb because if anyone of us placed a bet.. we would on him.. not Kimi.

I'd say it was more unjust for Merc to use team orders because at times Bottas seems to be able to out qualify and out perform Lewis. BUT it's at that point now where Merc need to make the choice. You also failed to mention the race where Lewis was ordered to move out of the way for Bottas. Although it wasn't quite an order, it was a different strat call.

Typical "Oh you're a Lewis fan" garbage.


Did you, as a Lewis fan, also kick up a fuss when Kovaleinen had to move over for Lewis in Germany, back when team orders were not allowed?

He was 1 to 2 seconds slower than Hamilton and ended up finishing 5th whilst Hamilton won the race, I believe that McLaren paid Heikki's wages and not the likes of Ferrari.


That's not the point though, is it? He was given an order (something about cats being out of the building or some sort from memory), as simple as. Alonso was also "faster than you" and won the race.

What does the last part have to do?

It means he drove for McLaren, not for you, Ferrari or anyone else, by the way I was perfectly fine with the "Alonso is faster than you".


So what are you arguing about? You are saying the same thing, that Macca gave a coded order to Heiki. At a time that the orders were not permitted.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Did you, as a Lewis fan, also kick up a fuss when Kovaleinen had to move over for Lewis in Germany, back when team orders were not allowed?

He was 1 to 2 seconds slower than Hamilton and ended up finishing 5th whilst Hamilton won the race, I believe that McLaren paid Heikki's wages and not the likes of Ferrari.


That's not the point though, is it? He was given an order (something about cats being out of the building or some sort from memory), as simple as. Alonso was also "faster than you" and won the race.

What does the last part have to do?

It means he drove for McLaren, not for you, Ferrari or anyone else, by the way I was perfectly fine with the "Alonso is faster than you".


So what are you arguing about? You are saying the same thing, that Macca gave a coded order to Heiki. At a time that the orders were not permitted.

I've lost track were we are going with this, Ferrari made a quite obvious message in 2010 when team orders were not permitted, what are you trying to say?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I've lost track were we are going with this, Ferrari made a quite obvious message in 2010 when team orders were not permitted, what are you trying to say?

That you (or any other Hamilton fan, by extension) had no right to kick up a furor over Alonso benefiting from team orders due to the fact that Hamilton received a similar order in his favor in a prior year - when team orders were also banned. The case would be that the incidents are the same, so it's hypocritical to complain about one while accepting the other.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:18 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've lost track were we are going with this, Ferrari made a quite obvious message in 2010 when team orders were not permitted, what are you trying to say?

That you (or any other Hamilton fan, by extension) had no right to kick up a furor over Alonso benefiting from team orders due to the fact that Hamilton received a similar order in his favor in a prior year - when team orders were also banned. The case would be that the incidents are the same, so it's hypocritical to complain about one while accepting the other.

What about Hamilton fans who disagree with him getting team orders helping him?


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