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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:03 pm 
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40 threads on page 1 of the forum section and nary a cross word about the lousy state of "rubber" Pirelli produces for F1.

They have Supersoft, Ultrasoft and Hypersoft rubber that run half a race and Soft tires that blister up in a dozen laps......., as we saw at Monza 2018 a fortnight ago.

Why is it they cannot produce tires that perform to specific specs at each track that match their names and design parameters?

IMHO, Pirelli tires are (fill in the blank here with your favorite curse word, which is not allowed, I prefer excrement)!

F1 needs a tire manufacturer that can produce quality rubber each race that teams can depend on instead of rubber that is like a dice toss.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:04 pm 
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There's been loads of chat about tyres on this forum over many many years.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:12 pm 
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That's probably because F1 doesn't care about the opinion of serious fans. I used to call them circus tyres, somebody else called them comedy tyres a few seasons ago. I think you must have missed quite a few comments about them.

To my mind, circus tyres were deemed necessary to be able to enforce pitstops, which is ironic, considering Pirelli's first GP win was scored by not stopping in an era when pitstops had become nearly de rigueur.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Seriously? Can't say you're looking very hard, then. There have been innumerable complaints about the tyres almost from the moment Pirelli entered.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Seriously? Can't say you're looking very hard, then. There have been innumerable complaints about the tyres almost from the moment Pirelli entered.


Didn't say there have been "no" comments on lousy Pirelli rubber, I've read plenty over the seasons of Pirelli screwups here, just seemed folks have accepted the fact that race to race one cannot depend on Pirelli and have become complacent to that fact.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:51 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Seriously? Can't say you're looking very hard, then. There have been innumerable complaints about the tyres almost from the moment Pirelli entered.


Didn't say there have been "no" comments on lousy Pirelli rubber, I've read plenty over the seasons of Pirelli screwups here, just seemed folks have accepted the fact that race to race one cannot depend on Pirelli and have become complacent to that fact.

There are only so many times one can rail against the inevitable. I don't think people are complacent about it, just that they are powerless to affect change and why keep banging on against something that is a fact of F1 now?

But when the possibility of change came up people were all over it, hence the comments in the tyre tender thread. And more than one person has complained in the "liking F1" thread about the tyres. I know I've been very vocal about them myself and most recently complained about them at Monza, so I do think it's something that has never gone away and doesn't really warrant the "nary a comment" line.

The tyres are garbage. Everybody knows it. But they serve the FIA's purpose to introduce artificial entertainment enhancers and won't change while that agenda is pursued


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Because they're too busy watching and discussing the exciting racing and season unfold?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:07 pm 
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There have been plenty of complaints about the tyres, they are universally unpopular, certainly on this forum. However this is our 8th season with them, their shortcomings are old news and there is nothing new to discuss.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:44 pm 
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j man wrote:
There have been plenty of complaints about the tyres, they are universally unpopular, certainly on this forum. However this is our 8th season with them, their shortcomings are old news and there is nothing new to discuss.

^^^^
THIS....

But the ATRs on my Amarok are brilliant...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:09 pm 
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These 2018 spec tires are actually the best Pirelli has ever produced for f1. It used to be a lot worse than this. Back in early 2013 I think that was the lowest point with delamination and tire explosions a common occurrence.. 2014-2016 were also dreadful and reduced the races to pure tire conservation exercises. Now at least drivers can push harder during the race. They are still not great but they have gotten better. So Pirelli has actually improved. However there were talks about going back to higher degradation tires in the future. Heres hoping that they don’t come to fruition.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:51 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
These 2018 spec tires are actually the best Pirelli has ever produced for f1. It used to be a lot worse than this. Back in early 2013 I think that was the lowest point with delamination and tire explosions a common occurrence.. 2014-2016 were also dreadful and reduced the races to pure tire conservation exercises. Now at least drivers can push harder during the race. They are still not great but they have gotten better. So Pirelli has actually improved. However there were talks about going back to higher degradation tires in the future. Heres hoping that they don’t come to fruition.

yeah I'd agree these are better than at any point in Pirelli's tenure as sole supplier. But I'd still put them down as the best of a bad lot


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Pirelli were told to make tyres that last a certain number of laps. They can always of course make durable tyres if they were told to do so too!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Something needs to be done about nearly every race being a 1 stopper, when overtaking is so difficult then at least make strategy an interesting addition to F1 races.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:41 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Something needs to be done about nearly every race being a 1 stopper, when overtaking is so difficult then at least make strategy an interesting addition to F1 races.


So, back to comedy tyres!
;)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:54 pm 
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The tires used today are vastly better than the off-the rack, treaded, bicycle tires used in the fifties... Just sayin...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:31 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
The tires used today are vastly better than the off-the rack, treaded, bicycle tires used in the fifties... Just sayin...

Saying what exactly?

That technology has gone forward in 60+ years?

Who compared the tyres of late with the ones from the 50's?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:50 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Something needs to be done about nearly every race being a 1 stopper, when overtaking is so difficult then at least make strategy an interesting addition to F1 races.


So, back to comedy tyres!
;)


I'll take that over these comedy tyres. Its got to the point you might aswell just make tyres last the whole race, 1 stop does nothing to the racing.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:56 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Something needs to be done about nearly every race being a 1 stopper, when overtaking is so difficult then at least make strategy an interesting addition to F1 races.


So, back to comedy tyres!
;)


I'll take that over these comedy tyres. Its got to the point you might aswell just make tyres last the whole race, 1 stop does nothing to the racing.


Generally speaking every race is a one stopper because it's so hard to overtake rather than because of the tyres. The fastest way to get round Singapore would've probably been a three stopper but track position is king.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Something needs to be done about nearly every race being a 1 stopper, when overtaking is so difficult then at least make strategy an interesting addition to F1 races.


So, back to comedy tyres!
;)


I'll take that over these comedy tyres. Its got to the point you might aswell just make tyres last the whole race, 1 stop does nothing to the racing.


Generally speaking every race is a one stopper because it's so hard to overtake rather than because of the tyres. The fastest way to get round Singapore would've probably been a three stopper but track position is king.

Spot on. There's no way that crawling around for 20 laps trying to keep the hypersofts in shape was the fastest way to run that race.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:05 pm 
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j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Something needs to be done about nearly every race being a 1 stopper, when overtaking is so difficult then at least make strategy an interesting addition to F1 races.


So, back to comedy tyres!
;)


I'll take that over these comedy tyres. Its got to the point you might aswell just make tyres last the whole race, 1 stop does nothing to the racing.


Generally speaking every race is a one stopper because it's so hard to overtake rather than because of the tyres. The fastest way to get round Singapore would've probably been a three stopper but track position is king.

Spot on. There's no way that crawling around for 20 laps trying to keep the hypersofts in shape was the fastest way to run that race.


It's Singapore, why would you pit more than you have to when it's impossible to overtake. I'm talking about the season as a whole, we rarely if ever see anything move than a one stopper even at the few tracks which overtaking is possible.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:46 am 
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We don't say anything because there's no point, but also because while they are lukewarm feces, they are less feces than in seasons past. For now we have to accept that drivers will only drive the the limits of the Grade-A Cheese tires rather that to the limits of their abilities.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:11 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
We don't say anything because there's no point, but also because while they are lukewarm feces, they are less feces than in seasons past. For now we have to accept that drivers will only drive the the limits of the Grade-A Cheese tires rather that to the limits of their abilities.


I don't think it's the tyres atm tbh. On most tracks more aggressive two or three stop strategies were available and feasible tyre-wise. However, if you give the teams the choice, they all choose the most conservative option. They mostly prefer not to let their drivers race and seek to avoid infights, risk of driving errors and taking the technologies to the limits. We actually saw the same attitude throughout most of the refuelling era where drivers were often told not to attack on track but rather wait for the pit stops (conserving fuel and tyres by lift and coast).

So, either the tyres force them to pit because even conserving is not enough ("comedy tyres"), or they will all minimize stops. More strategy freedom = more homogeneous strategies = more processions, in reality.

Drivers fighting full-flat through the whole race is a dream that rarely came through across all eras.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:08 pm 
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So, to those people who are complaining about the tyres.

If you were the FIA and were considering going out to tender for a new tyre supplier, what characteristics would you be looking for in the tyre variations


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:22 pm 
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inky38 wrote:
So, to those people who are complaining about the tyres.

If you were the FIA and were considering going out to tender for a new tyre supplier, what characteristics would you be looking for in the tyre variations

I wrote a fairly detailed reply but the blased forum wiped it for me x(

So I'll point you to this link instead:

https://www.motorcyclesports.net/motogp/piero-taramasso-explains-the-differences-between-the-tires-compounds-of-motogp/


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Complaining about F1 tyres is a waste of time because half the people want durable tyres and the other half want cheese tyres.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:06 pm 
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inky38 wrote:
So, to those people who are complaining about the tyres.

If you were the FIA and were considering going out to tender for a new tyre supplier, what characteristics would you be looking for in the tyre variations

Honestly I would rather bring back refuelling and have race strategy dictated by primarily fuel loads rather than tyres. Then bring a hard and a soft tyre to each race, with the hard able to complete a race distance and the soft able to complete about half, and both should be much less thermally sensitive and should be able to withstand being pushed on for multiple consecutive laps. None of this nonsense with qualifying tyres or having to start on the tyres you qualified on or having to run both compounds. Just run the fastest race you can with total flexibility over the amount of fuel in the car and the tyres that you use.

We had this in the late 90s and early 00s and I thought it was much more interesting strategy-wise with a genuine mix of one, two or sometimes three stop strategies (or even four, as Schumacher and Ferrari did once). I think refuelling was unfairly scapegoated as the reason for the poor racing in that era, when the problem was so clearly the fundamental design of the cars. And it still is, despite all the contrived workarounds they've thrown at the problem since.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:18 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Complaining about F1 tyres is a waste of time because half the people want durable tyres and the other half want cheese tyres.

It's simply not that simple.

Durable doesn't necessarily mean bulletproof. Other series have durable tires that wear long but indeed do drop off at some point.
Duels like this classic can once again be possible with better quality "rubber" because real rubber has a tendency to offer superior performance to synthetic, and even the marbles rubber leaves behind are less dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii6H0MktrOg

On modern day race tires you can literally pinch them with your fingernails and pull off a chunk because they are that soft. I've seen this from karts all the way to F1 and in all series that feature artificial rubber tires, they all tend to be tricky to get up to temperature, and too slow or too fast to get in the desired range results in glazing which then leads to skating. And once they're in the prime operating range they become more like clay which is why drivers have to manage them rather than continue to push limits farther.

I'd love to see Bridgestone and Michelin back in, giving us good ole tire wars. I know many will disagree, but different tires can be just like the much beloved rain in that it gives lesser teams a shot at certain tracks and mixed results which leads to less procession, which is what we all want.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:58 am 
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The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:20 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:31 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.


As opposed to what we have now eh?

I can't begin to think how having more strategic options would lead to more processional races than we have now.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:35 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.

Processional racing is down to a lot more than tyres, though, to be fair. The tyres were never actually the problem; it was the problem of following in dirty air and the "fix," if it can even be called that, was to divert attention away from that by making the tyres fall apart and so turn it into a race to see who could protect their tyres the best. But they never actually addressed the core problem and it could be argued that they made it worse.

But I would say that I don't think they do have tyres that can last a whole distance, not at proper racing speeds. There's a reason why lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and it's not all down to fuel loads. The tyres need a disproportionate amount of management


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.


As opposed to what we have now eh?

I can't begin to think how having more strategic options would lead to more processional races than we have now.


I wrote a lenghty paragraph further up in this thread why I think conservative strategy choices by teams mean that the theoretical number of options does not matter. Teams will just converge to one and the same strategy. I am not going to repeat every detail, see above.

I am not a fan of the current Pirelli tyre generation, but they do offer a lot of strategy options. Teams decide to do all the same.

In comparison to the early 2000s borefests, 2018 races are actually action-packed (with some exceptions, of course).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.

Processional racing is down to a lot more than tyres, though, to be fair. The tyres were never actually the problem; it was the problem of following in dirty air and the "fix," if it can even be called that, was to divert attention away from that by making the tyres fall apart and so turn it into a race to see who could protect their tyres the best. But they never actually addressed the core problem and it could be argued that they made it worse.

But I would say that I don't think they do have tyres that can last a whole distance, not at proper racing speeds. There's a reason why lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and it's not all down to fuel loads. The tyres need a disproportionate amount of management


I agree that the main problem is the dirty air issue. Still, introducing durable tyres that can be raced full-race-length before the dirty air problem is solved will just make things worse IMO.

Nursing tyres in slow speed driving instead of aggressive racing (with additional stops) in Singapore were team decisions. The tyres allowed for both.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
The tires used today are vastly better than the off-the rack, treaded, bicycle tires used in the fifties... Just sayin...

Saying what exactly?

That technology has gone forward in 60+ years?

Who compared the tyres of late with the ones from the 50's?


Point was that drivers from all eras complained about the tires. Tires have always been the common scapegoat in F1, and motor racing in general.

At least all teams compete on the same tires, no matter how good or "bad" they are.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.

Processional racing is down to a lot more than tyres, though, to be fair. The tyres were never actually the problem; it was the problem of following in dirty air and the "fix," if it can even be called that, was to divert attention away from that by making the tyres fall apart and so turn it into a race to see who could protect their tyres the best. But they never actually addressed the core problem and it could be argued that they made it worse.

But I would say that I don't think they do have tyres that can last a whole distance, not at proper racing speeds. There's a reason why lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and it's not all down to fuel loads. The tyres need a disproportionate amount of management


I agree that the main problem is the dirty air issue. Still, introducing durable tyres that can be raced full-race-length before the dirty air problem is solved will just make things worse IMO.

Nursing tyres in slow speed driving instead of aggressive racing (with additional stops) in Singapore were team decisions. The tyres allowed for both.
Did they, though? That would have been a big risk for the front runner, who would have had to be confident he could build up a sufficient gap to pit without the guy behind him overtaking him by going slower on a one stop strategy. By going slower he gets the same result with much less risk

And at Monza it was the tyres that wrecked Kimi's race chances. More durable ones would have allowed him to push and not roll over when Hamilton passed him.

There's an argument - put forward by Michelin after rejecting the opportunity to bid for 2021 - that more durable tyres could actually benefit the racing, as they would allow drivers to follow one another more closely and for longer, without fear that this would wreck their race. Comedy tyres do allow for more spectacular moments by creating a massive imbalance between cars, but I'd argue that not real racing and makes things unnecessarily artificial.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The sport currently has a tyre available that'll do an entire race distance without falling apart & it has a tyre that'll fall apart after a few hard racing laps. It also has half a dozen variants in between.

All that has to be done is to do away with mandatory pit stops & mandatory usages of multi compounds & let the teams decide what what compounds they want to use.

Problem fixed


If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.

Processional racing is down to a lot more than tyres, though, to be fair. The tyres were never actually the problem; it was the problem of following in dirty air and the "fix," if it can even be called that, was to divert attention away from that by making the tyres fall apart and so turn it into a race to see who could protect their tyres the best. But they never actually addressed the core problem and it could be argued that they made it worse.

But I would say that I don't think they do have tyres that can last a whole distance, not at proper racing speeds. There's a reason why lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and it's not all down to fuel loads. The tyres need a disproportionate amount of management


I agree that the main problem is the dirty air issue. Still, introducing durable tyres that can be raced full-race-length before the dirty air problem is solved will just make things worse IMO.

Nursing tyres in slow speed driving instead of aggressive racing (with additional stops) in Singapore were team decisions. The tyres allowed for both.
Did they, though? That would have been a big risk for the front runner, who would have had to be confident he could build up a sufficient gap to pit without the guy behind him overtaking him by going slower on a one stop strategy. By going slower he gets the same result with much less risk

And at Monza it was the tyres that wrecked Kimi's race chances. More durable ones would have allowed him to push and not roll over when Hamilton passed him.

There's an argument - put forward by Michelin after rejecting the opportunity to bid for 2021 - that more durable tyres could actually benefit the racing, as they would allow drivers to follow one another more closely and for longer, without fear that this would wreck their race. Comedy tyres do allow for more spectacular moments by creating a massive imbalance between cars, but I'd argue that not real racing and makes things unnecessarily artificial.



Well, Räikkönen wrecking his tyres in Monza may well be a problem of Räikkönen - and not so much of the tyres, as many others did not wreck them.

I hear Michelin's reasoning. Still, the risk going to durable tyres without solving the dirty air problem first would enormous IMO.

But actually I was more opposing the idea that changes in tyres would create an increase in strategy choice variety.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
If you call processional races where everyone races on the same strategy "problem fixed", then you are right.

Processional racing is down to a lot more than tyres, though, to be fair. The tyres were never actually the problem; it was the problem of following in dirty air and the "fix," if it can even be called that, was to divert attention away from that by making the tyres fall apart and so turn it into a race to see who could protect their tyres the best. But they never actually addressed the core problem and it could be argued that they made it worse.

But I would say that I don't think they do have tyres that can last a whole distance, not at proper racing speeds. There's a reason why lap times are so much slower than qualifying times and it's not all down to fuel loads. The tyres need a disproportionate amount of management


I agree that the main problem is the dirty air issue. Still, introducing durable tyres that can be raced full-race-length before the dirty air problem is solved will just make things worse IMO.

Nursing tyres in slow speed driving instead of aggressive racing (with additional stops) in Singapore were team decisions. The tyres allowed for both.
Did they, though? That would have been a big risk for the front runner, who would have had to be confident he could build up a sufficient gap to pit without the guy behind him overtaking him by going slower on a one stop strategy. By going slower he gets the same result with much less risk

And at Monza it was the tyres that wrecked Kimi's race chances. More durable ones would have allowed him to push and not roll over when Hamilton passed him.

There's an argument - put forward by Michelin after rejecting the opportunity to bid for 2021 - that more durable tyres could actually benefit the racing, as they would allow drivers to follow one another more closely and for longer, without fear that this would wreck their race. Comedy tyres do allow for more spectacular moments by creating a massive imbalance between cars, but I'd argue that not real racing and makes things unnecessarily artificial.



Well, Räikkönen wrecking his tyres in Monza may well be a problem of Räikkönen - and not so much of the tyres, as many others did not wreck them.

I hear Michelin's reasoning. Still, the risk going to durable tyres without solving the dirty air problem first would enormous IMO.

But actually I was more opposing the idea that changes in tyres would create an increase in strategy choice variety.

:thumbup:


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