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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:50 am 
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BoxFullofNeutrals wrote:
amirb wrote:
I can see the problem with Hamilton starting at a top team is where does he go after? He's only been in a top team so, if he does not get a contract renewal, where does he go and will he be able to race as well


That'll depend entirely on his performances as to whether other top teams would be interested in offering him a seat. Until the start of this season, Red bull has been the most successful team for two/three years, so there are teams that can offer the potential to win races/championships other than McLaren...


Plus successful teams are only successfull for so long, the cycle never stops rotating...

Even if we look at the past two decades...

90-91 McLaren
92-94 Williams
95 Benetton
96-97 Williams
98 McLaren
99-04 Ferrari
05-06 Renault
07-08 Ferrari
09 Brawn
10-11 RBR

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:52 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Tumppi57 wrote:
Hamilton made ALOT of mistakes in 2007/2008 and still does. Which means he hasnt learnt to drive yet still. He should have started off in team similar to Sauber (2001), Minardi (2001) or Jordan (1992). He would have learned there how to drive, instead of for example hitting the car infront on pit lane when light is red. :evil:



What was it nine podiums in the first nine races or something. Did all those mistakes at the beginning of his F1 career wipe out everyone outside the top 3??

Jordan '92. do you mean Jordan '91?? Less than one lap is hardly cutting your teeth and learning to drive in the lower echelons.

The way I see it. Lewis was the first of a new breed. Rather than have to work through the levels fighting their way. almost pimping themselves out to get noticed by the top of F1. He was selected at a young age. I would liken it to football teams who sign kids at 5 and put them through their academies these days. If they showed promise they stay contracted. Some get loaned out some get put into the first team. Some get dropped and end up in the SPL.

Vettel is of the same mould. Except he got loaned out and then put into the reserves before hitting the champions league squad. Luizzi, Speed, Bourdouis got dropped and ended up in the SPL. Buemi moved on to the first team reserves.

Bianchi, Perez are all part of this new generation. It's new and they don't know what they are doing there is no "Proper" way yet . Whitmarsh has already stated they made mistakes with the way they brought Lewis up. Mistakes they will learn from .


Vettel started his F1 career in 2007 United States GP (only 1 race for this team) in BMW Sauber and finished 8th if i recall correctly, then last half of 2007 and 2008 he drove for Toro Rosso (took 1st win for the team in a car that was not a race winning caliber car in Italy 2008) and then Red Bull since 2009 (again took 1st win for the team in China). With Vettel we can say he was learning to drive in non-race winning teams and made 2 of them race winning teams. Unlike our friend Hamilton who was given it all in a gold plate.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:56 am 
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I think he comes as arrogant many times and when you combine this to starting straight from the top it just makes him an easy target for hate. He has had had a crappy car once and even that year McLaren managed to turn it to a winner.

If you compare that to likes of Häkkinen or Button, you can see why many would consider him "spoiled". The fact that he's very good as a driver makes it even worse. There's the same hating vibe going on with Vettel even though he started from Toro Rosso.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:01 am 
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Tumppi57 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Tumppi57 wrote:
Hamilton made ALOT of mistakes in 2007/2008 and still does. Which means he hasnt learnt to drive yet still. He should have started off in team similar to Sauber (2001), Minardi (2001) or Jordan (1992). He would have learned there how to drive, instead of for example hitting the car infront on pit lane when light is red. :evil:



What was it nine podiums in the first nine races or something. Did all those mistakes at the beginning of his F1 career wipe out everyone outside the top 3??

Jordan '92. do you mean Jordan '91?? Less than one lap is hardly cutting your teeth and learning to drive in the lower echelons.

The way I see it. Lewis was the first of a new breed. Rather than have to work through the levels fighting their way. almost pimping themselves out to get noticed by the top of F1. He was selected at a young age. I would liken it to football teams who sign kids at 5 and put them through their academies these days. If they showed promise they stay contracted. Some get loaned out some get put into the first team. Some get dropped and end up in the SPL.
Vettel is of the same mould. Except he got loaned out and then put into the reserves before hitting the champions league squad. Luizzi, Speed, Bourdouis got dropped and ended up in the SPL. Buemi moved on to the first team reserves.

Bianchi, Perez are all part of this new generation. It's new and they don't know what they are doing there is no "Proper" way yet . Whitmarsh has already stated they made mistakes with the way they brought Lewis up. Mistakes they will learn from .


Vettel started his F1 career in 2007 United States GP (only 1 race for this team) in BMW Sauber and finished 8th if i recall correctly, then last half of 2007 and 2008 he drove for Toro Rosso (took 1st win for the team in a car that was not a race winning caliber car in Italy 2008) and then Red Bull since 2009 (again took 1st win for the team in China). With Vettel we can say he was learning to drive in non-race winning teams and made 2 of them race winning teams. Unlike our friend Hamilton who was given it all in a gold plate.

What A BS about the Gold Plate, Vettel was always a RBR protegee. And BMW wasn't a backmarker to start with
Lewis had to earn everything at McLaren, he had to win évery lower series compared to Vettel who had not, and was given a F1 seat without winning GP2
There have always been other young drivers at McLaren development programm, Lewis Hamilton was the only one who came through, therfore he earned his F1 seat there.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:07 am 
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Sabrina wrote:
What A BS about the Gold Plate, Vettel was always a RBR protegee. And BMW wasn't a backmarker to start with
Lewis had to earn everything at McLaren, he had to win évery lower series compared to Vettel who had not, and was given a F1 seat without winning GP2
There have always been other young drivers at McLaren development programm, Lewis Hamilton was the only one who came through, therfore he earned his F1 seat there.


Are you serioulsy telling me Hamilton wasn't a McLaren protege?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am 
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Tumppi57 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Tumppi57 wrote:
Hamilton made ALOT of mistakes in 2007/2008 and still does. Which means he hasnt learnt to drive yet still. He should have started off in team similar to Sauber (2001), Minardi (2001) or Jordan (1992). He would have learned there how to drive, instead of for example hitting the car infront on pit lane when light is red. :evil:



What was it nine podiums in the first nine races or something. Did all those mistakes at the beginning of his F1 career wipe out everyone outside the top 3??

Jordan '92. do you mean Jordan '91?? Less than one lap is hardly cutting your teeth and learning to drive in the lower echelons.

The way I see it. Lewis was the first of a new breed. Rather than have to work through the levels fighting their way. almost pimping themselves out to get noticed by the top of F1. He was selected at a young age. I would liken it to football teams who sign kids at 5 and put them through their academies these days. If they showed promise they stay contracted. Some get loaned out some get put into the first team. Some get dropped and end up in the SPL.

Vettel is of the same mould. Except he got loaned out and then put into the reserves before hitting the champions league squad. Luizzi, Speed, Bourdouis got dropped and ended up in the SPL. Buemi moved on to the first team reserves.

Bianchi, Perez are all part of this new generation. It's new and they don't know what they are doing there is no "Proper" way yet . Whitmarsh has already stated they made mistakes with the way they brought Lewis up. Mistakes they will learn from .


Vettel started his F1 career in 2007 United States GP (only 1 race for this team) in BMW Sauber and finished 8th if i recall correctly, then last half of 2007 and 2008 he drove for Toro Rosso (took 1st win for the team in a car that was not a race winning caliber car in Italy 2008) and then Red Bull since 2009 (again took 1st win for the team in China). With Vettel we can say he was learning to drive in non-race winning teams and made 2 of them race winning teams. Unlike our friend Hamilton who was given it all in a gold plate.


You don't learn to drive in F1. You do that in karts and lower series. In F1 you are considered one of the absolute bests. Saying someone should learn to drive by going to small team first is, frankly, ridiculous. If you look at Hamilton success in lower series it was obvious that he was going to get to F1 sooner or later and might be really good. Pretty much winning everything before F1 pays off sometimes.

It's just a romantic thought that a driver should be put in a bad car where he struggles and learns all the values in life and then, after several hard years of work, gets a winning car. Saying that Hamilton's mistakes are only due to him starting straight from a top team is really stupid.


Last edited by Bosse on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:25 am 
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petef1 wrote:
Williams, although in a downward spiral, were still considered one of the top teams when Jenson joined, so not sure I agree with you there. Villeneueve, Hill and Coulthard all walked into WDC contending teams; all at Willilams incidentally.


Again, I don't want do discuss Button's career. Here's what other poster wrote earlier:

muse wrote:
I remember it annoyed the hell out of me as I was waiting very patiently for Webber to be given a chance at a top drive, and some rookie was given it straight up. Many a fist shake was had.


That's what my thought was all about.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:29 am 
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petef1 wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
What A BS about the Gold Plate, Vettel was always a RBR protegee. And BMW wasn't a backmarker to start with
Lewis had to earn everything at McLaren, he had to win évery lower series compared to Vettel who had not, and was given a F1 seat without winning GP2
There have always been other young drivers at McLaren development programm, Lewis Hamilton was the only one who came through, therfore he earned his F1 seat there.


Are you serioulsy telling me Hamilton wasn't a McLaren protege?

Read my quote again

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:34 am 
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K__rr wrote:
petef1 wrote:
Williams, although in a downward spiral, were still considered one of the top teams when Jenson joined, so not sure I agree with you there. Villeneueve, Hill and Coulthard all walked into WDC contending teams; all at Willilams incidentally.


Again, I don't want do discuss Button's career. Here's what other poster wrote earlier:

muse wrote:
I remember it annoyed the hell out of me as I was waiting very patiently for Webber to be given a chance at a top drive, and some rookie was given it straight up. Many a fist shake was had.


That's what my thought was all about.


But I'm giving you examples of drivers whom have got 'considered top drives' in their rookie years.

Had it occured to you that McLaren would have considered the likes of Webber in 2007?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:40 am 
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People are just using the same mentality as when they say "Vettel is only strong in a Newy car"

Nobody knows what he Lewis can do in a midfield team as Maclaren has always been in the top three.

We know Senna was outstanding in midfield team
We know Schumi was outstanding in midfield team
We know Kimi was outstanding in midfield team
We Know Alonso was outstanding in midfield team
We even know Vettel was outstanding in midfield team

We also know Villeneuve, Hill, Button, were not so special midfield but certainly look special in a top team which kind of unfairly puts Lewis in this category because he was never in a midfield team.
He showed a promising sign in 2009 when Maclaren started badly, but its kind of expected that Maclaren would make a quick comeback given their resources and the depth of their development team.

So for now we will never know, and its not the right timing at the moment for Lewis to make that move just to prove something. He will have to wait to win a few more championships with Maclaren or any top team, and them maybe make the move to a team like Lotus that does have championship winning potential but are just in a midfield slump. Or just ignore this mentality.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:42 am 
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Sabrina wrote:
Read my quote again


Hamilton was with the MYDP since he was 13 years old. Do you not think having the one of the most famous names in world motorsport supporting you and giving you access to resources unavailable to his competitors gives a bit of an edge?

And Jenson Button, nor Fernando Alonso, whom have three WDC's between them never won their respective championships before entering F1, just like Vettel, who has two WDC's himself.

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Last edited by petef1 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:46 am 
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AravJ wrote:
People are just using the same mentality as when they say "Vettel is only strong in a Newy car"

Nobody knows what he Lewis can do in a midfield team as Maclaren has always been in the top three.

We know Senna was outstanding in midfield team
We know Schumi was outstanding in midfield team
We know Kimi was outstanding in midfield team
We Know Alonso was outstanding in midfield team
We even know Vettel was outstanding in midfield team

We also know Villeneuve, Hill, Button, were not so special midfield but certainly look special in a top team which kind of unfairly puts Lewis in this category because he was never in a midfield team.
He showed a promising sign in 2009 when Maclaren started badly, but its kind of expected that Maclaren would make a quick comeback given their resources and the depth of their development team.

So for now we will never know, and its not the right timing at the moment for Lewis to make that move just to prove something. He will have to wait to win a few more championships with Maclaren or any top team, and them maybe make the move to a team like Lotus that does have championship winning potential but are just in a midfield slump. Or just ignore this mentality.


Are we omitting 2000, 2003, 2004 & 2006 from this?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:05 am 
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Bosse wrote:
I think he comes as arrogant many times and when you combine this to starting straight from the top it just makes him an easy target for hate. He has had had a crappy car once and even that year McLaren managed to turn it to a winner.


This is what many Hamilton fans forget. IMHO, he is more arrogant than any other driver in history, and it displeases the sporting crowd. He would have much more appreciating people was it not for his arrogance.

On the other hand, those that dislike Hamilton often forget that he is anyway a top driver, regardless of the machine he drives. His GP2 drives seriously stunned me. You could see that he is a legend in making.

The bottom line is that it was Mclaren that pulled the risk and made him a protege. Excellent choice, I may add.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:08 am 
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petef1 wrote:

But I'm giving you examples of drivers whom have got 'considered top drives' in their rookie years.


Ok, so what?

petef1 wrote:

Had it occured to you that McLaren would have considered the likes of Webber in 2007?


You still don't get me. It's not about what I think. I was trying to put myself into head of someone whose way of thinking is similar to a orginal poster's friend. I got idea, which I've shared with you, but that's not neccesary my perceiving on this matter.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:10 am 
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K__rr wrote:
petef1 wrote:

But I'm giving you examples of drivers whom have got 'considered top drives' in their rookie years.


Ok, so what?

petef1 wrote:

Had it occured to you that McLaren would have considered the likes of Webber in 2007?


You still don't get me. It's not about what I think. I was trying to put myself into head of someone whose way of thinking is similar to a orginal poster's friend. I got idea, which I've shared with you, but that's not neccesary my perceiving on this matter.


I don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about in all honesty. I guess it's better to leave it there.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:24 am 
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Tumppi57 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Tumppi57 wrote:
Hamilton made ALOT of mistakes in 2007/2008 and still does. Which means he hasnt learnt to drive yet still. He should have started off in team similar to Sauber (2001), Minardi (2001) or Jordan (1992). He would have learned there how to drive, instead of for example hitting the car infront on pit lane when light is red. :evil:



What was it nine podiums in the first nine races or something. Did all those mistakes at the beginning of his F1 career wipe out everyone outside the top 3??

Jordan '92. do you mean Jordan '91?? Less than one lap is hardly cutting your teeth and learning to drive in the lower echelons.

The way I see it. Lewis was the first of a new breed. Rather than have to work through the levels fighting their way. almost pimping themselves out to get noticed by the top of F1. He was selected at a young age. I would liken it to football teams who sign kids at 5 and put them through their academies these days. If they showed promise they stay contracted. Some get loaned out some get put into the first team. Some get dropped and end up in the SPL.

Vettel is of the same mould. Except he got loaned out and then put into the reserves before hitting the champions league squad. Luizzi, Speed, Bourdouis got dropped and ended up in the SPL. Buemi moved on to the first team reserves.

Bianchi, Perez are all part of this new generation. It's new and they don't know what they are doing there is no "Proper" way yet . Whitmarsh has already stated they made mistakes with the way they brought Lewis up. Mistakes they will learn from .


Vettel started his F1 career in 2007 United States GP (only 1 race for this team) in BMW Sauber and finished 8th if i recall correctly, then last half of 2007 and 2008 he drove for Toro Rosso (took 1st win for the team in a car that was not a race winning caliber car in Italy 2008) and then Red Bull since 2009 (again took 1st win for the team in China). With Vettel we can say he was learning to drive in non-race winning teams and made 2 of them race winning teams. Unlike our friend Hamilton who was given it all in a gold plate.



He was still picked up young and groomed by Red Bull for stardom.

Where McLaren took Lewis and put him straight into their number one team. Red Bull Took Seb loaned him to BMW and then put him in their b team before promoting him to the a squad.

Ferrari have done the same with Perez and Bianchi.

But ultimately they have all been of the new style of being picked up at a young age and put through the ranks with one goal. To ultimately end up in the first team. They have had a link to a team for the majority of their racing careers . They have had the help of the Team all the way through to make sure they take a chosen path in the hope it make them the best in the world. The F1 team has been there for support and advice from an Early age . Even having training in P.R. (I know a guy who did similar through a rally team. He got sent on a course to teach them how to handle interviews with journos. Lessons on public image, body language. How to deal with sponsors. Doing mock TV interviews and speeches)

This differs from the previous generation of say Webber. Who had to fund his own way through the ranks. Find his own Formula ford team, find his own way through the ranks. Basically pimp himself out to Minardi then work to get into Williams etc.

It's a new way of finding F1 drivers of the future. Although it's been going years it is only now we are seeing the kids that were signed in Karts filtering through. Lewis was the first that people actually noticed was there through this route and it has been seen as being handed it on a silver platter. Where as there are many others but their teams for one reason or another wanted their protégées to not go straight into their A team like McLaren did.

The thing is when McLaren signed and worked with Lewis there was no proven route it had never been done before. He was the first attempt by McLaren and they didn't know what they were doing and have admitted they have made mistakes.

Think of it like this.

The likes of Webber even Schui, Alonso etc = City and guilds apprenticeship into F1.

Lewis, Vettel, Riccardio, Perez, even DiResta = the New NVQ way.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:07 pm 
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He's not seen as having done an "apprenticeship" at a lower/midfield team but that doesn't lower his achievements any. He still had to beat his team mate in 2007, a 2x WDC winning team mate and he did. You can't ask much more than that. That was his apprenticeship, he just did it in the lion's den. Drivers like Michael Andretti had a similar chance to Lewis and he completely blew it, Lewis grabbed his chance with both hands.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Tumppi57 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Tumppi57 wrote:
Hamilton made ALOT of mistakes in 2007/2008 and still does. Which means he hasnt learnt to drive yet still. He should have started off in team similar to Sauber (2001), Minardi (2001) or Jordan (1992). He would have learned there how to drive, instead of for example hitting the car infront on pit lane when light is red. :evil:



What was it nine podiums in the first nine races or something. Did all those mistakes at the beginning of his F1 career wipe out everyone outside the top 3??

Jordan '92. do you mean Jordan '91?? Less than one lap is hardly cutting your teeth and learning to drive in the lower echelons.

The way I see it. Lewis was the first of a new breed. Rather than have to work through the levels fighting their way. almost pimping themselves out to get noticed by the top of F1. He was selected at a young age. I would liken it to football teams who sign kids at 5 and put them through their academies these days. If they showed promise they stay contracted. Some get loaned out some get put into the first team. Some get dropped and end up in the SPL.

Vettel is of the same mould. Except he got loaned out and then put into the reserves before hitting the champions league squad. Luizzi, Speed, Bourdouis got dropped and ended up in the SPL. Buemi moved on to the first team reserves.

Bianchi, Perez are all part of this new generation. It's new and they don't know what they are doing there is no "Proper" way yet . Whitmarsh has already stated they made mistakes with the way they brought Lewis up. Mistakes they will learn from .


Vettel started his F1 career in 2007 United States GP (only 1 race for this team) in BMW Sauber and finished 8th if i recall correctly, then last half of 2007 and 2008 he drove for Toro Rosso (took 1st win for the team in a car that was not a race winning caliber car in Italy 2008) and then Red Bull since 2009 (again took 1st win for the team in China). With Vettel we can say he was learning to drive in non-race winning teams and made 2 of them race winning teams. Unlike our friend Hamilton who was given it all in a gold plate.



He was still picked up young and groomed by Red Bull for stardom.

Where McLaren took Lewis and put him straight into their number one team. Red Bull Took Seb loaned him to BMW and then put him in their b team before promoting him to the a squad.

Ferrari have done the same with Perez and Bianchi.

But ultimately they have all been of the new style of being picked up at a young age and put through the ranks with one goal. To ultimately end up in the first team. They have had a link to a team for the majority of their racing careers . They have had the help of the Team all the way through to make sure they take a chosen path in the hope it make them the best in the world. The F1 team has been there for support and advice from an Early age . Even having training in P.R. (I know a guy who did similar through a rally team. He got sent on a course to teach them how to handle interviews with journos. Lessons on public image, body language. How to deal with sponsors. Doing mock TV interviews and speeches)

This differs from the previous generation of say Webber. Who had to fund his own way through the ranks. Find his own Formula ford team, find his own way through the ranks. Basically pimp himself out to Minardi then work to get into Williams etc.

It's a new way of finding F1 drivers of the future. Although it's been going years it is only now we are seeing the kids that were signed in Karts filtering through. Lewis was the first that people actually noticed was there through this route and it has been seen as being handed it on a silver platter. Where as there are many others but their teams for one reason or another wanted their protégées to not go straight into their A team like McLaren did.

The thing is when McLaren signed and worked with Lewis there was no proven route it had never been done before. He was the first attempt by McLaren and they didn't know what they were doing and have admitted they have made mistakes.

Think of it like this.

The likes of Webber even Schui, Alonso etc = City and guilds apprenticeship into F1.

Lewis, Vettel, Riccardio, Perez, even DiResta = the New NVQ way.

Indeed. And people forgot the fact that you need to be a good driver to win, even if the car is competitive. In 2009 after a certain Felipe Massa was hit on the head and had to be replaced, Ferrari substituted him with their reserve driver Luca Badoer. In theory this should have been a straight swap, with Badoer knowing that Ferrari like the back of his hands since he drive it all the time during testing, but it was proven not to be with him trailing Kimi a long way in the races that he entered. Theories were given, saying that the lack of real racing might have been his weakness, thus they substituted him with Giancarlo Fishichella, a driver that nearly won the Belgian Grand Prix in an unfancied Force India if not for Kimi passing him illegally. And yet the result is still the same. He still lags behind Kimi during the races that he enters, and to make matters worse, loosing him any hope of an F1 seat for 2010.

The point here is it does not matter how fast is the car, if you can't perform, then you are out. Lewis performed, and thus he deserve his seat that was given to him.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:15 pm 
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bbobeckyj wrote:
He was lucky to get the drive, at the start of 2006, Macca had 3 drivers signed up. Kimi, Juan and Fernando. I think part of the decision was that after two of them left, they knew that Alonso would be fine, so why not give the second seat their talented rookie and see what happens.



Correct, and I believe that Pedro de la Rosa was close to getting the seat after McLaren was impressed with his performances that year, especially in Hungary, but they took a risk on Hamilton which paid off.

People who criticise Hamilton's easy entrance into F1 are usually people responding to those who make comments along the lines of; 'Hamilton is the best driver ever because he was a race winner in his rookie year', or 'Hamilton has more race wins than Button, therefore he is superior', which don't really take any of the facts into account.

I can see both sides of the argument.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:53 pm 
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People complain that Hamilton started with Mclaren because they generally d'ont know what they are talking about.
In 2007 the big fuss was about Mclaren getting the newly crowned double world champion Alonso.
Alonso was to lead Mclaren to the championship. Lewis showed potential in the lower categories and was given a chance and a token contract to drive the second car and learn. That's it, That's all.

Who is the "Einstein" who thinks a Formula 1 championship contender could only command a 100k salary. That would qualify for insanity.

Ron Dennis and everyone else in F1 world were shocked!
Except maybe for the guy who collected 125k pounds when lewis won the championship a year later, because he contrary to everyone else on the planet did put 100 pounds down 10 yrs before it happened.

Apart from maybe that punter, all professional and armchair F1 experts were understandably IN THE DARK!

When you think of the fate of poor Nelson Piquet jr.,only then do you begin to understand what Lewis Hamilton accomplished starting in that Mclaren.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:19 pm 
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I think jealousy is is one of the reasons or frustration maybe that his driver had to do it the hard way. Ok Lewis had it easier to get noticed because he had a top car for most of his career but he had it not easy vs a double WDC and still matched him. So in that way I think he deserves his top seat.

There are other examples of them not really having to work their way up the grid. Schumi started at Benetton which was or almost a top team at that point. The Jordan he debuted with was defintely no slouch car either. Prost had pretty to very competitive cars for most of his F1 career right from the start too.

Had Lewis started in a lower team I'm sure his talent would have been noticed too.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:37 pm 
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It's largely just something people like to use against him, because some will agree for the sake of agreeing. McLaren didn't just put him in the car because he was British, they put him in the car because they believed he had proved he could perform at a high level. It was a huge risk placing a rookie in a championship-contending vehicle, but he proceeded to beat his two-time World Champion team-mate and almost secure the title. I dare say he showed he deserved the spot in the first place.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:29 pm 
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If you're good enough, you're good enough. I don't really have any opinion wether he deserved it or not. I am however quite convinced that he would be a better driver overall if he came through the midfield teams first. I don't think McLaren is a place to make rookiemistakes. Even though Hamilton did an amazing job in 2007, almost winning in his first year, you could argue that McLaren lost a WDC because they took a risk with Hamilton. If Alonso had a weaker teammate, i'm sure Alonso would have been world champion that year.
I do hope Hamilton will be up there this year, he's a treat to watch, even though i'll never root for him.

IMO Vettel is a prime example on how to mature a driver. 2 years in a midfield team, to make all the major rookiemistakes, then promote him. While also making sure his manager isn't named Simon Fuller.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Most drivers start off in a backmarker or a midfield car but only a small percentage ever become world champion. So that is really no guarantee for success. For example Massa started out that way and it didn't work for him. Of course there are those like Alonso who made it work but my point is that success is not related (not apparently anyway) to whether or not you drive for a small team first. You also run the risk of being booted out of F1 before even having a proper crack, as drivers in slow cars are often hard to judge.

Hamilton's career path is very rare and I can only think of JV who had a similar one. It didn't turn out great for JV but he finished as a WDC nevertheless, and Hamilton has achieved that already.

IMO starting with McLaren was the best that could happen for Hamilton. If McLaren took JB in instead of him that's immediately a minimum of 2 years lost in a top car for Hamilton, by which time as it turns out he has achieved a WDC. Nobody even thinks about Hamilton being outside a top team, that's how good his reputation is.

People generally point to Hamilton's lifestyle and say that he has been spoiled by having too much too soon, and I actually agree to some degree. But his success over 5 years driving for McLaren outweighs that easily. The arrangement, as a whole (not just last season) worked out for both parties.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:50 pm 
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It happens, with other drivers they are jealous. Jealous that a driver came straight to F1 and to a good car.

Theres good and bad points about that, you dont get the experience of fighting through the field - experience was a good strong point for JB doing a better job in 2011. Although other drivers like MSC were in a bad car for a very short time (one race) then signed up for a better team which came to a point of being the team to beat back in 91.

Lewis was a grown racer by Mclaren, he is a product of Mclarens assistance but also his father who sacrificed for Lewis. People will hate that, it is jealousy, its sad but it does happen.

My job I faced a similar situation years ago, as a trainee there was several of us then a job offer came my way. I worked hard for that (I didnt know it was coming) but where as other people were willing to go early every day I was here working till time to go. As a result I got offered a job here and some of the others did not like it.

Lewis worked hard for his seat, Mclaren are a team who want strong drivers and some times it works some times it does not. Insulting/criticism towards Lewis or any driver will always occur.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:32 pm 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Most drivers start off in a backmarker or a midfield car but only a small percentage ever become world champion. So that is really no guarantee for success. For example Massa started out that way and it didn't work for him. Of course there are those like Alonso who made it work but my point is that success is not related (not apparently anyway) to whether or not you drive for a small team first. You also run the risk of being booted out of F1 before even having a proper crack, as drivers in slow cars are often hard to judge.

Hamilton's career path is very rare and I can only think of JV who had a similar one. It didn't turn out great for JV but he finished as a WDC nevertheless, and Hamilton has achieved that already.

IMO starting with McLaren was the best that could happen for Hamilton. If McLaren took JB in instead of him that's immediately a minimum of 2 years lost in a top car for Hamilton, by which time as it turns out he has achieved a WDC. Nobody even thinks about Hamilton being outside a top team, that's how good his reputation is.

People generally point to Hamilton's lifestyle and say that he has been spoiled by having too much too soon, and I actually agree to some degree. But his success over 5 years driving for McLaren outweighs that easily. The arrangement, as a whole (not just last season) worked out for both parties.


Hamilton and Villeneuve had exactly same kind of start in F1, both started in a team able to win WCC and WDC and took title in their 2nd season ... if Hamilton does exactly like Villeneuve.... next step for Hamilton is to go to some new team that is built around him and then fail to succeed and eventually get sacked from the team.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Tumppi57 wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Most drivers start off in a backmarker or a midfield car but only a small percentage ever become world champion. So that is really no guarantee for success. For example Massa started out that way and it didn't work for him. Of course there are those like Alonso who made it work but my point is that success is not related (not apparently anyway) to whether or not you drive for a small team first. You also run the risk of being booted out of F1 before even having a proper crack, as drivers in slow cars are often hard to judge.

Hamilton's career path is very rare and I can only think of JV who had a similar one. It didn't turn out great for JV but he finished as a WDC nevertheless, and Hamilton has achieved that already.

IMO starting with McLaren was the best that could happen for Hamilton. If McLaren took JB in instead of him that's immediately a minimum of 2 years lost in a top car for Hamilton, by which time as it turns out he has achieved a WDC. Nobody even thinks about Hamilton being outside a top team, that's how good his reputation is.

People generally point to Hamilton's lifestyle and say that he has been spoiled by having too much too soon, and I actually agree to some degree. But his success over 5 years driving for McLaren outweighs that easily. The arrangement, as a whole (not just last season) worked out for both parties.


Hamilton and Villeneuve had exactly same kind of start in F1, both started in a team able to win WCC and WDC and took title in their 2nd season ... if Hamilton does exactly like Villeneuve.... next step for Hamilton is to go to some new team that is built around him and then fail to succeed and eventually get sacked from the team.


nah ! JV wasn't that good a driver IMO. He got a couple of good cars and maybe he did have a good season in '97 but TBH he never looked anything like Hamilton. Hamilton will continue to win races if nothing else and he never really looks slow. The way he is going right now he'll probably struggle to win another WDC but I don't see him sinking as deep as JV did.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:59 pm 
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slide wrote:
yawn :uhoh:


.....well i'm sorry bud , it seems ya post was a bigger hit than i thought it was gonna be


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Although he did prove himself more than adequately his "monkeys at the back" comment after only being in the sport a year didn't exactly help him in terms of being respected...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:20 pm 
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slide wrote:
slide wrote:
yawn :uhoh:


.....well i'm sorry bud , it seems ya post was a bigger hit than i thought it was gonna be

Hahaha! To be honest, neither did I ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:57 pm 
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I'm no Lewis fan but I seriously don't understand why anyone would have a problem with how Lewis started his career.

Perhaps Lewis was more prepared than most rookies when he entered F1. Perhaps he had an advantage over some due to using different tyres that others had to adjust to. The pressure that must have been there throughout his career in karting and junior formulae must have been crazy with a McLaren future in his sights. Not only was there pressure on him to succeed on the track, there was pressure on him to be a good individual off the track, including succeeding at school. It seems like everything he did was to help him achieve that one goal of driving for McLaren in Formula 1. And of course, when he got there, the pressure was off. He could've simply been the number 2 everyone expected him to be, and use his first year to learn. Instead, he attacked and proved he was amongst the best.

I think the fact that he has been mistake prone throughout his career has nothing to do with starting in a top team. It's just the nature of the beast. His decision-making behind the wheel doesn't seem to be so great, but that is his style. He's purely instinctive. And while that can (and has) led to his downfall at times it has also led to some unbelievable things, like his three-wide pass at Silverstone and fight through the field in Turkey GP2, or his drive at China last year.

Those who claim Lewis hasn't yet 'learned to drive' really don't have much of an idea what they're saying. What about 2009 and 2010 then, where he was driving perfectly well and making very few mistakes? Ultimately, when Lewis retires, he will do so having won many GPs and at least one world title, and there's not many who can boast that record, regardless of which team they started at.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:22 pm 
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"the monkeys at the back of the grid"

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:57 pm 
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I doubt it's a matter of people complaining about Hamilton not going through the F1 ranks. IMO it's more a reaction to the claim that Hamilton has achieved in few years what many haven't achieved in a career. Otherwise, I'd say it's wrong complaining about such a trivial matter. Personally I don't consider it a negative trait, at best Hamilton is merely lacking what many people seem to consider a positive trait, that is, proving himself in a lower car. While I can see the logic behind it, I doubt it's a "requirement" to form a clear opinion about his skills.

However, oftentimes I find myself against tenures meaning that I'd like all the drivers to remain no longer than three years with a particular team. When you get longterm succesful pairings such as Schumacher-Ferrari; Alonso-Renault; Hamilton-McLaren or Vettel-RedBull you can't help but wonder is it the driver, the team or their combination and you can never know for certain.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Sabrina wrote:
What A BS about the Gold Plate, Vettel was always a RBR protegee. And BMW wasn't a backmarker to start with
Lewis had to earn everything at McLaren, he had to win évery lower series compared to Vettel who had not, and was given a F1 seat without winning GP2
There have always been other young drivers at McLaren development programm, Lewis Hamilton was the only one who came through, therfore he earned his F1 seat there.


To me it is ridiculous to compare what RB did for Vettel to what Macca did for Hamilton. Red Bull RACING didn't even exist when Red Bull they began sponsoring Vettel (and there were already sponsoring many, many drivers) - whereas McLaren was already a Championship team. Later RBR and STRF were formed, but they were not champion teams - they weren't even GP winning teams. Alot of the crew for the teams had no idea what a winning mentality was because they'd never tasted it. They had a lot of good people in place at the top who'd won, but the teams were in no way, shape or form comparable to what Macca had to offer its young protegees. Hamilton was embraced as an up and coming champion by a champion team and crew - where as Vettel first opportunity in racing (apart for subbing for BMW once) was a seat in the non-winning STRF team, where only a few key people knew what it felt like to win in F1. In fact, it was Vettel that turned both STRF and RBR into GP winning teams and the latter into champions.

Hamilton being in a development program for a champion constructor meant that he had the advantage of a race winning mentality from the ground up, a lot of know how on every level, abundant resources and modernization, all of which Hamilton could take advantage of.

And you know what? That is fantastic. Kudos to Hamilton for having all of that - because he earned every ounce of it on merit. He was a fantastic driver in the lower formulas and that is why McLaren embraced him. Naturally when he joined F1, he was brought into the Macca family, because they correctly speculated that he could do very well in a top car. While a youngster being thrust into a top car first thing would have some good and bad consequences, I think overall, it can be said to have been a success. That said, I would say that normally, it would likely be best if you started younger guys out in the lower teams at least for a year - it would help them assimilate to the environment in whatever way they might need.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:12 am 
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Lewis has done his job and has done it well. I know I used to complain about him all the time, but I grew up and just dealt with it. With testing being pretty much limited and Lewis was in a league of his own in GP2 in 2006, my goodness... He earned the right for his seat just the same as JV did when he did great in CART for those two years and even won the Indy 500. I saw no issues because Lewis records were incredible and earned every right to team with Alonso in 2007. He had Alonso on his toes and both learned quite a bit... We all know what happened, but you know its history.

He earned it on merit and its history. Have to respect the decision because he is still there at Mclaren.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:11 am 
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Kiante wrote:
Lewis has done his job and has done it well. I know I used to complain about him all the time, but I grew up and just dealt with it. With testing being pretty much limited and Lewis was in a league of his own in GP2 in 2006, my goodness... He earned the right for his seat just the same as JV did when he did great in CART for those two years and even won the Indy 500. I saw no issues because Lewis records were incredible and earned every right to team with Alonso in 2007. He had Alonso on his toes and both learned quite a bit... We all know what happened, but you know its history.

He earned it on merit and its history. Have to respect the decision because he is still there at Mclaren.

I agree with this 100%. Unfortunately there are many people such as my friend who is a huge F1 fan and very knowledgeable about this sport but harps on and on and on about how Hammy doesn't deserve it etc etc etc. It actually gets annoying after awhile especially knowing my friend isn't a screaming success in his career, yet has issues with a superstar like Hammy.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:41 am 
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E
petef1 wrote:
BoxFullofNeutrals wrote:
amirb wrote:
I can see the problem with Hamilton starting at a top team is where does he go after? He's only been in a top team so, if he does not get a contract renewal, where does he go and will he be able to race as well


That'll depend entirely on his performances as to whether other top teams would be interested in offering him a seat. Until the start of this season, Red bull has been the most successful team for two/three years, so there are teams that can offer the potential to win races/championships other than McLaren...


Plus successful teams are only successfull for so long, the cycle never stops rotating...

Even if we look at the past two decades...

90-91 McLaren
92-94 Williams
95 Benetton
96-97 Williams
98 McLaren
99-04 Ferrari
05-06 Renault
07-08 Ferrari
09 Brawn
10-11 RBR


Hey pete

Do you mean Mclaren was second best car in 07-08? Does that mean that Lewis won in 08 in second best car?

Iam just really interested to hear your thoughts
Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:55 am 
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montyinct wrote:
E
petef1 wrote:
BoxFullofNeutrals wrote:
amirb wrote:
I can see the problem with Hamilton starting at a top team is where does he go after? He's only been in a top team so, if he does not get a contract renewal, where does he go and will he be able to race as well


That'll depend entirely on his performances as to whether other top teams would be interested in offering him a seat. Until the start of this season, Red bull has been the most successful team for two/three years, so there are teams that can offer the potential to win races/championships other than McLaren...


Plus successful teams are only successfull for so long, the cycle never stops rotating...

Even if we look at the past two decades...

90-91 McLaren
92-94 Williams
95 Benetton
96-97 Williams
98 McLaren
99-04 Ferrari
05-06 Renault
07-08 Ferrari
09 Brawn
10-11 RBR


Hey pete

Do you mean Mclaren was second best car in 07-08? Does that mean that Lewis won in 08 in second best car?

Iam just really interested to hear your thoughts
Thanks

He listed the WCCs of each year nothing else. McLaren were disqualified in 2007 from the WCC and in 2008 Kova didn't do as well in the McLaren as Kimi did in the Ferrari. I do think that listing the WDC winning cars would have been more appropriate as it would have shown that it is indeed possible to win a championship in different cars. All of it is pretty useless though. Any F1 worth his/her salt wouldn't need to be told any of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:14 am 
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Vettel's first test in the BMW, and his subsequent dealings with the Formula One team had nothing to do with Red Bull, but was a reward for dominating the Formula BMW, winning 18 out of 20 races.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again; there are mostly two kinds of people that will say this: people that really dislike Hamilton and just want to try and discredit him, and people that respond to the 'Vettel has only ever driven in the fastest cars' myth.

Hamilton wasn't picked up by McLaren because of his shiny white teeth, but because he was a great talent. The fact that he's never performed in a slow car means that, unlike Button, Alonso and Vettel, we don't know how complete a driver he is, but that doesn't detract anything from his achievements at the top.


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