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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I agree with everything in the video and its a good one, but one thing.

They could have easily got VB 3rd place by pitting him between laps 21-26. Kimi pitted on lap 21. Bottas was 1 second behind Max all of those laps and would have easily undercut him. Verstappen pitted on lap 27.

They left him out to hold up Kimi and by doing so knew they also gave VB a very good chance to get 3rd with a tyre offset. But its BS that they did everything to guarantee VB 3rd, if that was true he would have pitted laps 22-26. It was great team work, they should just tell it as it is instead of glossing over "we decided early to go long with Bottas" is BS.

You're missing the nuance of the situation. If they came out into the pit lane for Bottas during the window you're referring to, Red Bull would have sent Max's crew out into the pit lane immediately to react. They would not have given Bottas the undercut. It would have basically been exactly the same as the Hamilton/Raikkonen situation.

So why did they try it with Hamilton? They could have at least tried it. The earlier Verstappen pitted, the better it was for Bottas too as it would have meant an even larger tyre off set. Bottas was obviously quicker. If Max's tyres were 5 laps older at the end of the race Bottas may have passed him actually on track (not that it mattered in the end)

A side note to this, the WCC winners choose if they want first or last pit stop - why don't Mercedes choose the garage furthest from the entry. That way your mechanics can come out after your driver has entered the pits so can't be countered in that way.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JN23 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
What a steal from Hamilton and Mercedes to extend both championship leads in Monza, and this time didn’t even need rain. But there are no tracks left on the calendar that scream Mercedes. Perhaps Suzuka and COTA. Either way it’s gonna be difficult to win the championships against the faster Ferrari which has no weak track at all. Still gonna be thrilling to watch Hamilton attempt to pull it off.


Hamilton was superb all weekend, where does his drive on Sunday rank amongst his best?

Interesting to see what happens at Singapore, on the face of it after recent years it will be another 'damage limitation' but Merc and Hamilton are doing a good job of winning those recently.

The more I think about it, the more I think this was a really good performance by Hamilton. He constantly harassed Kimi and never gave him room to breathe in the first stint, all the while managing to keep his tyres in good condition despite running so close to Kimi. I think that was quite impressive and he looked dangerous all race long.

The only negative I can think of is that he/Mercedes left him out too long in the first stint and they ended up giving Kimi room to stretch his legs without pressure from behind. If Kimi hadn't done his tyres in - which they couldn't predict - that could have effectively ended their challenge and if Kimi had gotten past Bottas that would have been it. But I'd put that down as a Mercedes strategy mistake (or perhaps risky strategy might be the better terminology), rather than a driver one.

Actually by staying out the way that he did, Hamilton basically baited Kimi into pushing his tires too hard too soon. Having had no practice with the softs, Kimi basically came out of the pits pushing like crazy to avoid the overcut. Hamilton stretched out this period of time where he was pushing on the SS tires and Kimi basically fried his new soft tires by driving hot laps for about 5-6 laps fresh out of the pits.

I think the part of the race where Kimi was behind Bottas was relatively inconsequential with regards to the tires. It did make it a lot easier for Hamilton to close out Kimi's lead but from what I saw, Kimi was never going to win the race after running so hard on those new tires. They were completely dead for like the last 15 laps of the race and his pace vanished at the end completely. I don't think he was going to be able to keep Hamilton behind. I think Ferrari should have brought at least one more set of those soft tires and tried running them before the race.

we've seen drivers pushing like crazy on new tyres before without damaging them, to be fair. I don't think Mercedes specifically chose that strategy in order to fry Kimi's tyres.
Even if Kimi had stopped pushing earlier than he did, and assuming that it was his fault that the tyres went, he was taking a second a lap out of Hamilton's lead and if the tyres hadn't given way that would have left Lewis with a mountain to climb. I'd heard it said that Mercedes were holding out against the possibility of a SC, but effectively it almost undid all of Hamilton's work in putting the pressure on Kimi earlier. Once it was apparent that Hamilton wasn't going any faster than Kimi after the stops, they probably should have brought Hamilton in.

This is all academic, of course. At the end of the day it all worked to perfection and Lewis pulled off an impressive win. I just can't help but feel that his strategists almost let him down by letting Kimi build up too much of a lead and giving him space to breathe that until then he'd been denied. Lewis was 5 seconds down the road when he rejoined and he had to put in some even faster times than Kimi had just to catch up

My feeling watching it at the time was that Mercedes saw Hamilton's improved sector times once Kimi was out of his way and decided to leave him out in the belief that his tyres were still in good condition and so he could match or even beat Kimi's pace on the softs. When Kimi then started setting even faster times they realised they had missed their chance and that their best approach then was to leave Hamilton out and rely on him passing Kimi with fresher tyres at the end. That Bottas was well placed to aid this strategy along by holding Kimi up was a bonus. I agree that they had no idea Kimi's tyres were going to fall to pieces, so they got a bit lucky in this regard. I thought at the time that Mercedes had messed up by not pitting Hamilton the lap after Kimi did as he stood a decent chance of emerging ahead, especially after Mercedes' shenanigans with their pit crew impeding Kimi's entry to his pit box.

I still believe that it was Hamilton's pace on the supersofts that forced Kimi to take too much out of his tyres early on in the stint and ultimately won him the race. Definitely one of his more impressive wins if you ask me.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:26 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We might have to hope that Red Bull can challenge Ferrari at Singapore?


Even if they do, only one of them is likely to finish.


And possibility that Ricciardo will start from the back?

Apparently he has an old engine he can still use.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
What a steal from Hamilton and Mercedes to extend both championship leads in Monza, and this time didn’t even need rain. But there are no tracks left on the calendar that scream Mercedes. Perhaps Suzuka and COTA. Either way it’s gonna be difficult to win the championships against the faster Ferrari which has no weak track at all. Still gonna be thrilling to watch Hamilton attempt to pull it off.


Hamilton was superb all weekend, where does his drive on Sunday rank amongst his best?

Interesting to see what happens at Singapore, on the face of it after recent years it will be another 'damage limitation' but Merc and Hamilton are doing a good job of winning those recently.

We might have to hope that Red Bull can challenge Ferrari at Singapore?

Given that Monza was supposed to have been a damage limitation exercise for Mercedes, I'm not at all convinced that they will be trailing in Singapore

They have history of trailing at Singapore even when they've had the best car, unless it rains of course like last year. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
What a steal from Hamilton and Mercedes to extend both championship leads in Monza, and this time didn’t even need rain. But there are no tracks left on the calendar that scream Mercedes. Perhaps Suzuka and COTA. Either way it’s gonna be difficult to win the championships against the faster Ferrari which has no weak track at all. Still gonna be thrilling to watch Hamilton attempt to pull it off.


Hamilton was superb all weekend, where does his drive on Sunday rank amongst his best?

Interesting to see what happens at Singapore, on the face of it after recent years it will be another 'damage limitation' but Merc and Hamilton are doing a good job of winning those recently.

We might have to hope that Red Bull can challenge Ferrari at Singapore?

Given that Monza was supposed to have been a damage limitation exercise for Mercedes, I'm not at all convinced that they will be trailing in Singapore

They have history of trailing at Singapore even when they've had the best car, unless it rains of course like last year. :)

They were trailing last year as well, until the three fastest cars all smashed each other out...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:40 pm 
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j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JN23 wrote:

Hamilton was superb all weekend, where does his drive on Sunday rank amongst his best?

Interesting to see what happens at Singapore, on the face of it after recent years it will be another 'damage limitation' but Merc and Hamilton are doing a good job of winning those recently.

The more I think about it, the more I think this was a really good performance by Hamilton. He constantly harassed Kimi and never gave him room to breathe in the first stint, all the while managing to keep his tyres in good condition despite running so close to Kimi. I think that was quite impressive and he looked dangerous all race long.

The only negative I can think of is that he/Mercedes left him out too long in the first stint and they ended up giving Kimi room to stretch his legs without pressure from behind. If Kimi hadn't done his tyres in - which they couldn't predict - that could have effectively ended their challenge and if Kimi had gotten past Bottas that would have been it. But I'd put that down as a Mercedes strategy mistake (or perhaps risky strategy might be the better terminology), rather than a driver one.

Actually by staying out the way that he did, Hamilton basically baited Kimi into pushing his tires too hard too soon. Having had no practice with the softs, Kimi basically came out of the pits pushing like crazy to avoid the overcut. Hamilton stretched out this period of time where he was pushing on the SS tires and Kimi basically fried his new soft tires by driving hot laps for about 5-6 laps fresh out of the pits.

I think the part of the race where Kimi was behind Bottas was relatively inconsequential with regards to the tires. It did make it a lot easier for Hamilton to close out Kimi's lead but from what I saw, Kimi was never going to win the race after running so hard on those new tires. They were completely dead for like the last 15 laps of the race and his pace vanished at the end completely. I don't think he was going to be able to keep Hamilton behind. I think Ferrari should have brought at least one more set of those soft tires and tried running them before the race.

we've seen drivers pushing like crazy on new tyres before without damaging them, to be fair. I don't think Mercedes specifically chose that strategy in order to fry Kimi's tyres.
Even if Kimi had stopped pushing earlier than he did, and assuming that it was his fault that the tyres went, he was taking a second a lap out of Hamilton's lead and if the tyres hadn't given way that would have left Lewis with a mountain to climb. I'd heard it said that Mercedes were holding out against the possibility of a SC, but effectively it almost undid all of Hamilton's work in putting the pressure on Kimi earlier. Once it was apparent that Hamilton wasn't going any faster than Kimi after the stops, they probably should have brought Hamilton in.

This is all academic, of course. At the end of the day it all worked to perfection and Lewis pulled off an impressive win. I just can't help but feel that his strategists almost let him down by letting Kimi build up too much of a lead and giving him space to breathe that until then he'd been denied. Lewis was 5 seconds down the road when he rejoined and he had to put in some even faster times than Kimi had just to catch up

My feeling watching it at the time was that Mercedes saw Hamilton's improved sector times once Kimi was out of his way and decided to leave him out in the belief that his tyres were still in good condition and so he could match or even beat Kimi's pace on the softs. When Kimi then started setting even faster times they realised they had missed their chance and that their best approach then was to leave Hamilton out and rely on him passing Kimi with fresher tyres at the end. That Bottas was well placed to aid this strategy along by holding Kimi up was a bonus. I agree that they had no idea Kimi's tyres were going to fall to pieces, so they got a bit lucky in this regard. I thought at the time that Mercedes had messed up by not pitting Hamilton the lap after Kimi did as he stood a decent chance of emerging ahead, especially after Mercedes' shenanigans with their pit crew impeding Kimi's entry to his pit box.

I still believe that it was Hamilton's pace on the supersofts that forced Kimi to take too much out of his tyres early on in the stint and ultimately won him the race. Definitely one of his more impressive wins if you ask me.

yes, that's how I saw it, too :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:23 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Hamilton was superb all weekend, where does his drive on Sunday rank amongst his best?

Interesting to see what happens at Singapore, on the face of it after recent years it will be another 'damage limitation' but Merc and Hamilton are doing a good job of winning those recently.

We might have to hope that Red Bull can challenge Ferrari at Singapore?

Given that Monza was supposed to have been a damage limitation exercise for Mercedes, I'm not at all convinced that they will be trailing in Singapore

They have history of trailing at Singapore even when they've had the best car, unless it rains of course like last year. :)

They were trailing last year as well, until the three fastest cars all smashed each other out...

Well that also helped :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:38 am 
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Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I agree with everything in the video and its a good one, but one thing.

They could have easily got VB 3rd place by pitting him between laps 21-26. Kimi pitted on lap 21. Bottas was 1 second behind Max all of those laps and would have easily undercut him. Verstappen pitted on lap 27.

They left him out to hold up Kimi and by doing so knew they also gave VB a very good chance to get 3rd with a tyre offset. But its BS that they did everything to guarantee VB 3rd, if that was true he would have pitted laps 22-26. It was great team work, they should just tell it as it is instead of glossing over "we decided early to go long with Bottas" is BS.

You're missing the nuance of the situation. If they came out into the pit lane for Bottas during the window you're referring to, Red Bull would have sent Max's crew out into the pit lane immediately to react. They would not have given Bottas the undercut. It would have basically been exactly the same as the Hamilton/Raikkonen situation.

So why did they try it with Hamilton? They could have at least tried it. The earlier Verstappen pitted, the better it was for Bottas too as it would have meant an even larger tyre off set. Bottas was obviously quicker. If Max's tyres were 5 laps older at the end of the race Bottas may have passed him actually on track (not that it mattered in the end)

A side note to this, the WCC winners choose if they want first or last pit stop - why don't Mercedes choose the garage furthest from the entry. That way your mechanics can come out after your driver has entered the pits so can't be countered in that way.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the pit boxes get progressively smaller the further you go down the pit lane? I’m sure I remember seeing a report stating that when McLaren first lost their position at the top table and they were saying it was going to be a bit difficult for them to shoehorn their massive operation in at some circuits


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I agree with everything in the video and its a good one, but one thing.

They could have easily got VB 3rd place by pitting him between laps 21-26. Kimi pitted on lap 21. Bottas was 1 second behind Max all of those laps and would have easily undercut him. Verstappen pitted on lap 27.

They left him out to hold up Kimi and by doing so knew they also gave VB a very good chance to get 3rd with a tyre offset. But its BS that they did everything to guarantee VB 3rd, if that was true he would have pitted laps 22-26. It was great team work, they should just tell it as it is instead of glossing over "we decided early to go long with Bottas" is BS.

You're missing the nuance of the situation. If they came out into the pit lane for Bottas during the window you're referring to, Red Bull would have sent Max's crew out into the pit lane immediately to react. They would not have given Bottas the undercut. It would have basically been exactly the same as the Hamilton/Raikkonen situation.

So why did they try it with Hamilton? They could have at least tried it. The earlier Verstappen pitted, the better it was for Bottas too as it would have meant an even larger tyre off set. Bottas was obviously quicker. If Max's tyres were 5 laps older at the end of the race Bottas may have passed him actually on track (not that it mattered in the end)

A side note to this, the WCC winners choose if they want first or last pit stop - why don't Mercedes choose the garage furthest from the entry. That way your mechanics can come out after your driver has entered the pits so can't be countered in that way.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the pit boxes get progressively smaller the further you go down the pit lane? I’m sure I remember seeing a report stating that when McLaren first lost their position at the top table and they were saying it was going to be a bit difficult for them to shoehorn their massive operation in at some circuits


Not anymore. All garages are the same size these days.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I agree with everything in the video and its a good one, but one thing.

They could have easily got VB 3rd place by pitting him between laps 21-26. Kimi pitted on lap 21. Bottas was 1 second behind Max all of those laps and would have easily undercut him. Verstappen pitted on lap 27.

They left him out to hold up Kimi and by doing so knew they also gave VB a very good chance to get 3rd with a tyre offset. But its BS that they did everything to guarantee VB 3rd, if that was true he would have pitted laps 22-26. It was great team work, they should just tell it as it is instead of glossing over "we decided early to go long with Bottas" is BS.

You're missing the nuance of the situation. If they came out into the pit lane for Bottas during the window you're referring to, Red Bull would have sent Max's crew out into the pit lane immediately to react. They would not have given Bottas the undercut. It would have basically been exactly the same as the Hamilton/Raikkonen situation.

So why did they try it with Hamilton? They could have at least tried it. The earlier Verstappen pitted, the better it was for Bottas too as it would have meant an even larger tyre off set. Bottas was obviously quicker. If Max's tyres were 5 laps older at the end of the race Bottas may have passed him actually on track (not that it mattered in the end)

A side note to this, the WCC winners choose if they want first or last pit stop - why don't Mercedes choose the garage furthest from the entry. That way your mechanics can come out after your driver has entered the pits so can't be countered in that way.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the pit boxes get progressively smaller the further you go down the pit lane? I’m sure I remember seeing a report stating that when McLaren first lost their position at the top table and they were saying it was going to be a bit difficult for them to shoehorn their massive operation in at some circuits


Not anymore. All garages are the same size these days.

ah ok, thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:02 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We might have to hope that Red Bull can challenge Ferrari at Singapore?


Even if they do, only one of them is likely to finish.


And possibility that Ricciardo will start from the back?

He wont he will go back to the b-spec engine.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Clarky wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We might have to hope that Red Bull can challenge Ferrari at Singapore?


Even if they do, only one of them is likely to finish.


And possibility that Ricciardo will start from the back?

He wont he will go back to the b-spec engine.

Think I saw somewhere it was only the clutch, so everything else is usable


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Hi guys. I'd like an opinion on something if you would?

Which Hamilton race performances would you say were particularly strong during his Mercedes stretch?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Off the top of my head with not much thought:

Malaysia 2014
Monaco 2016
Spain 2017
Germany 2018
Italy 2018


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Silverstone 2013 wasn't that bad despite not finishing from where he started- an incredible qualy lap & good recovery after that rear tyre blow out.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:48 pm 
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Charges from the back:
Germany 2014, Hungary 2014, Spa 2016, Germany 2018

Dominant wins from pole:
USA 2016, Barcelona 2018, Silverstone 2015-17 (definitely left some out from 2015)

Wheel to wheel fights:
Bahrain 2014, USA 2014, USA 2015, USA 2017, Italy 2018


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:40 pm 
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I struggle with picking out standout wins from 2014-2016 because of the immense superiority of the Mercedes. His only competition was Rosberg, and any comebacks through the field are pretty straightforward when your car is several seconds quicker than most of the others once everything's turned up. Most wins in that period were a question of controlling the pace at the front.

Germany and Italy this year were among the most impressive wins of his career. Austin was his standout race from 2017 as I think the Ferrari was the car to have that day. His win in Hungary in 2013 was worthy of note as the car was not the fastest at that time. I think Monaco 2016 gets overlooked because Ricciardo should have won it, but I think Hamilton being the only one to keep the wet tyres in shape on a drying track made his the best performance of the day. Then I'd pick out a couple of races where he chased down and passed Rosberg in a straight fight: at Monza in 2014 and in the tricky conditions in Japan the same year.

EDIT: I'll also add Brazil in 2016. Hamilton and Verstappen were supreme in the wet that day.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:12 pm 
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j man wrote:
I struggle with picking out standout wins from 2014-2016 because of the immense superiority of the Mercedes. His only competition was Rosberg, and any comebacks through the field are pretty straightforward when your car is several seconds quicker than most of the others once everything's turned up. Most wins in that period were a question of controlling the pace at the front.


EDIT: I'll also add Brazil in 2016. Hamilton and Verstappen were supreme in the wet that day.


Suzuka 2014 was epic for that brilliant pass he executed on Rosberg and then disappearing off in the distance in crazy wet conditions.
Bahrain 2014 was a forever epic race.
How can you leave those out? :lol:
USA 2017 is a race I attended live; he dominated the entire weekend and it was obvious after FP3 no one was going to touch him there. I wouldn't' say that the Ferrari was the car to have that weekend though.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Hungary 2013
Bahrain 2014
Italy 2018


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:18 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
j man wrote:
I struggle with picking out standout wins from 2014-2016 because of the immense superiority of the Mercedes. His only competition was Rosberg, and any comebacks through the field are pretty straightforward when your car is several seconds quicker than most of the others once everything's turned up. Most wins in that period were a question of controlling the pace at the front.


EDIT: I'll also add Brazil in 2016. Hamilton and Verstappen were supreme in the wet that day.


Suzuka 2014 was epic for that brilliant pass he executed on Rosberg and then disappearing off in the distance in crazy wet conditions.
Bahrain 2014 was a forever epic race.
How can you leave those out? :lol:
USA 2017 is a race I attended live; he dominated the entire weekend and it was obvious after FP3 no one was going to touch him there. I wouldn't' say that the Ferrari was the car to have that weekend though.

I did mention Suzuka 2014... you deleted it from the quote ;)

Bahrain 2014 was fantastic to watch but was it a fantastic performance? Hamilton and Rosberg were quite evenly matched that day and I thought some of Hamilton's driving was just a touch too aggressive for battling a team mate.

USA 2017 is one of those that is hard to judge how good the car was: in Hamilton's hands it looked the fastest but in Bottas' hands it looked the third fastest. In such situations I'm inclined to believe that the truth lies somewhere in between.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Bahrain 2014 and Spa "because I lifted" 2017 for me.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:17 pm 
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And of course Italy 2018


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:56 pm 
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j man wrote:
kleefton wrote:
j man wrote:
I struggle with picking out standout wins from 2014-2016 because of the immense superiority of the Mercedes. His only competition was Rosberg, and any comebacks through the field are pretty straightforward when your car is several seconds quicker than most of the others once everything's turned up. Most wins in that period were a question of controlling the pace at the front.


EDIT: I'll also add Brazil in 2016. Hamilton and Verstappen were supreme in the wet that day.


Suzuka 2014 was epic for that brilliant pass he executed on Rosberg and then disappearing off in the distance in crazy wet conditions.
Bahrain 2014 was a forever epic race.
How can you leave those out? :lol:
USA 2017 is a race I attended live; he dominated the entire weekend and it was obvious after FP3 no one was going to touch him there. I wouldn't' say that the Ferrari was the car to have that weekend though.

I did mention Suzuka 2014... you deleted it from the quote ;)

Bahrain 2014 was fantastic to watch but was it a fantastic performance? Hamilton and Rosberg were quite evenly matched that day and I thought some of Hamilton's driving was just a touch too aggressive for battling a team mate.

USA 2017 is one of those that is hard to judge how good the car was: in Hamilton's hands it looked the fastest but in Bottas' hands it looked the third fastest. In such situations I'm inclined to believe that the truth lies somewhere in between.

Not even at all actually. Hamilton had a ten second lead erased by the safety car and Rosberg came out behind him on fresh softs while Hamilton was on mediums. For Lewis to win that fight with such a handicap was impressive (and it was just a ferocious battle - which you don't see too much of in F1).


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