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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:08 am 
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...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:56 am 
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Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:16 am 
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Not a fan of team orders, especially with the run Lewis is having against Vettel, it was unnecessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:24 am 
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I think most of the mature and objective fans accept that team orders are part of the sport. IMO Lewis and Vettel should 100% be given priority by their teams as they are in a title fight. The others are not.

I fully understand the last race from a team point of view (not necessarily mine, but that's sentiment). Same way I was cool when Ferrari asked Kimi to move over in Germany, and he did


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:27 am 
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Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


And never been seen before. It's like F1 is only 1 season old.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:38 am 
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justmoi wrote:
Some very shabby logic here. Lewis passed Vettel into a corner, after a very minor mistake (which Vettel admitted) gave him an opening to gain using drs. Please see again how Lewis gained on Bottas on the opening lap after a poor start and very nearly passed by Vettel. He caught up and pulled alongside Bottas and would have passed if they didn't run out of straight. The tow was massive. After catching up Vettel, they avoided a clash, he stuck at it and passed under braking, this time Vettel leaving room. I would say good driving.

Russia is notoriously hard to overtake. And this was top car vs top car. It's not like it was a front runner against a midfield team. Lewis was clearly faster than Bottas. He didn't pass. And in fact he did pull to within 5 tenths and 7 tenths of Bottas applying pressure. But there was no mistake to let him in. Nothing in the race showed Mercedes were 'significantly' faster than Ferrari in the race. In the opening stint when they would have obviously wanted to pull clear of Vettel to avoid the undercut considering there were two cars, they didn't manage it. When Lewis had to push setting purple times (before he caught the Williams) throughout Vettel was there, as real evidence on live timing showed. 1.9 seconds, to 2.014 then 2.017 (that's nothing) then back to 1.9.... While Lewis was going purple. See how Vettel closed to Bottas on his flying lap to undercut Lewis, and Bottas was still trying to win the race then. Vettel himself has said he was faster than Bottas, though not enough to get past. For not saying he was faster than Lewis, that's probably down to Lewis just being fast. I suspect Mercedes were faster, but not by much.

But ye, great explanation. The mercedes was simply much faster. That's cleared the mystery for us. The self driving much faster Mercedes just pulled up and passed the Ferrari, no driver input. Just like Monza, in fact the mercedes was 4 secs a lap faster there. Ye

Guys can't even give credit. So called sports fans. It's a shame. Takes the fun out of it sometimes. Some of us also enjoy the racing. Ugh

I've been away so no real chance to get involved in all of this but you summed it up perfectly for me. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:58 am 
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Cut out the sarcasm about team orders please guys, the driver threads are meant to be kept to a decent standard even if they do often become love-ins.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:07 am 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and lt.drebin claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.


Last edited by FormulaFun on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:45 am 
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'The team orders kerfuffle was created by a bunch of ill-educated folk on the internet, while in the paddock it was accepted as being completely normal and sensible.' Saward.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:07 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
'The team orders kerfuffle was created by a bunch of ill-educated folk on the internet, while in the paddock it was accepted as being completely normal and sensible.' Saward.


OK, so, different opinion = ill educated does it. Hamilton is conflicted so is he ill educated? Highly elitist attitude in my opinion!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:40 am 
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I don't think there is any necessary hypocrisy in recognizing that team orders are a fact of life in Formula One while not liking them at all.

Orders are something that teams will use even if officially banned. Up and down the grid teams will maximize their points in both WDC and WCC standings with team orders when they perceive it is to their advantage. This does not mean we have to like it. Seeing a driver (like Valtteri) be told to move over for his team mate means that we did not see an honest contest for the best driver that weekend.

A more subtle form of team orders that may be just as bad is the splitting of strategy between team mates where one driver is put on a strategy that disadvantages themselves just to make their opponents have to respond to cover them. Ferrari have put Kimi on such disadvantaged strategies a number of times this year to make Lewis and Valtteri pit for tires in order to cover his move.

In short this is part of racing multi car teams. The teams will favor their perceived strongest driver to the detriment of their team mate. At times this will be perceived as unfair to the "2nd driver" and will be derided by the majority of racing fans.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:52 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:59 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
'The team orders kerfuffle was created by a bunch of ill-educated folk on the internet, while in the paddock it was accepted as being completely normal and sensible.' Saward.


OK, so, different opinion = ill educated does it. Hamilton is conflicted so is he ill educated? Highly elitist attitude in my opinion!


I would guess that Saward's opinion is probably shared by almost all those within the paddock; but they are hardly going to express it publicly. Can't see many within the paddock worrying too much about using team orders in the future as a result of this latest 'kerfuffle' either.

As for Saward I'd always pinned him as 'arrogant'; but I like 'elitist'.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:14 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.


There is an OBVIOUS difference between issuing team orders/favouring a driver in a scenario whereby only one driver is in the title challenge in comparison to favouring a driver when both drivers are in the challenge/start of the season.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:36 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.


There is an OBVIOUS difference between issuing team orders/favouring a driver in a scenario whereby only one driver is in the title challenge in comparison to favouring a driver when both drivers are in the challenge/start of the season.

I'm just saying why I think some others may be responding in the way they are


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:24 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
'The team orders kerfuffle was created by a bunch of ill-educated folk on the internet, while in the paddock it was accepted as being completely normal and sensible.' Saward.

What I see on here is a few people not that comfortable with the thought that Hamilton is on the threshold of being a 5 time WDC hence the shade being thrown onto him.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.

Ferrari didn't have a #1 driver in 2007 or 2008 but that didn't stop the driver being out of WDC contention helping the other driver, this being different to being the #1 driver before the season has even started, flawed argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.


There is an OBVIOUS difference between issuing team orders/favouring a driver in a scenario whereby only one driver is in the title challenge in comparison to favouring a driver when both drivers are in the challenge/start of the season.

I'm just saying why I think some others may be responding in the way they are

Why do this with a flawed argument, making a case on behalf of others, why do this?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
...and suddenly team orders is the best thing since sliced bread.


:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.

What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.


There is an OBVIOUS difference between issuing team orders/favouring a driver in a scenario whereby only one driver is in the title challenge in comparison to favouring a driver when both drivers are in the challenge/start of the season.

I'm just saying why I think some others may be responding in the way they are

Why do this with a flawed argument, making a case on behalf of others, why do this?

I'm giving a reason why some may be posting, in much the same way the poster before me did. Why am I the only one at fault here?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:

:nod:
Funny that.


Haven't actually seen any Hamilton fan indicate they are happy that team orders were utilised or that they were chuffed he had won in that manner. Pretty much all anyone is saying is it's understandable as to why there were... doesn't mean you think it's great does it. I understand why sugar tax got brought in doesn't mean I'm happy that I have to pay more for a bottle of Fanta does it. I think you will find that the hypocracy is coming from elsewhere. You two are in here going on about how fantastic we are all saying team orders are, can't personally see anyone saying that (if you could direct me to 2-3 comments about that, that would be great) and you got ynot proclaiming he's done with the sport because team orders are a mockery and bourbon claiming it's a disgrace and they humiliated bottas like has never been done to another driver, yet didn't respond when I questioned if it was more humiliating than ordering a driver to crash to create a safety car or black mailing a driver to get them to move (along with other instances) which I don't see them taking much issue with. If you're after some hypocracy you need to find a mirror.

That's because none of them have. No one is happy about team orders and no one is saying that this is great. There are just some anti-Hamilton fans and Ferrari fans trying to take this and make it into a big deal.

In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.

What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

I don't think they are. Please don't try to tell me that there haven't been complaints and accusations against Ferrari team orders with Kimi and Seb in the past. I don't see a massive difference here, except with the drivers involved. And BTW I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill over it either way


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:37 pm 
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Isn't this somewhat wishful thinking from Bottas?

"Valtteri Bottas expects more Mercedes team orders"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45743495

Russia is his best track and he snatched a pole from Hamilton whilst probably still being slightly slower and therefore race win (if allowed), but before that Hamilton has out qualified him the last 5 races (when both competed in Q3) and the race pace is always with Hamilton.

Having said that, Rosberg beat Hamilton 3-1 in Japanese GP qualifying, his best track vs Hamilton in qualifying. Button probably had his best ever weekend relative to Hamilton there in 2011 too and Hamilton went 5 seasons without out qualifying his team mate there 2011-2016.

I can't see Bottas out qualifying Hamilton, even if it is a weak track for him. Hamilton has the magic 50 points, I wouldn't want to see any more team orders between them for a race win, lower positions would be ok if Vettel is leading.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

It's not a straw man at all. I started the whole thing by calling into question whether Hamilton supporters would now begin to justify team orders after they've been used to help their driver. They have begun to do exactly that, so I was clearly right - no straw man involved.

To be perfectly clear, what is being argued in this thread is not whether the team orders were justified, it's the hypocrisy of Hamilton fans for spending the last decade attacking everyone else for using team orders and now finding it perfectly reasonable when it's their driver who gets it.

As for the argument about this somehow being better because it's late in the season, that's nonsensical. Team orders are more justifiable when the championship battle is close, not when it's late in the season. That has no bearing on it. If Hamilton needed those points - if Vettel was still a real threat - that would make the orders more justifiable. If you believe it's always acceptable to apply team orders to a driver who isn't in contention for the WDC, then frankly applying them to Kimi from the start of the year is completely reasonable based on his form at Ferrari.

I am a team supporter first, and a driver supporter second. I have no problem with team orders when they are necessary and serve the goals of the team. But that's not a position I heard from any Hamilton fan before last Sunday.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
How do Hamilton fans feel about that result? I'm curious, because I have the feeling that throughout Lewis' career, his fans have been quite vocal about how he doesn't need #1 status and his rivals do. Now that Lewis is clearly being given all the benefits of a Schumacher-like system of driver preference, how many of his fans still feel the same way? Are his stats going forward now tainted like I've seen Vettel's or Schumacher's called?


As a Hamilton fan, I am totally disgusted. If he indeed wins the WDC by that margin, in my mind he will not be a champion.

But I am happy that he didn't ask for it, and wasn't happy about it. So this is on the team, not him. So I am disgusted by the action, but happy that Hamilton is a racer and doesn't believe in charity points that he didn't win.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

It's not a straw man at all. I started the whole thing by calling into question whether Hamilton supporters would now begin to justify team orders after they've been used to help their driver. They have begun to do exactly that, so I was clearly right - no straw man involved.

To be perfectly clear, what is being argued in this thread is not whether the team orders were justified, it's the hypocrisy of Hamilton fans for spending the last decade attacking everyone else for using team orders and now finding it perfectly reasonable when it's their driver who gets it.

As for the argument about this somehow being better because it's late in the season, that's nonsensical. Team orders are more justifiable when the championship battle is close, not when it's late in the season. That has no bearing on it. If Hamilton needed those points - if Vettel was still a real threat - that would make the orders more justifiable. If you believe it's always acceptable to apply team orders to a driver who isn't in contention for the WDC, then frankly applying them to Kimi from the start of the year is completely reasonable based on his form at Ferrari.

I am a team supporter first, and a driver supporter second. I have no problem with team orders when they are necessary and serve the goals of the team. But that's not a position I heard from any Hamilton fan before last Sunday.



So would that be some Hamilton fans; or as you seem to intimate, all Hamilton fans?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:24 pm 
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The straw man is painting all Hamilton fans with your brush. Hamilton has benefited from team orders numerous times, especially over the last 2 seasons.

Germany 2008. Turkey 2010. Malaysia 2013. Monaco 2016. Bahrain 2017. Spain 2017. Hungary 2017. Germany 2018. Hungary 2018. Russia 2018. Just to name a few off the top of my head. That is 6 times in the last 2 seasons alone.

He also had team orders against him to help his team mate. For Rosberg in 2013 and for Bottas in a race last year. Obviously less of those since Hamilton is usually ahead / the title challenger. I know a win is a lot more high profile, but Hamilton has been benefiting from team orders for a long time. They used to make sure Heikki didn't out qualify him in 2008 because Heikki's race pace was terrible but he had good 1 lap pace at quite a few tracks so the last thing they wanted was Heikki holding Lewis up so fueled him so it didn't happen.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

It's not a straw man at all. I started the whole thing by calling into question whether Hamilton supporters would now begin to justify team orders after they've been used to help their driver. They have begun to do exactly that, so I was clearly right - no straw man involved.

To be perfectly clear, what is being argued in this thread is not whether the team orders were justified, it's the hypocrisy of Hamilton fans for spending the last decade attacking everyone else for using team orders and now finding it perfectly reasonable when it's their driver who gets it.

As for the argument about this somehow being better because it's late in the season, that's nonsensical. Team orders are more justifiable when the championship battle is close, not when it's late in the season. That has no bearing on it. If Hamilton needed those points - if Vettel was still a real threat - that would make the orders more justifiable. If you believe it's always acceptable to apply team orders to a driver who isn't in contention for the WDC, then frankly applying them to Kimi from the start of the year is completely reasonable based on his form at Ferrari.

I am a team supporter first, and a driver supporter second. I have no problem with team orders when they are necessary and serve the goals of the team. But that's not a position I heard from any Hamilton fan before last Sunday.


Is it "Hamilton fans" or a small minority of Hamilton fans that may not have even commented on this thread? I think what has been argued in the past is that his rivals go into the season with a number 2 whilst Hamilton doesn't. I personally don't really agree with that argument per say but nothings changed in regards to that.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:32 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

It's not a straw man at all. I started the whole thing by calling into question whether Hamilton supporters would now begin to justify team orders after they've been used to help their driver. They have begun to do exactly that, so I was clearly right - no straw man involved.

To be perfectly clear, what is being argued in this thread is not whether the team orders were justified, it's the hypocrisy of Hamilton fans for spending the last decade attacking everyone else for using team orders and now finding it perfectly reasonable when it's their driver who gets it.

As for the argument about this somehow being better because it's late in the season, that's nonsensical. Team orders are more justifiable when the championship battle is close, not when it's late in the season. That has no bearing on it. If Hamilton needed those points - if Vettel was still a real threat - that would make the orders more justifiable. If you believe it's always acceptable to apply team orders to a driver who isn't in contention for the WDC, then frankly applying them to Kimi from the start of the year is completely reasonable based on his form at Ferrari.

I am a team supporter first, and a driver supporter second. I have no problem with team orders when they are necessary and serve the goals of the team. But that's not a position I heard from any Hamilton fan before last Sunday.


EXACTLY THIS... Exediron nailed it.

To answer a couple of the subsequent posts, no... It is not ALL Hamilton fans,but it is not an insignificant percentage either. Some of the most vocal critics of Ferrari's previous use of team orders are among those justifying Merc's use of them now. It is hypocrisy pure and simple and that is fact. As I have often been on record, team orders are not a big concern to me as I feel the teams have right to dictate the strategy that best fits their needs. However, I have seen Ferrari basically "burned at the stake" for using team orders for about 15 years, now some of those most vocal of critics are desperately justifying Mercedes use with a variety of excuses. To be honest, it is hilarious...and quite telling.
;)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:01 am 
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Blake wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

It's not a straw man at all. I started the whole thing by calling into question whether Hamilton supporters would now begin to justify team orders after they've been used to help their driver. They have begun to do exactly that, so I was clearly right - no straw man involved.

To be perfectly clear, what is being argued in this thread is not whether the team orders were justified, it's the hypocrisy of Hamilton fans for spending the last decade attacking everyone else for using team orders and now finding it perfectly reasonable when it's their driver who gets it.

As for the argument about this somehow being better because it's late in the season, that's nonsensical. Team orders are more justifiable when the championship battle is close, not when it's late in the season. That has no bearing on it. If Hamilton needed those points - if Vettel was still a real threat - that would make the orders more justifiable. If you believe it's always acceptable to apply team orders to a driver who isn't in contention for the WDC, then frankly applying them to Kimi from the start of the year is completely reasonable based on his form at Ferrari.

I am a team supporter first, and a driver supporter second. I have no problem with team orders when they are necessary and serve the goals of the team. But that's not a position I heard from any Hamilton fan before last Sunday.


EXACTLY THIS... Exediron nailed it.

To answer a couple of the subsequent posts, no... It is not ALL Hamilton fans,but it is not an insignificant percentage either. Some of the most vocal critics of Ferrari's previous use of team orders are among those justifying Merc's use of them now. It is hypocrisy pure and simple and that is fact. As I have often been on record, team orders are not a big concern to me as I feel the teams have right to dictate the strategy that best fits their needs. However, I have seen Ferrari basically "burned at the stake" for using team orders for about 15 years, now some of those most vocal of critics are desperately justifying Mercedes use with a variety of excuses. To be honest, it is hilarious...and quite telling.
;)


He didn't nail anything.

He didn't ask "how do Hamilton fans feel about team orders" he asked "how do Hamilton fans feel about that result". 2 distinctly different questions. He has taken answers about 1 specific scenario and used it to dictate to us our own opinion on a much broader scale in order to call "any" Hamilton fan a hypocrite. What is the point of that exercise? The general consensus in here is that they have mixed feelings about the result because whilst we want Hamilton to win the championship we don't like to see him win as a direct result of team orders, because we don't like team orders - there is no change of perusasion towards team orders, so where is this hypocracy? The main hypocracy I have seen is elsewhere go and read through the Russian GP race thread and you will find a lot of people suddenly being outraged by the idea of team orders, people who have never cared before. Let me tell you they aren't Hamilton fans - some of the most vocal critics of mercedes current use of team orders are among those justifying Ferrari's use of them in the past. It is hypocrisy pure and simple and that is fact.

Still i am yet to see a quote from this as you put it not insignificant portion of Hamilton fans which used to hate but now love the idea of team orders. People have claimed their reasoning is understandable - vettel even referred to it as a no brainer - with most saying even as obvious as it was it is still disappointing bottas was not returned the position at the end.

As for Exediron basically saying that at 40 points vettel is no longer a title challenger, that statement is about as legitimate as his following one that no Hamilton fan has ever acknowledged the purpose of team orders. Even at 50 points anything can happen, an engine goes in suzuka and vettel wins it's 25 points difference, completely possible.

And that there is a difference between favouring the only title contending driver as the season comes to a close compared with starting the season with a clear team favourite is very distinct and clear to everyone, if this cannot even be acknowledged then we might as well just end any discussion here be ause you're comparing apples and oranges


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:05 am 
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It does not apply to all Hamilton fans obviously. But it is always going to happen. Casual fans can't be objective, there are always double standards. Ferrari gave an order when team orders were allowed and McLaren gave one when they were not. Guess which one is more famous, Rubens pulling over in Austria or Heiki in Germany??? We all try to be objective in here and up to a point it is evident that there are a lot of fans of the sport above all. But personal bias does reflect on some posts.


ReservoirDog wrote:
As a Hamilton fan, I am totally disgusted. If he indeed wins the WDC by that margin, in my mind he will not be a champion.

But I am happy that he didn't ask for it, and wasn't happy about it. So this is on the team, not him. So I am disgusted by the action, but happy that Hamilton is a racer and doesn't believe in charity points that he didn't win.


This is a great post ReservoirDog. But there are so many people blaming the drivers for orders, as if Schumacher was directly calling Rubens from his cockpit. As if Hamilton has a direct line to Heiki or Valteri. We have heard drivers complaining to ask the other driver to let them through. But when a team makes the call then how can people blame the driver?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:16 am 
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So Hamilton benefited from team orders so what? All this hu ha over nothing. What has gone under the radar is a subtle change in approach from Hamilton and Mercedes. They are suddenly confronted by this huge almost surreal opportunity to go for the biggest records in F1 and they have decided to go all in. They have decided they will do whatever it takes to try and reach them and if that includes team orders so be it. Hamilton realised he has got an opportunity here to go down in history, and frankly realised there is no record books for team orders, only for extraordinary numbers. So I feel sorry for Bottas if Mercedes continues to be competitive a precedent has been set. This will not be the last time he gives way.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:45 am 
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Knock it on the head. Driver official threads are for discussing the driver, not your interpretation of the opinions of a subset of his fanbase.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:39 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
In all fairness that's because a number of Hamilton fans often use the claimed lack of number one or no team orders at Merc as some kind of badge of status, particularly when comparing Hamilton to e.g. Alonso or Vettel. I should imagine that a number of people who have been on the receiving end of that in the past are probably taking the opportunity to hammer the point home now.


There is an OBVIOUS difference between issuing team orders/favouring a driver in a scenario whereby only one driver is in the title challenge in comparison to favouring a driver when both drivers are in the challenge/start of the season.


Mercedes used team orders when Rosberg was ahead of Hamilton at Monaco. They were both in a title fight with many races to come, but Rosberg followed team orders and let Hamilton past, and Hamilton won the race after Red Bull screwed up a pit stop.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What they're doing is straw-manning Hamilton supporters by ascribing views to them that they never actually expressed. They are also attempting to draw false equivalences between this one case of team orders and entire careers of other drivers where they never had to compete against their teammate.

It's not a straw man at all. I started the whole thing by calling into question whether Hamilton supporters would now begin to justify team orders after they've been used to help their driver. They have begun to do exactly that, so I was clearly right - no straw man involved.

To be perfectly clear, what is being argued in this thread is not whether the team orders were justified, it's the hypocrisy of Hamilton fans for spending the last decade attacking everyone else for using team orders and now finding it perfectly reasonable when it's their driver who gets it.

As for the argument about this somehow being better because it's late in the season, that's nonsensical. Team orders are more justifiable when the championship battle is close, not when it's late in the season. That has no bearing on it. If Hamilton needed those points - if Vettel was still a real threat - that would make the orders more justifiable. If you believe it's always acceptable to apply team orders to a driver who isn't in contention for the WDC, then frankly applying them to Kimi from the start of the year is completely reasonable based on his form at Ferrari.

I am a team supporter first, and a driver supporter second. I have no problem with team orders when they are necessary and serve the goals of the team. But that's not a position I heard from any Hamilton fan before last Sunday.

The bolded part carries massive assumptions. You assume that all Hamilton fans have in the past expressed a complete disapproval of team orders. This is blatantly false. From my participation in this forum (and the internet in general) most fans have said that team orders late in a season when only one driver is mathematically in the championship race are understandable but imposing a pre-determined 1-2 driver status from day 1 of the season is shameful. So you have absolutely straw-manned a large group of people. I've even seen some Hamilton fans complain in the past that he should be getting team orders like Alonso was so there are some of them who very much believe in team orders and have wanted to see this. Whenever you paint such a large group of people with the same brush, you can only ever be in the wrong. What's obvious is that you've seized on this incident of team orders to try to paint an unbalanced picture. It's a bit unexpected from you to be honest.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Exactly, I remember 2010, in particular people wanted to see mclaren implementing team orders in favour of Hamilton since button was basically out of the fight


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:20 pm 
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You have been asked by two mods now to drop certain topics. We'll re-open this thread in due course but for now I think time out is needed.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:17 am 
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Keep it clean please.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:24 am 
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Right, about those team orders in Russia, I for one am..... :twisted:

Great outcome for Hamilton today in qualy, just needs to stay out of trouble on lap 1 then hope for no mechanical issues.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:29 am 
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How Mercedes reacts to the 2019 rule change will determine if Hamilton has a good shot at breaking or equalling all of Schumachers records.

80 poles today.
70 vs 91 wins with Schumacher.

If he can get 3 more wins this season, he needs one more dominant year (10+ wins) then he is in striking distance of the win total. If Mercedes produce another 2014-2016 car, I sense he will lose less wins to Bottas than he did Nico. The Mercedes of the last few races is starting to look more like those dominant cars.


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