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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Im looking at the Ferrari for this. Clearly Ferrari has made some innovative and radical components on their car. but it seems that they arent getting to understand their car, and it looks like they aren't getting to learn their car because of the lack of track time they are getting. So is the testing limit causing teams to play it safe and comfortable? if there was more testing would teams be more encourage to try out some crazy things?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:04 am 
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Affirmative :thumbup:

Come on, more track time, more analysis of the product. What works and what does not. The engineers can see if they are going in the right direction or see if they need to try something different.

In saying that though, I am sure that by the FIA reducing the amount of on track testing, the F1 teams have been innovative and devised different ways to test the car, and the parts that make that car.

So before I close out and state that I am now not so sure if physical testing does limit innovation, I just want to ask how you think the Ferrari is or looks so innovative because that front nose looks the most basic on the grid and to me looks as if it was born of (sculpted is too nice a word) hacked out used cornflake boxes


Im sticking with yes

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:17 am 
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Khazrak134 wrote:
Im looking at the Ferrari for this. Clearly Ferrari has made some innovative and radical components on their car. but it seems that they arent getting to understand their car, and it looks like they aren't getting to learn their car because of the lack of track time they are getting. So is the testing limit causing teams to play it safe and comfortable? if there was more testing would teams be more encourage to try out some crazy things?


There wasn't loads of innovations all the time before the testing ban so no, i Don't think there's a correlation between technical innovating in f1 and less testing.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:29 am 
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They do but the bigger effect is on performance. Before testing was limited Ferrari was the team with the highest mileage in F1 and able to extensively test their car whenever they wanted. They don't have this advantage anymore and it shows.

I agree that innovation has more to do with regulations, though. The FIA bans everything these days for no reason, which IMO prevents the pecking order from ever being changed by an innovation born at a smaller team.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:16 am 
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Actually, I'd like to jump in and take that one Khazrak134, If you don't mind.

Recent research has shown that empirical evidence for globalization of F1 innovation is very limited and as a corollary the market for technologies is shrinking. As a world leader, it's important for F1 to provide systematic research grants for our engineers. I believe strongly there will always be a need for us to have a well articulated innovation policy with emphasis on Technical resource development. Thank you.

Sorry I blacked out there, what was i saying.... oh right does testing limitations limit innovation? I don't think it does, I think it's the over way around. It forces the engineers to think very specifically and look at the overall picture. Before it was a case of testing for testing sake, sort of brute forcing the season, now it's a much more tailored approach.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:58 am 
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I think that in recent years, innovation has been 'hidden' from the viewing public as it's mostly been under the skin.

The days of cars looking substantially different are over to a certain extent as aero is the new king, but wind tunnels and track time are the only real way to test the effectiveness.

With the ban of track time and wind tunnel usage, the teams are limited to CFD to test parts, but this terchnology is still not capable of predicting performance of an enitre car, or the effect of an element on the remainder of the chassis (a la Virgin).

Another aspect may well be the restrictions imposed by the current regulations, which relies on designers trying to find tiny advantages over the entire car to compensate. Whenever an innovation (double diffusers, F-ducts, EBD's) provides that 0.5 sec or even 1.0 sec advantage, the FIA restricts or bans it to 'level the playing field'.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I think testing limits have affected Ferrari more than most teams, afterall they do have thier own test track at the factory and had an almost unlimited buget so they could test 24/7


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Strict aero regulations limit innovation. Engine freeze didn't help either.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Innovation has tended to be mostly connected with how the rules can be interpreted. The FIA have tried to tighten up the rules to give less scope for finding loopholes and I think this year they have succeeded more than in the past, so I dont think there is much scope for major innovation now, but a lot of optomising still has to be done. I think the test duration is sufficient for that.

I'd only be interested in more innovation if it had some practical application on cars on the roads.

The tightening of the rules limits innovation, and I think that helps the racing be more competitive, so I'm in favour of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:29 pm 
I don't think the testing limitations limit innovation but because engineers have only so much time to prove a component, if it doesn't work right away the concept gets shelved. Some great ideas took time and effort to prove their worth, such as active suspension. Innovation is not limited, but the ability to prove an innovation may be very tight.

But I see lots of cool innovations spring up all the time in Formula one, because the engineers are so intelligent and creative. Most of what happens is under the skin, and not readily seen by the casual observer. Just look at past hot topics, the double diffuser of 2009, mass dampers, F-duct, exhaust blown diffusers, flexible front wings, the Lotus/Renault anti dive thingy, all amazing innovations.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I don't think the testing limitations limit innovation but because engineers have only so much time to prove a component, if it doesn't work right away the concept gets shelved. Some great ideas took time and effort to prove their worth, such as active suspension. Innovation is not limited, but the ability to prove an innovation may be very tight.

But I see lots of cool innovations spring up all the time in Formula one, because the engineers are so intelligent and creative. Most of what happens is under the skin, and not readily seen by the casual observer. Just look at past hot topics, the double diffuser of 2009, mass dampers, F-duct, exhaust blown diffusers, flexible front wings, the Lotus/Renault anti dive thingy, all amazing innovations.


Exactly, because teams cannot risk concepts that need testing miles before unleashing the updates in a race scenario (unless they have little to lose!)

In times gone by, the separate testing teams could carry out work at the teams home circuit almost whilst the a race was going on. I suppose the cost of effectively running two teams was deemed too expensive by the FIA, and that some teams simply couldn't compete this way...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:58 pm 
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No I'd say the FIA do more with their decisions to limit innovation.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Do testing limitations limit innovation? I don't see how they can't.


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