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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:41 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
A worthy nomination for the BBC’s sports personality of the year for Hamilton. He probably won’t win and I don’t think he’d get my vote if I bothered voting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/50471639

Other nominations are: Ben Stokes, Alun-Wyn Jones, Raheem Sterling, Dina Asher-Smith, Katarina Johnson-Thompson.

I imagine that Ben Stokes will win it?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
A worthy nomination for the BBC’s sports personality of the year for Hamilton. He probably won’t win and I don’t think he’d get my vote if I bothered voting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/50471639

Other nominations are: Ben Stokes, Alun-Wyn Jones, Raheem Sterling, Dina Asher-Smith, Katarina Johnson-Thompson.

I imagine that Ben Stokes will win it?


I think so and he is the bookies favourite.

I put a bet on Sterling to win when he was 33/1 early in the year. A couple of months later he was the 5/1 favourite. He won’t win now but at one point I thought I’d made myself some money : :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:25 pm 
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Its sports personality though right, kind of also seperate from achievement alone sterling recently attacked his England team mate and Ben stokes got done for drunken assault as far as I know of.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:34 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Its sports personality though right, kind of also seperate from achievement alone sterling recently attacked his England team mate and Ben stokes got done for drunken assault as far as I know of.


No, not at all cleared on a technicality. Its that return from the depths that makes him a favourite.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:48 am 
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Can't imagine any major sport person caring at all about the award


Hamilton on Graham Norton was cringe worthy. Does anyone know why he does so many chat shows? Always looks awkward so assuming he doesn't enjoy them, then has to fend off stupid questions such as why doesn't the car have air conditioning


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:00 am 
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Zazu wrote:
Can't imagine any major sport person caring at all about the award


Hamilton on Graham Norton was cringe worthy. Does anyone know why he does so many chat shows? Always looks awkward so assuming he doesn't enjoy them, then has to fend off stupid questions such as why doesn't the car have air conditioning


I thought he was fine on Graham Norton. Ricky Gervais actually asked a lot of questions that would have been interesting to the none F1 expert.

I do think sports people do care about the award. Why else would someone like Hamilton turn up?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:14 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Its sports personality though right, kind of also seperate from achievement alone sterling recently attacked his England team mate and Ben stokes got done for drunken assault as far as I know of.


The name is misleading, it’s been based on achievement for 15 or so years I’ve been watching.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:04 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zazu wrote:
Can't imagine any major sport person caring at all about the award


Hamilton on Graham Norton was cringe worthy. Does anyone know why he does so many chat shows? Always looks awkward so assuming he doesn't enjoy them, then has to fend off stupid questions such as why doesn't the car have air conditioning


I thought he was fine on Graham Norton. Ricky Gervais actually asked a lot of questions that would have been interesting to the none F1 expert.

I do think sports people do care about the award. Why else would someone like Hamilton turn up?


I agree, thought it was perfectly fine. The bit about A/C was clearly a joke, as Gervais said he's got the window open


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:44 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Its sports personality though right, kind of also seperate from achievement alone sterling recently attacked his England team mate and Ben stokes got done for drunken assault as far as I know of.

That still kind of makes you a personality though as opposed to someone who might be considered as being a bit bland, I guess it's how much people weigh up the personality side, that being negative or otherwise, as opposed to actual achievement?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:20 pm 
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It's nothing to do with personality. It's just an example of how our received English has changed since the 60s. Sports Personality = Sports Person.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Unusual list for SPOTY this year, 4 of the 6 shortlisters either black or black mixed raced. A Welsh man and Ben Stokes, born and raised in New Zealander until aged 13.

All in a year when Brexit looks to happen :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Unusual list for SPOTY this year, 4 of the 6 shortlisters either black or black mixed raced. A Welsh man and Ben Stokes, born and raised in New Zealander until aged 13.

All in a year when Brexit looks to happen :lol:


Unfortunate post to be honest, they are all British. I'd bin that agenda if I were you!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Unusual list for SPOTY this year, 4 of the 6 shortlisters either black or black mixed raced. A Welsh man and Ben Stokes, born and raised in New Zealander until aged 13.

All in a year when Brexit looks to happen :lol:


Unfortunate post to be honest, they are all British. I'd bin that agenda if I were you!


Not really. He's just saying its an eclectic mix.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:45 pm 
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From motorsport.com. The below passage by Hamilton really puts into context how hard drivers are working around the lap to get maximum efficiency out of their packages.

ON COPING WITH CONSTANTLY CHANGING SETTINGS...
"Yeah, that's probably the hardest thing. It is strange because I look at a lot of other drivers, and all of us F1 drivers look at the onboard laps of the other drivers in the previous years.

"A lot of the drivers don't spend time with manoeuvres in terms of the adjustments. I think Ferrari has a flick on the back of their steering wheel, but I move a lot.

"In each corner there’s a limitation to what you can do. If you're going to be [at] very high speed, you have a lot of downforce on some of the corners, so you have more slip when the brake balance is further forward at the front end. Or at some corners you have more on the rear end, like Brazil for example. Let me take you through a lap of Interlagos.

"So Turn 1 I have the brake balance I think like 56%, and we have brake migration and engine braking. So I have those three all set. I go through Turns 1, 2, 3 and coming out of Turn 3 I adjust my engine braking one step up, move my brake migration one step forward. And then I'm going to move my brake balance forwards and really, really quick.

"Then you go through Turns 4, 5, 6, and 7, and just before you get to Turn 8 I move the brake balance rearwards because you put a lot of temperature in the front tyres as you come through, so you don't want front-locking.

"Then go through Turn 8 and 9 and, as you go from Turn 9 to 10, you have to move the brake balance rearwards again, and also the migration rearwards because this is a really tight corner.

"Then coming out of Turn 10, through Turn 11 and down to Turn 12, I move the brake balance forwards. As we come into the last corner, again it's all about the exit.

"I'm constantly trying to explore. You have to be able to focus on hitting the apexes and the braking points perfectly, and adjusting these things has taken a lot of time to practice. You have to have extra bandwidth, you know, in your focus region, to be able to do those and get them perfect."


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:41 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Unusual list for SPOTY this year, 4 of the 6 shortlisters either black or black mixed raced. A Welsh man and Ben Stokes, born and raised in New Zealander until aged 13.

All in a year when Brexit looks to happen :lol:


Unfortunate post to be honest, they are all British. I'd bin that agenda if I were you!


Statistically its a very unprobable list.

- The UK is 89% white...
- England represents 90% of the UK population
- 1% of the UK is mixed raced, but 2 of the 6 are.
- Less than 5% of the UK are black or mixed raced, yet 4/6 of the list are.
- Wales only represents 4% of the UK population but 1/6

So, all of that said, it makes a very unprobable list to end up with 4 black or mixed raced black, 1 w
Welshman and one dual New Zealander/English and yes 100% they are all British of course.


Last edited by Johnson on Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Improbable statistically, but not historically. After all the whole point of the British Empire was to get as much hot and spicy foods and Olympic quality athletes as we could; before we gave all their countries back. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Unusual list for SPOTY this year, 4 of the 6 shortlisters either black or black mixed raced. A Welsh man and Ben Stokes, born and raised in New Zealander until aged 13.

All in a year when Brexit looks to happen :lol:


Unfortunate post to be honest, they are all British. I'd bin that agenda if I were you!


Statistically its a very unprobable list.

- The UK is 89% white...
- England represents 90% of the UK population
- 1% of the UK is mixed raced, but 2 of the 6 are.
- Less than 5% of the UK are black or mixed raced, yet 4/6 of the list are.
- Wales only represents 4% of the UK population but 1/6

So, all of that said, it makes a very unprobable list to end up with 4 black or mixed raced black, 1 w
Welshman and one dual New Zealander/English and yes 100% they are all British of course.


So what has Brexit got to do with it?

Check out the ethnicity of top sportsman across the sports then say it is improbable.

Why are there few black swimmers and yet they dominate sprinting? Why are the top endurance runners from North Africa? A huge amount is about genetics.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:45 pm 
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Enough of the Brexit talk please guys.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:32 am 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Enough of the Brexit talk please guys.

Not a Brexit talk Mod, but I wanted to add that the award has considered before non-British athletes, it is not unheard of. Frankie Dettori is Italian and I think another New Zealander has been in it in the past.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:30 am 
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There is the Overseas Sports Personality of the Year that has been won by some extraordinary sportsmen including Niki Lauda and Sebastian Vettel. SPOTY has been won by Mansell x2, Damon Hill x2, Jackie Stewart and of course Lewis Hamilton!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Enough of the Brexit talk please guys.

Not a Brexit talk Mod, but I wanted to add that the award has considered before non-British athletes, it is not unheard of. Frankie Dettori is Italian and I think another New Zealander has been in it in the past.


The award is for British citizens, Dettori is the same as Ben Stokes. Born abroad to none British parents but moved here in his teens.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Unusual list for SPOTY this year, 4 of the 6 shortlisters either black or black mixed raced. A Welsh man and Ben Stokes, born and raised in New Zealander until aged 13.

All in a year when Brexit looks to happen :lol:


Unfortunate post to be honest, they are all British. I'd bin that agenda if I were you!


Statistically its a very unprobable list.

- The UK is 89% white...
- England represents 90% of the UK population
- 1% of the UK is mixed raced, but 2 of the 6 are.
- Less than 5% of the UK are black or mixed raced, yet 4/6 of the list are.
- Wales only represents 4% of the UK population but 1/6

So, all of that said, it makes a very unprobable list to end up with 4 black or mixed raced black, 1 w
Welshman and one dual New Zealander/English and yes 100% they are all British of course.


So what has Brexit got to do with it?

Check out the ethnicity of top sportsman across the sports then say it is improbable.

Why are there few black swimmers and yet they dominate sprinting? Why are the top endurance runners from North Africa? A huge amount is about genetics.


Candidates that are Black, mixed raced or Asian. The only Asian is actually 2011 and Amir Khan. All of the others are Black or black mixed raced.

4/6 - 2019
2/6 - 2018
3/12 - 2017
3/16 - 2016
3/12 - 2015
1/11 - 2014
2/10 - 2013
3/12 - 2012
2/10 - 2011
2/10 - 2010
3/10 - 2009

Before 2008 the SPOTY ran a different format, in which the public did not vote. So yes I stand by my comments, statistically it is a very odd year. 66% of the shortlist are black or black mixed raced and add to that one other candidate being a dual New Zealander too makes this an especially odd year. The next highest is the year before at 33% but generally the figure is 20-25%. Do you disagree with me?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?


I don't think anyone is suggesting anything different.

Johnson just brought it up as an interesting point. There isn't much controversy in the choices. They're the obvious picks.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?


I don't think anyone is suggesting anything different.

Johnson just brought it up as an interesting point. There isn't much controversy in the choices. They're the obvious picks.


Well off topic but I don't quite get the Alun Wyn Jones pick but maybe that's because I'm not a huge rugby fan. Agree that the other picks were obvious though.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:56 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?


I don't think anyone is suggesting anything different.

Johnson just brought it up as an interesting point. There isn't much controversy in the choices. They're the obvious picks.


Well off topic but I don't quite get the Alun Wyn Jones pick but maybe that's because I'm not a huge rugby fan. Agree that the other picks were obvious though.


The selection can be a bit political. They will always have at least one of the minority nations in there, otherwise it would be English SPOTY. Even though the population of N. Ireland, Wales and Scotland combined is less than that of greater London.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:58 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?

The answer to both of those questions are pretty obvious and not whats being discussed here.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:59 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?


I don't think anyone is suggesting anything different.

Johnson just brought it up as an interesting point. There isn't much controversy in the choices. They're the obvious picks.


Well off topic but I don't quite get the Alun Wyn Jones pick but maybe that's because I'm not a huge rugby fan. Agree that the other picks were obvious though.


I like saying Alun Wyn Jones' isn't worthy of a pick just to annoy my partner. She's Welsh and rugby runs deep with that lot :-P All he did was bring his team to a panning by South Africa


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?

The answer to both of those questions are pretty obvious and not whats being discussed here.


Actually, it wasn't that obvious to an outsider, hence I asked. Just trying to understand.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?

The answer to both of those questions are pretty obvious and not whats being discussed here.


Actually, it wasn't that obvious to an outsider, hence I asked. Just trying to understand.


Ah, in that case I apologise for jumping the gun.

Its kind of the equivalent of North American Sports man of the year having a final 6 of 4 African Americans, 1 Canadian and an American who grew up in new zealander to new zealander parents.

Which in itself is not that extraordinary but its quite a big different from previous shortlists.

Although thats not a great example as the US population is 13% black compared to 4% in the UK.

Anyway, its a casual observation I made that has been maybe miss interpruted by some.

Not that I want a brexit debate, I just thought it was somewhat ironic that in the midst of Brexit (in which the number 1 issue for leavers was immigration) that SPOTY would be contested by 5 recent immigrants and a Welshman :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Blake wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?

The answer to both of those questions are pretty obvious and not whats being discussed here.


Actually, it wasn't that obvious to an outsider, hence I asked. Just trying to understand.


Ah, in that case I apologise for jumping the gun.

Its kind of the equivalent of North American Sports man of the year having a final 6 of 4 African Americans, 1 Canadian and an American who grew up in new zealander to new zealander parents.

Which in itself is not that extraordinary but its quite a big different from previous shortlists.

Although thats not a great example as the US population is 13% black compared to 4% in the UK.

Anyway, its a casual observation I made that has been maybe miss interpruted by some.

Not that I want a brexit debate, I just thought it was somewhat ironic that in the midst of Brexit (in which the number 1 issue for leavers was immigration) that SPOTY would be contested by 5 recent immigrants and a Welshman :twisted:


Reminds me of the 'joke' following the 'super saturday' of the 2012 London Olympics. A daughter of an immigrant, a Scotsman and a Somalian all walk into a British Nationalist pub.............and everyone bought them a drink.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:00 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Not that I want a brexit debate, I just thought it was somewhat ironic that in the midst of Brexit (in which the number 1 issue for leavers was immigration) that SPOTY would be contested by 5 recent immigrants and a Welshman :twisted:


You've done it again! [Don't worry PF1 I'll not respond!] But this I'll not let lie because it is just wrong! The "5 recent immigrants" only applies to Sterling who came here at around 5 yrs, Dina Asher-Smith was born in Kent, Katarina Johnson-Thompson was born in Liverpool, Alan Wyn Jones was born in Swansea.

I'll leave my other response for another time.


Last edited by Option or Prime on Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:07 pm 
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Junglist wrote:
JN23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Is there any chance the list is just made up to include the best candidates, regardless of race? I don't know much about them, but am curious when race percentages are brought into an equation. Do candidate percentages have to match population demographics?


I don't think anyone is suggesting anything different.

Johnson just brought it up as an interesting point. There isn't much controversy in the choices. They're the obvious picks.


Well off topic but I don't quite get the Alun Wyn Jones pick but maybe that's because I'm not a huge rugby fan. Agree that the other picks were obvious though.


I like saying Alun Wyn Jones' isn't worthy of a pick just to annoy my partner. She's Welsh and rugby runs deep with that lot :-P All he did was bring his team to a panning by South Africa

At least we gave them a better game than the English did 8)

I'd love Lewis to win it, if not then Alun-Wyn. I detest Cricket and don't follow women's sport, although I'm aware of their achievements. Sterling is an odd one for me - he's played well but nowhere near as good as other footballers, certainly not worthy of a SPOTY nomination.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Stokes will win Dina will be second. Hamilton may get third.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Not that I want a brexit debate, I just thought it was somewhat ironic that in the midst of Brexit (in which the number 1 issue for leavers was immigration) that SPOTY would be contested by 5 recent immigrants and a Welshman :twisted:


You done it again! [Don't worry PF1 I'll not respond!] But this I'll not let lie because it is just wrong! The "5 recent immigrants" only applies to Sterling who came here at around 5 yrs, Dina Asher-Smith was born in Kent, Katarina Johnson-Thompson was born in Liverpool, Alan Wyn Jones was born in Swansea.

I'll leave my other response for another time.


Raheem Sterling and Ben Stokes are recent immigrants, Stokes came to the UK aged 12.

The others aside from Jones are 2nd generation immigrants. Actually Hamilton is possibly 3rd generation mixed raced. To me 2nd generation is recent migration, but I guess that is open to interpretation.

I am beginning to sound like Alf Garnet but I myself am actually mixed raced so it’s not an attack like it might seem


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Not that I want a brexit debate, I just thought it was somewhat ironic that in the midst of Brexit (in which the number 1 issue for leavers was immigration) that SPOTY would be contested by 5 recent immigrants and a Welshman :twisted:


You done it again! [Don't worry PF1 I'll not respond!] But this I'll not let lie because it is just wrong! The "5 recent immigrants" only applies to Sterling who came here at around 5 yrs, Dina Asher-Smith was born in Kent, Katarina Johnson-Thompson was born in Liverpool, Alan Wyn Jones was born in Swansea.

I'll leave my other response for another time.


Raheem Sterling and Ben Stokes are recent immigrants, Stokes came to the UK aged 12.

The others aside from Jones are 2nd generation immigrants. Actually Hamilton is possibly 3rd generation mixed raced. To me 2nd generation is recent migration, but I guess that is open to interpretation.

I am beginning to sound like Alf Garnet but I myself am actually mixed raced so it’s not an attack like it might seem


So how long do people have to be in this country to be British rather than immigrants in you mind?

I really think you are being over sensitive here, the qualification for competing in national sports is usually around 3 years. Ask yourself when does an adopted child become part of a family? We are talking years here certainly not generations.

Dina Asher-Smith, Katarina Johnson-Thompson and Lewis Hamilton are all very clearly British, they may have immigrant parents but even those would be mortally offended if you suggested to them that they might not be Brits.

Ask Stokes or Farah if they feel British, if you fight that hard that you win a World cup or Gold medal your commitment cant be questioned.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Not that I want a brexit debate, I just thought it was somewhat ironic that in the midst of Brexit (in which the number 1 issue for leavers was immigration) that SPOTY would be contested by 5 recent immigrants and a Welshman :twisted:


You done it again! [Don't worry PF1 I'll not respond!] But this I'll not let lie because it is just wrong! The "5 recent immigrants" only applies to Sterling who came here at around 5 yrs, Dina Asher-Smith was born in Kent, Katarina Johnson-Thompson was born in Liverpool, Alan Wyn Jones was born in Swansea.

I'll leave my other response for another time.


Raheem Sterling and Ben Stokes are recent immigrants, Stokes came to the UK aged 12.

The others aside from Jones are 2nd generation immigrants. Actually Hamilton is possibly 3rd generation mixed raced. To me 2nd generation is recent migration, but I guess that is open to interpretation.

I am beginning to sound like Alf Garnet but I myself am actually mixed raced so it’s not an attack like it might seem


So how long do people have to be in this country to be British rather than immigrants in you mind?

I really think you are being over sensitive here, the qualification for competing in national sports is usually around 3 years. Ask yourself when does an adopted child become part of a family? We are talking years here certainly not generations.

Dina Asher-Smith, Katarina Johnson-Thompson and Lewis Hamilton are all very clearly British, they may have immigrant parents but even those would be mortally offended if you suggested to them that they might not be Brits.

Ask Stokes or Farah if they feel British, if you fight that hard that you win a World cup or Gold medal your commitment cant be questioned.


I think it may be you who are being over sensitive?

I don't think Johnson is suggesting in anyway that any of these people aren't British.

I think you are perhaps getting the wrong end of the stick. Johnson hasn't suggested there is anything wrong with the nominations.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:25 pm 
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Drop this line of conversation now please guys.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:36 pm 
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I am being over sensitive, over what?

Where did I question there Britishness? I never have. Britain, or England I should say is a land of immigrants, it has been for centuries. To me, this is my favourite SPOTY list, I am pro immigrant. My grandmother is an immigrant and my wife is too.

What I put to you is this. You said the list is not improbable or unusual in anyway. That's how this debate began. I clearly demonstrated this list is extremely different from all previous ones. That is a fact, this is not an opinion and that was my point to begin with and how this conversation began.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Johnson. I have had to intervene in this thread twice now. Again, drop this conversation. It's not relevant to Lewis any more.

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