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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:12 pm 
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Irbis wrote:
souvikbh1980 wrote:
If this was the case, drivers wouldn't have clauses in their contracts for this, as was proved by Senna's contract at Lotus.

Gee, maybe, just maybe, Reb Bull Racing are more professional and have larger budget than garage teams 30 years ago. But no, it can't be that, let's grasp any straw, no matter how thin, to prove it's just car and MW wasn't awful driver pretty much ever.


What a dumbass statement to make. If you bothered reading my first post, you would have noticed what I mentioned.

I believe you don't know anything about the driver's contracts at RBR, so you are grasping at straws just as much as you claim I am. So your statement is worth as much as my statement, don't you think?

And just because the media claims a team has a whole lot of budget doesn't mean their productions and schedules are not effected. If I am not mistaken, they can only have a limited number of people working at the factories.

Why is it so difficult for Vettel fans to accept that maybe he might be getting preferential treatment at RBR? He earned it and I would prefer him as well if I was a team owner and he was the driver who would get me more championships and wins? I am big fan of Michael Schumacher and I have no qualms in accepting that he was preferred at Ferrari because I believe he earned it to a certain extent.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Is has got to be the way Webber is handling his car which causing it to break.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:23 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
:thumbup:

PacificBeach wrote:
He was 45 seconds behind Vettel just before the problem. Maybe that is why he is retiring...


Webber simply isn't on the same level as Vettel.


Nobody's on the same level as Vettel, we should cut Webber some slack.


Yet despite all of Vettel's success I think fans seem to have a greater respect for Webber

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:26 pm 
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ColdWinter wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Prema wrote:
No wonder Webber is retiring from F1?

All he needed was to retire from RBR. Not F1.


Ultimately, he is leaving F1, ain't he?

Prema's point is that if Mark was leaving because of this supposed poor treatment he would have just moved teams, not left F1 all together.

He has had opportunities to join other teams in the past & has stuck with Red Bull, some people may believe that the straight talking, no bullshit, Webber would stick with Red Bull despite feeling like he has been sabotaged, but I dont buy it. He is far too bullish to sit back and take it if he honestly thought it was happening.


Black_Flag I respect your opinion, so do you think I'm way off when I say:

I have no idea what MW says in private discussions which could change everything, and am strictly basing my thoughts on Brazil '12 and Malaysia '13, and MW's public comments and attitude regarding SV.

1. I think it's s reasonably possible that RBR are afraid MW might take too many chances if he and SV are racing wheel to wheel.

2. If they are afraid of MW possibly taking SV out (nothing intentional, just racing too hard) do you think they might ensure that that scenario doesn't take place by manipulating MW's car?

If I was team manager and worried about #1, I would do #2.

Why risk the constructors? Kick Webber out early and put Ricciardo in. Its not like its a different organisation who have Ricciardo and they have to wait. He could be in the car in Korea if they wanted him to be.

So that would be the more logical thing to do. However if they did want Mark behind Seb they could just wait till he was behind and tell him he needs to conserve fuel, has an issue etc. They dont need to make his car a ticking time bomb that scored them no points.

There are easier, cheaper and more beneficial ways for Red Bull to sabotage Mark than what we currently see. The current issues with Marks car help nobody.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:34 pm 
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bashcrash wrote:
:thumbup:
mwf1 wrote:
What a pathetic statement pokerman

I saw one Red Bull that could have won that race by one minute whilst the other one was fighting with Ferrari, Lotus and Mercedes with no obvious performance advantage

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
1. Australia (race): Pits to car communication failure on warm up lap
2. Australia (race): KERS failure
3. Malaysia (Q3): Miscommunication with pits for final run
4. Malaysia (race): Team undercuts team mate
5. Malaysia (race): Back-stabbed by team mate
6. China (Q2): Fuelled short. Stops on track and misses Q3. Sent to back of grid
7. China (race): Faulty pit stop release system for first pit stop
8. China (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
9. Bahrain (race): Floor damage early in race
10 Spain (Q3): Tyres go off in quali sector 3 putting him 7th on grid
15. Germany (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
17. Belgium (race): clutch setting issues pre-start resulting in slow start
18. Italian (race): gearbox problem during race, costing him 2nd + chance to push leader, front-wing damage from alonso pass
19. Singapore (race) forced to short-shift, dropped loads of positions, engine gone, car goes on fire.

It's been non-stop for Webber this season (and the last two, to be honest).

Anyway, the F1 world knows what's up it was exposed in Malaysia and Vettel has been booed everywhere ever since. Alonso and Hamilton are still twice the driver he is.


:lol: Get over it mate!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Webber gets 10 place grid penalty at next race. He picked up his third reprimand for getting a lift from Alonso after a race.

Suddenly, the thread title becomes relevant. Fun is banned in F1.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
1. Australia (race): Pits to car communication failure on warm up lap
2. Australia (race): KERS failure
3. Malaysia (Q3): Miscommunication with pits for final run
4. Malaysia (race): Team undercuts team mate
5. Malaysia (race): Back-stabbed by team mate
6. China (Q2): Fuelled short. Stops on track and misses Q3. Sent to back of grid
7. China (race): Faulty pit stop release system for first pit stop
8. China (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
9. Bahrain (race): Floor damage early in race
10 Spain (Q3): Tyres go off in quali sector 3 putting him 7th on grid
15. Germany (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
17. Belgium (race): clutch setting issues pre-start resulting in slow start
18. Italian (race): gearbox problem during race, costing him 2nd + chance to push leader, front-wing damage from alonso pass
19. Singapore (race) forced to short-shift, dropped loads of positions, engine gone, car goes on fire.

It's been non-stop for Webber this season (and the last two, to be honest).

Anyway, the F1 world knows what's up it was exposed in Malaysia and Vettel has been booed everywhere ever since. Alonso and Hamilton are still twice the driver he is.


excuses, excuses, excuses:
In Malaysia he only ended up in lead after they pitted Vettel way too early for slicks. Mark also got the undercut in the 2nd stops and Vettel in the last stops...

In china he hit Vergne from behind and ruined his race.

In Bahrain "I had a damaged floor in the race after damaging it on the exit of turn three early in the grand prix." so even driver mistakes are turned into more excuses now?

Tires going off in Q3? Same tires everybody uses? He probably put too much into tires in S1 and S2 and tires went towards the end of the quali alp.

He lost positions in Spa was due to the lines he took. He was P3 in front of Rosberg in quali. He was just behind Rosberg going into T1.

Formula1Fan. wrote:
Alonso and Hamilton are still twice the driver he is.

Sure... Twice the driver who gets outscored by Button caliber driver :)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:44 pm 
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There's a number 1 and 2 driver. It's only natural the priority will be on the number 1 driver, hence the best equipment, mechanics, engineers etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:01 pm 
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trento wrote:
There's a number 1 and 2 driver. It's only natural the priority will be on the number 1 driver, hence the best equipment, mechanics, engineers etc.


In that sense Hulk should have a more reliable car than Gutierrez's car?

How can you say that the no 1 driver will get the best equipment, mechanics, engineers etc?

Are you trying to imply that Webber is driving 2011 spec car, with his race engineers & mechanics blindfolded during the race weekends?

Surely, Vettel at this stage of the championship, will get all the impetus, but if they don't ensure reliability on the no 2 car, they will wash their hands off the WCC title.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Neutrality wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
1. Australia (race): Pits to car communication failure on warm up lap
2. Australia (race): KERS failure
3. Malaysia (Q3): Miscommunication with pits for final run
4. Malaysia (race): Team undercuts team mate
5. Malaysia (race): Back-stabbed by team mate
6. China (Q2): Fuelled short. Stops on track and misses Q3. Sent to back of grid
7. China (race): Faulty pit stop release system for first pit stop
8. China (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
9. Bahrain (race): Floor damage early in race
10 Spain (Q3): Tyres go off in quali sector 3 putting him 7th on grid
15. Germany (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
17. Belgium (race): clutch setting issues pre-start resulting in slow start
18. Italian (race): gearbox problem during race, costing him 2nd + chance to push leader, front-wing damage from alonso pass
19. Singapore (race) forced to short-shift, dropped loads of positions, engine gone, car goes on fire.

It's been non-stop for Webber this season (and the last two, to be honest).

Anyway, the F1 world knows what's up it was exposed in Malaysia and Vettel has been booed everywhere ever since. Alonso and Hamilton are still twice the driver he is.


:lol: Get over it mate!


He still isn't over "green flag gate" from Brazil 2012. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:34 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Alonso and Hamilton are still twice the driver he is.

Sure... Twice the driver who gets outscored by Button caliber driver :)


He must meant... they are two guys, and two guys are twice a single guy. Plain math.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:13 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
trento wrote:
There's a number 1 and 2 driver. It's only natural the priority will be on the number 1 driver, hence the best equipment, mechanics, engineers etc.


In that sense Hulk should have a more reliable car than Gutierrez's car?

How can you say that the no 1 driver will get the best equipment, mechanics, engineers etc?

Are you trying to imply that Webber is driving 2011 spec car, with his race engineers & mechanics blindfolded during the race weekends?

Surely, Vettel at this stage of the championship, will get all the impetus, but if they don't ensure reliability on the no 2 car, they will wash their hands off the WCC title.


The midfield and bottom team don't have a number 1. There's no reason for them to do so.

Of course it's not going to be one good and another bad car but u just have to look at Schumacher's days at Ferrari to know what i'm talking about.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
:thumbup:

PacificBeach wrote:
He was 45 seconds behind Vettel just before the problem. Maybe that is why he is retiring...


Webber simply isn't on the same level as Vettel.


When the exhaust blown diffuser wasn't working well, Webber was actually faster than Vettel. He's only beating Webber because he has mastered how to slam on the accelerator in the middle of a corner to get more downforce.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
I don't know what you're thinking Red Bull are doing, or what they could possibly be doing that would cause Webber to have gearbox and/or engine problems. There's nothing to it but bad luck.

Being well over half a minute behind your team mate in the same car isn't bad luck.



So after all the disproportionate number of issues Mark's car has had, you still insist they are the same car? Clearly Seb's car get the latest updates first, and clearly RB's updates actually work.

Additionally Mark's size could be compromising packaging of his car, but Seb is NOT that much better than Mark. If you really think so then you also think that Lewis, Alonso and all the team pricipals are morons since they hold the same opinion too.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:34 pm 
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seandean41 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
I don't know what you're thinking Red Bull are doing, or what they could possibly be doing that would cause Webber to have gearbox and/or engine problems. There's nothing to it but bad luck.

Being well over half a minute behind your team mate in the same car isn't bad luck.



So after all the disproportionate number of issues Mark's car has had, you still insist they are the same car? Clearly Seb's car get the latest updates first, and clearly RB's updates actually work.

Additionally Mark's size could be compromising packaging of his car, but Seb is NOT that much better than Mark. If you really think so then you also think that Lewis, Alonso and all the team pricipals are morons since they hold the same opinion too.

A bogey track for Webber & one of Vettel's strongest exaggerates the normal gap IMO, but I dont buy that the cars are not equal.

Do you really think that Mark Webber, a man who speaks out about everything, would stay quiet if Vettel was currently being given a more advanced car?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:36 pm 
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rawsushi wrote:
When the exhaust blown diffuser wasn't working well, Webber was actually faster than Vettel. He's only beating Webber because he has mastered how to slam on the accelerator in the middle of a corner to get more downforce.

Again more nonsense, and more delusion....

Red Bull introduced the EBD mid 2010:
Vettel beat Webber in 2009 and destroyed him in quali 15-2 in 2009 first year he came to RBR.

In 2010 he was much better before EBD too. Only mechanical issues prevented him to start the season with 3 straight victories...

No amount of made up staff will change the history.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:51 pm 
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seandean41 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
I don't know what you're thinking Red Bull are doing, or what they could possibly be doing that would cause Webber to have gearbox and/or engine problems. There's nothing to it but bad luck.

Being well over half a minute behind your team mate in the same car isn't bad luck.



So after all the disproportionate number of issues Mark's car has had, you still insist they are the same car? Clearly Seb's car get the latest updates first, and clearly RB's updates actually work.

Additionally Mark's size could be compromising packaging of his car, but Seb is NOT that much better than Mark. If you really think so then you also think that Lewis, Alonso and all the team pricipals are morons since they hold the same opinion too.

I won't deny that Seb isn't number one. But I understand why team is committed to Vettel. Vettel and Webber got more or less equal treatment in 2009 and 2010. Vettel also had a lot of bad luck in 2009 and 2010. In 2010 despite having awful reliability he beat Webber and won title. Also Webber in 2010 when he was leading WDC broke his hand riding mountain bikes and didn't tell his team. I think it could affect his performance during last races in 2010 as he was disappointing IMO. It's unfortunate but I guess since then Red Bull decided to support Vettel, still I guess Webber received fair treatment. If he felt hampered at Red Bulll he could have always join other team as he was and still is very highly rated driver. I hope he wins at least one race before his retirement.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:51 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
seandean41 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
I don't know what you're thinking Red Bull are doing, or what they could possibly be doing that would cause Webber to have gearbox and/or engine problems. There's nothing to it but bad luck.

Being well over half a minute behind your team mate in the same car isn't bad luck.



So after all the disproportionate number of issues Mark's car has had, you still insist they are the same car? Clearly Seb's car get the latest updates first, and clearly RB's updates actually work.

Additionally Mark's size could be compromising packaging of his car, but Seb is NOT that much better than Mark. If you really think so then you also think that Lewis, Alonso and all the team pricipals are morons since they hold the same opinion too.

A bogey track for Webber & one of Vettel's strongest exaggerates the normal gap IMO, but I dont buy that the cars are not equal.

Do you really think that Mark Webber, a man who speaks out about everything, would stay quiet if Vettel was currently being given a more advanced car?


It would be easyish for RB to give MW a slightly worse car. More worn out components, slightly less powerful engine etc and Mark wouldn't be any wiser

Not that I'm saying they would do it. I doubt any team on the grid would spend millions of pounds to go racing, only to deliberately sabotage one of their own just to uphold a status quo. I find that just absurd.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
seandean41 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
I don't know what you're thinking Red Bull are doing, or what they could possibly be doing that would cause Webber to have gearbox and/or engine problems. There's nothing to it but bad luck.

Being well over half a minute behind your team mate in the same car isn't bad luck.



So after all the disproportionate number of issues Mark's car has had, you still insist they are the same car? Clearly Seb's car get the latest updates first, and clearly RB's updates actually work.

Additionally Mark's size could be compromising packaging of his car, but Seb is NOT that much better than Mark. If you really think so then you also think that Lewis, Alonso and all the team pricipals are morons since they hold the same opinion too.

A bogey track for Webber & one of Vettel's strongest exaggerates the normal gap IMO, but I dont buy that the cars are not equal.

Do you really think that Mark Webber, a man who speaks out about everything, would stay quiet if Vettel was currently being given a more advanced car?


How would he know unless he breaks out his pocket 3D scanner and goes over both cars? Also I do think there are packaging differences on the two cars and perhaps Mark has been made aware that his car has compromised cooling etc and they are doing their best... if nothing else it's a good cover to keep him from throwing a fit.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:43 pm 
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all you guys that think that rbr are out to get Webber are insane why dont you google how much it costs per race per car here is a quick run down

- Monocoque/Chassis: £1m
- Floor: £300K minimum
- Nose cone: £250k
- Front wing: £150K
- Steering wheel: £50K
- Suspension member: £10K upwards, depending on the part
- Tyres: £1,300 per set

diresta crash was probably cost the team 200k

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:02 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
rawsushi wrote:
When the exhaust blown diffuser wasn't working well, Webber was actually faster than Vettel. He's only beating Webber because he has mastered how to slam on the accelerator in the middle of a corner to get more downforce.

Again more nonsense, and more delusion....

Red Bull introduced the EBD mid 2010:
Vettel beat Webber in 2009 and destroyed him in quali 15-2 in 2009 first year he came to RBR.

In 2010 he was much better before EBD too. Only mechanical issues prevented him to start the season with 3 straight victories...

No amount of made up staff will change the history.


You say I made it up?

Here's proof I didn't: http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 76110.html

Webber was faster than Vettel in the first half of 2012 until they got the EBD working to Vettel's liking.

Even Vettel's fairy godfather in the RBR organization conceded that Webber was more adaptable and faster than Vettel in cars both of them are uncomfortable with.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:21 pm 
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Some people might be better thinking before writing.
First: If a team loose the WCC, it costs the team MILLIONS.
Second: The gap performance between SV and MW is so big that there is no need to screw MW, he does that himself with his driving. Before developing problems today MW was almost a minute behind SV.
Third: Do not make any sense to sabotage MW car to favor Ferrari and other teams. MW is almost always battling Ferraris, Mercedes, etc. The sensible strategy for Red Bull is to place MW behind SV to allow the kid to get bigger point gaps per race. In fact, for one reason or another MW almost never finish behind Vettel and almost always Alonso in an inferior car gets easy by.
Fourth: Since they are together SV had more DNF due to mechanical problems than MW, something some people sometimes forget. This year is 1-1,but SV lost a certain 1st and MW a possible 4.
Fifth: SV mainly wins by taking the lead and controlling the gap, that make it possible to keep the car in clean air and avoiding overheating it and breaking down, on the other side, last years MW is always running with the pack and with the tight packaging of the car, it is more probable to get something hot and make problems.
Sixth: If RBR thought they needed to sabotage MW cars, then it was a lot simpler to just send him on paid vacations and put another driver in the car. The people at Red Bull are very clever and smart people, this is why they are running the team. To think that their brains will work at the level of some of the people posting here is just not right. No offense to some very bright and objective people that I find every day in this forum.
There are more things to say but I think it is enough.
By the way, somebody described Vettel's mission as just getting to a corner and floor the throttle and keeping the gap......Well, Vettel does that but you need to have guts to do it, most of the drivers do not even think about driving that way and I think very few in this Forum, even given the ability, had the guts to do it. I myself see the RB cars characteristic in this account as a problem of the car, not a good thing.
To finish, there is still people who think the Earth is plane....they have the right to keep thinking like that ...the same applies here: if somebody enjoy saying and thinking RBR is screwing MW car, let it be, enjoy it. Just do not loose your time trying to convince everybody to think that way.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:48 pm 
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rawsushi wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
rawsushi wrote:
When the exhaust blown diffuser wasn't working well, Webber was actually faster than Vettel. He's only beating Webber because he has mastered how to slam on the accelerator in the middle of a corner to get more downforce.

Again more nonsense, and more delusion....

Red Bull introduced the EBD mid 2010:
Vettel beat Webber in 2009 and destroyed him in quali 15-2 in 2009 first year he came to RBR.

In 2010 he was much better before EBD too. Only mechanical issues prevented him to start the season with 3 straight victories...

No amount of made up staff will change the history.


You say I made it up?

Here's proof I didn't: http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 76110.html

Webber was faster than Vettel in the first half of 2012 until they got the EBD working to Vettel's liking.

Even Vettel's fairy godfather in the RBR organization conceded that Webber was more adaptable and faster than Vettel in cars both of them are uncomfortable with.

What does that article have anything remotely to do with what you claimed??? What proof....

The article is about China GP last year where Vettel reverted to A-spec RB8 for one race but at the end of the GP he agreed the B-spec was better. If anything it shows that RBR continued development towards what they think is the better route not based on Seb's preferences at all...

Secondly first 10 races in 2012, the results are there:
Australia: Vettel 2nd, first RBR podium, even beat Lewis in a faster car. Webber 4th
Malaysia: Vettel was 5 sec in front of Webber after final pit stops before Kartikeyan hit him.
China: Webber 4th, Vettel 5th (The race Vettel tried older A spec design)
Bahrain: Vettel won
Monaco: Webber won, Vettel 4th
Spain: Vettel 6th, Webber 11th
Canada: Vettel 4th, Webber 7th
Valencia: Vettel retired after building up 20 sec lead over 2nd place( not Webber)
Britain: Webber 1st, Vettel 3rd
Germany: Vettel 5th* (after post race penalty), Mark 8th

So in 7 races at Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Valencia, Germany was faster (in some considerably 39sec in Bahrain, 20sec+ in Valencia, 20sec+ in Spain...)

Webber was faster in 3 races at China, Monaco and Silverstone.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:51 pm 
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If Webber had any backbone he would have smashed Vettel off the track following the Multi 21 debacle. I would have and many drivers from the past would have.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:04 pm 
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seriously people: motive?

why would RBR feel the need to sabotage Mark's car? He's 117 points behind, for crying out loud!?

Today he was no threat to Seb and challenging Kimi for third place. I can see plenty of advantages in him getting third but for the life of me I can't see a single one for the team in him retiring. In order for any sabotage theories to work someone has to benefit. Even the most paranoid supporter should be able to see that Seb is so far ahead of Mark that he can't possibly pose a threat in the WDC. So why do people think he's being short changed? Who stands to gain?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:27 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
I don't know what you're thinking Red Bull are doing, or what they could possibly be doing that would cause Webber to have gearbox and/or engine problems. There's nothing to it but bad luck.


We have to sometimes use probabilities and common sense. As a kid before I studied probablities I thought it was so so easy to pick 6 out of 40 numbers and win the lotto.

No matter what evidence they see Vettel and Webber both have 100% equal cars and treatment. Vettel's car isn't the fastest on the grid. And Vettel is the fastest driver on the grid and fastest who ever lived.

What is this? You claim to have studied probabilities, but the post is nothing more than opinion with 0 facts. How do you know the portabilities or numbers: 90%, 1 in a billion, 1 in 1 trillion, 100 times etc? How did you calculate them?

+1. I was hoping for a numerical explanation- not lots of verbiage, culminating with a statement that Vettel is the fastest driver ever.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:41 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
For how many times in a year does he need to short shift?

The flames surely fired his exit in a hurry.

When have we heard Vettel asked to short shift?

Sheesh!


kamidadevil wrote:
vettel was also short shifting in the last race


Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Last race?


ColdWinter wrote:
Er, last race.


Quark wrote:
In Silverstone, Vettel's car gave up due to a gearbox failure. The last race, he was asked to short shift. Even today, he had vibrations and was asked to play safe.


And I only got through about 20 of the 100+ replies before I got bored of quoting people pointing out the obvious. Lol. Why even make a thread like this when you're so glaringly clueless?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:01 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
1. Australia (race): Pits to car communication failure on warm up lap
2. Australia (race): KERS failure
3. Malaysia (Q3): Miscommunication with pits for final run
4. Malaysia (race): Team undercuts team mate
5. Malaysia (race): Back-stabbed by team mate
6. China (Q2): Fuelled short. Stops on track and misses Q3. Sent to back of grid
7. China (race): Faulty pit stop release system for first pit stop
8. China (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
9. Bahrain (race): Floor damage early in race
10 Spain (Q3): Tyres go off in quali sector 3 putting him 7th on grid
15. Germany (race): Wheel nut failure / pit stop error
17. Belgium (race): clutch setting issues pre-start resulting in slow start
18. Italian (race): gearbox problem during race, costing him 2nd + chance to push leader, front-wing damage from alonso pass
19. Singapore (race) forced to short-shift, dropped loads of positions, engine gone, car goes on fire.

It's been non-stop for Webber this season (and the last two, to be honest).

Anyway, the F1 world knows what's up it was exposed in Malaysia and Vettel has been booed everywhere ever since. Alonso and Hamilton are still twice the driver he is.


Very good points. The same thing happen to Webber like clockwork. F1 is 90% the car and how much money you spend.
You will never seen caterham or murrusia winning no matter even if they had Adrian Newey. It is impossible to win on a low budget.

Look at Mercedes for the last 3 years. When I heard schumacher was coming back and then i saw the budget of the mercedes team you knew straight away they cannot win. Yes they won with brawn year before but thats because the budget the year before that and car had 400 million thrown at it and a loophole was found. With a consistant low budget every year they could never ever win and the proof came to light. Just as murrusia can never ever win with a low budget every single year. 100% impossible. Doesnt matter if ayrton senna is driving

Now with Hamilton Mercedes finally increased the budget for 2013.
2012 Mercedes budget was 150 million euro . Redbull 250 million euro.
You cannot compete when somebody buys the championship like that.

2013 mercedes budget increases to 200 million euros and surprise surprise the car is a good second quicker than last year.
If only they increased it another 50 million euro to match redbull they would win quite easily as its all money and the car.

On top teams like mercedes ferrari they spend the money equally between both drivers maybe slightly more on 1 driver.

Teams like redbull do not as we can see by the reliability of webbers car and how parts are removed from his car and put on vettels car. So Vettel does not only have the hands down advantage of the most expensive car in F1
But the team does not split the money equally between cars. I have never seeen even in the ferrari/schumacher days such an uneven split where 1 drivers car is so reliable and the other has problems every week.
So its seems from the 250 million euros 225 million goes to Vettels car and 25 million euros to Webber.
That is lower than the caterham budget as they might have 100 million and split 50 for each car and equal treatment for each driver hence why he seems to have worse reliablity than even the lowest budget teams.

Thats why we seem webber having the worst kers failures and pit stop errors with wheel nuts and throwing him into heavy traffic each time. It seems like they dont even have a computer for his side of the garage. They just guess when to pitt him. No other team even murrusia does this to their drivers. This is beyond anything I have ever seen in 20 years watching F1.
Even the schumacher ferrari era and alonso massa you dont see 1 car having such bad reliablity over another and 1 car having such bad reliablity and pitt stop errors like above.
There is really no other explanation.

Hence why Vettel will never ever be beaten or any driver in that number 1 redbull seat. You throw Bianchi in it and he would win hands down.
Hamilton Merc budget = 200 million euro. Half half Hamilton has $100 million euro car rosberg 100 million car
Vettel budget = 250 million euro . All the money and car designed around him means he gets a 225 million euro car and Webber has 25 milliojn euro thrown at him. Maybe less as they dont even seem to have a simple computer to tell them not not pitt him out in heavy traffic and ruin his car everytime.




Whoever denies vettel's not getting by far all the money then here is proof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z51QddEkkg
Webber was winning the championship in 2010 and they took parts off his car for vettel.
Then Vettel got an entirely new custom made chassis just to get a few more tenths when he complained. Then when webber crashed old chassis given to him no new chassis for him. Even massa got a new chassis last year as that team the budget is nowhere near as lopsided.

Vettel cannot lose and will never lose a championship again when his car has by far the biggest F1 budget.

No driver has a chance to win agaisnt a car like this. Not even the great Senna , schumacher at his prime nobody. F1 is 90% car and nobody can beat a car

Vettel is a triple threat and in 30 years of watching F1 I never seen a team run so smoothly for 1 driver.

A The biggest car budget in F1
B Newey the best designer.
C the most lopsided budget where 1 guy/car gets all the cash. 90% or so.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:01 am 
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rawsushi wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
rawsushi wrote:
When the exhaust blown diffuser wasn't working well, Webber was actually faster than Vettel. He's only beating Webber because he has mastered how to slam on the accelerator in the middle of a corner to get more downforce.

Again more nonsense, and more delusion....

Red Bull introduced the EBD mid 2010:
Vettel beat Webber in 2009 and destroyed him in quali 15-2 in 2009 first year he came to RBR.

In 2010 he was much better before EBD too. Only mechanical issues prevented him to start the season with 3 straight victories...

No amount of made up staff will change the history.


You say I made it up?

Here's proof I didn't: http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 76110.html

Webber was faster than Vettel in the first half of 2012 until they got the EBD working to Vettel's liking.

Even Vettel's fairy godfather in the RBR organization conceded that Webber was more adaptable and faster than Vettel in cars both of them are uncomfortable with.

The problem is the early 2012 Red Bull was probably not going to win any titles

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:12 am 
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souvikbh1980 wrote:
Why is it so difficult for Vettel fans to accept that maybe he might be getting preferential treatment at RBR? He earned it and I would prefer him as well if I was a team owner and he was the driver who would get me more championships and wins? I am big fan of Michael Schumacher and I have no qualms in accepting that he was preferred at Ferrari because I believe he earned it to a certain extent.

Because they are not clowns grasping at any straw? :uhoh: When Vettel was in Toro Rosso did he also have contract stating preferential treatment at RBR? When in BMW? He beat both RBR drivers then, too. Hell, even in 2013, after 3 WDC by Vettel, RB still allows both drivers to race and isn't above asking Vettel to keep station. Had he have the clause you postulate, there would never be any Multi21 affair.

No, any and all conspiracy theories "explaining" mediocre quality of MW are lunacy nonsense, as evidenced above by proof showing SV had more retirements than MW (6:2) and 2/3 of MW "car issues" were him banging up the car. No, the driver is just the one and only issue why second RBR car is so weak.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:31 am 
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Irbis wrote:
souvikbh1980 wrote:
Why is it so difficult for Vettel fans to accept that maybe he might be getting preferential treatment at RBR? He earned it and I would prefer him as well if I was a team owner and he was the driver who would get me more championships and wins? I am big fan of Michael Schumacher and I have no qualms in accepting that he was preferred at Ferrari because I believe he earned it to a certain extent.

Because they are not clowns grasping at any straw? :uhoh: When Vettel was in Toro Rosso did he also have contract stating preferential treatment at RBR? When in BMW? He beat both RBR drivers then, too. Hell, even in 2013, after 3 WDC by Vettel, RB still allows both drivers to race and isn't above asking Vettel to keep station. Had he have the clause you postulate, there would never be any Multi21 affair.

No, any and all conspiracy theories "explaining" mediocre quality of MW are lunacy nonsense, as evidenced above by proof showing SV had more retirements than MW (6:2) and 2/3 of MW "car issues" were him banging up the car. No, the driver is just the one and only issue why second RBR car is so weak.


Dude, as I said you don't know jack fairy cakes about any driver's contracts. You and other Vettel fanatics are just as much speculating as me

But anyways, let me say this.... You are right and I am wrong. Vettel and Webber both have equal machinery. Identical cars with identical everything. And Webber after 12 years in F1 is an absolute imbecile and a worthless driver who has still not learnt how to drive an F1 car and breaks his all the time.. Happy??? x(


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:54 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
ColdWinter wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Prema wrote:
No wonder Webber is retiring from F1?

All he needed was to retire from RBR. Not F1.


Ultimately, he is leaving F1, ain't he?

Prema's point is that if Mark was leaving because of this supposed poor treatment he would have just moved teams, not left F1 all together.

He has had opportunities to join other teams in the past & has stuck with Red Bull, some people may believe that the straight talking, no bullshit, Webber would stick with Red Bull despite feeling like he has been sabotaged, but I dont buy it. He is far too bullish to sit back and take it if he honestly thought it was happening.


Black_Flag I respect your opinion, so do you think I'm way off when I say:

I have no idea what MW says in private discussions which could change everything, and am strictly basing my thoughts on Brazil '12 and Malaysia '13, and MW's public comments and attitude regarding SV.

1. I think it's s reasonably possible that RBR are afraid MW might take too many chances if he and SV are racing wheel to wheel.

2. If they are afraid of MW possibly taking SV out (nothing intentional, just racing too hard) do you think they might ensure that that scenario doesn't take place by manipulating MW's car?

If I was team manager and worried about #1, I would do #2.

Why risk the constructors? Kick Webber out early and put Ricciardo in. Its not like its a different organisation who have Ricciardo and they have to wait. He could be in the car in Korea if they wanted him to be.


Good point, hadn't thought of that.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So that would be the more logical thing to do. However if they did want Mark behind Seb they could just wait till he was behind and tell him he needs to conserve fuel, has an issue etc. They dont need to make his car a ticking time bomb that scored them no points.


There are easier, cheaper and more beneficial ways for Red Bull to sabotage Mark than what we currently see. The current issues with Marks car help nobody.


I agree with your opinion of today's events, no one would intentionally risk a car on fire for any reason.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, I admittedly like a bit of conspiracy lol.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:05 am 
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Red Bull have found extra pace on that car from something, which is on Vettel's car and isnt on Mark's (coz he's retiring).

There wasnt this much of a gap between drivers throughout the year, be it Mark of any of the other drivers, period.

Whether what they have found is legal or illegal (they WERE found cheating last year) is up for debate and wont be solved unless they are found out.

Only time will tell.......


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:03 am 
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I found this on another site.

The 2013 Italian Grand Prix marked the fifth race in a row that a Red Bull encountered mechanical issues. Following Vettel’s retirement in Silverstone, Webber’s horror pitstop in Germany and both drivers’ mechanical issues in Hungary, Webber’s clutch issues at the start of the Belgian Grand Prix, both Red Bulls suffered gearbox issues at Monza. As this is the last year of the explosive pairing of Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber, I looked through the history books to see how mechanical issues, team orders, and clashes with each other have affected both Red Bull drivers.

2009
China: Vettel can only make one run in each qualifying session due to driveshaft problems.
Turkey: Vettel is given the team order not to challenge Webber for 2nd place.
Belgium: Webber had an unsafe release during his pit stop, leading to a drive-through penalty.
Hungary: Vettel retires with suspension faillure.
Europe: Vettel has to make a 2nd stop because of fuel rig problems, and then retires with an engine problem.
Singapore: Webber retires with a brake problem.
Japan: Webber has issues with his headrest, forcing him to make 2 extra pit stops.

2009 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 4 issues (3 mechanical issues, 1 team order), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 3 issues (2 mechanical issues, 1 significant pit stop issue), 1 leading to a DNF

2010
Bahrain: Vettel loses the lead due to a spark plug failure, dropping him back to 4th.
Bahrain: Webber had a slow pit stop, which lost him a position to Button.
Australia: Vettel retires from the lead due to a brake failure.
Spain: Vettel has brake issues late in the race, which drop him back from second to third place.
Monaco: After Monaco, it is found that Vettel’s chassis was cracked.
Turkey: Vettel loses out on pole position due to a broken anti-rollbar.
Turkey: Webber loses the lead after Vettel colides with him.
Canada: Webber had to change his gearbox, leading to a 5-place grid penalty.
Canada: Vettel has gearbox issues during the race.
Europe: Webber drops behind Kovallainen after a slow pit stop
Britain: After a front wing failure left the team with one new spec front wing, Webber was given the old spec.
Germany: Webber had an oil pick-up problem late in the race.
Italy: Vettel’s engine shortly died half-way through the race.
Korea: Vettel retires from the lead due to an engine failure.
Brazil: Webber struggles with high engine temperatures in the race.

2010 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 8 issues (8 mechanical issues), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 7 issues (3 mechanical issues, 1 team order, 1 team-mate clash, 2 significant pit stop issues), none leading to a DNF

2011
Australia: Webber had KERS issues in Q2 and Q3.
Australia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race.
Australia: Webber had problems with his chassis.
Malaysia: Webber had no KERS in Q3.
Malaysia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race.
Malaysia: Vettel has brake problems late in the race.
China: Webber qualifies 18th after electrical problems in practice.
China: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Spain: Vettel had KERS issues during qualifying.
Spain: Vettel had KERS issues throughout the race.
Monaco: Webber had radio issues shortly before his pit stop, causing a slow stop.
Canada: Webber had KERS issues during qualifying.
Europe: Webber had gearbox issues later in the race, dropping him from 2nd to 3rd.
Britain: A faulty wheelgun at his pit stop drops Vettel from the lead into 2nd place.
Britain: Vettel has KERS issues late in the race.
Britain: Webber was given team-orders not to challenge Vettel, who had KERS issues.
Britain: Vettel was challenged by Webber, who ignored the team orders not to.
Germany: Vettel has brake issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber had no KERS in Q2, which returned in Q3.
Hungary: Webber’s DRS failed during Q3.
Hungary: Vettel has brake issues during the race.
Belgium: Webber misses the pit call and had to go for another lap.
Italy: Webber had KERS issues in qualifying.
Singapore: Webber had no DRS during the race, which he believed dropped him from 2nd to 3rd.
Abu Dhabi: Vettel has a tire puncture in turn 1.
Brazil: Vettel has gearbox issues, which drops him from the lead, to finish 2nd.

2011 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 12 issues (10 mechanical issues, 1 significant pit stop issue, 1 team-mate clash), 1 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 15 issues (12 mechanical issues, 2 significant pit stop issues, 1 team order), none leading to a DNF

2012
Australia: Both Vettel and Webber had KERS issues in qualifying.
Malaysia: Vettel’s radio stopped working shortly after the restart.
Bahrain: Webber had no KERS for the first lap.
Spain: Webber is held too long in Q2, making him miss out on Q3.
Spain: Both Vettel and Webber had to have their front wing changed during the race.
Canada: Webber has engine issues early on in the race.
Europe: Webber had DRS issues in qualifying, which left him at the back of the starting grid.
Europe: Vettel retires from the lead due to an alternator failure.
Germany: Webber had to change his gearbox, leading to a 5-place grid penalty.
Germany: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber had an issue with his differential.
Belgium: Webber receives a 5-spot grid penalty for a gearbox change.
Italy: Vettel retires with an alternator failure.
India: Webber’s KERS issue dropped him from 2nd to 3rd.
Abu Dhabi: Vettel’s fuel pump issues in qualifying sent him to the back of the starting grid.
United States: Webber retires with an alternator failure.
Brazil: Vettel’s start is affected after Webber ignored instructions not to challenge him.
Brazil: Webber is issued a team order to let Vettel pass.
Brazil: Vettel’s radio stops working, leading to wrong tires at the pit stop.
Brazil: Vettel’s last change of tires saw a 7.6 second slower pit stop.

2012 score card
Sebastian Vettel: 10 issues (8 mechanical issues, 1 team-mate clash, 1 significant pit stop issue), 2 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 12 issues (10 mechanical issues, 1 team orders, 1 significant pit stop issue), 1 leading to a DNF

2013
Australia: Webber has ECU/KERS issues for the first part of the race.
Australia: Webber returns in traffic after the front jack failed in the pit stop.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to challenge Webber half-way through the race.
Malaysia: Vettel is given a team order not to overtake Webber after the final pit stops.
Malaysia: Webber loses the lead after Vettel ignores a team order.
China: Webber lost fuel pressure in Q2.
China: Webber’s wheel comes off during the race.
Britain: Vettel retires from the lead with gearbox issues.
Germany: Webber’s first pit stop goes disastrous, which puts him back at the end of the field.
Germany: Vettel has KERS issues during the race.
Hungary: Webber has KERS issues during qualifying.
Hungary: Vettel has overheating and KERS issues during the race.
Belgium: Webber has clutch issues at the start of the race.
Italy: Both Vettel and Webber have gearbox issues, which causes them to have to short-shift.

2013 half-season score card
Sebastian Vettel: 6 issues (4 mechanical issues, 2 team orders), 1 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 9 issues (6 mechanical issues, 2 significant pit stop issues, 1 team-mate clash), 1 leading to a DNF

4.5 year score card
Sebastian Vettel: 40 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 2 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 45 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:38 am 
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Why on earth does this forum have to resort to arguments this low? before this place got revamped and undesirables were kicked out the discussion was still better than this.

Red bull do not hinder webbers car. they have the same car.

The most important difference (and I dont know WHY formula 1 fans are struggling with the notion) is that in clear air, your car goes faster and you decide what you want to do, when to push, when to ease up, when to pit, how long you want to bed in your tyres, if you need to trim your engine, how the car feels in its set up. We see the fight for clear air in every race, we see it around pit stops, we see it during quali sesssions.

Vettel is likely to win 4 world championships, and thats great-hes a good driver. But the comments comparing him to the second coming are overblown. Of course he is faster than webber when hes out front, just as hamilton or rosberg or alonso are when they get out there. Saying that 'no one could catch him' is true, no one could when every car behind him was within 2 seconds of eachother.

So yes, webber was slower than vettel today, as he has been all season. When you spend your race running against other cars you will be.

Dont get me wrong, Vettel is seriously fast, and a better qualifier than webber. But surely the basic knowledge of how racing works must dictate to the most stubborn fan boy that if you put any formula 1 level driver doing their own thing and pushing 61 qualifying laps with no limits then theyre bound to be faster than their team mate, or any other competitor. We even heard it in the press-room after the race from the man himself "it felt great where we were in the middle of the race, it was driving better than in friday practice and qualifying".


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:51 am 
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ob1kenobi.23 wrote:
I found this on another site.

4.5 year score card
Sebastian Vettel: 40 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 2 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 45 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

Whatever you and anybody else write, mate, it doesn't matter how long and detailed the analysis is, it will never change the conspiracy believers' belief.
Trust me.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:58 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Teams like redbull do not as we can see by the reliability of webbers car and how parts are removed from his car and put on vettels car.

I guess you need to read ob1kenobi.23's post.
And if it's the Silverstone 2010 front wing saga again, for a thousandth time, Webber previously stated the wing wasn't advantageous for him. He only made it a story bomb after the wing he didn't like was used by Vettel to clinch the pole.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:14 am 
Christ, I can't wait until the season's over and we can stop all this 'Webber is being sabotaged' nonsense, although I suspect the Webber fans will become Ricciardo fans and all we'll hear is 'RBR are sabotaging Danny' when Vettel is ahead after the first Qualifying session of the new season.

Vettel is a better driver than Webber. Get over it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:32 am 
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ob1kenobi.23 wrote:
I found this on another site.

4.5 year score card
Sebastian Vettel: 40 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team order, 2 team-mate clashes, 2 significant pit stop issue), 8 leading to a DNF
Mark Webber: 45 issues (33 mechanical issues, 3 team orders, 2 team-mate clashes, 7 significant pit stop issues), 3 leading to a DNF

This.

Zoue wrote:
seriously people: motive?

why would RBR feel the need to sabotage Mark's car? He's 117 points behind, for crying out loud!?

Today he was no threat to Seb and challenging Kimi for third place. I can see plenty of advantages in him getting third but for the life of me I can't see a single one for the team in him retiring. In order for any sabotage theories to work someone has to benefit. Even the most paranoid supporter should be able to see that Seb is so far ahead of Mark that he can't possibly pose a threat in the WDC. So why do people think he's being short changed? Who stands to gain?


Zoue your logic is flawed, there was clearly a serious threat that Mark was going to go 40 seconds quicker in the 2nd sector and beat him to the flag.

Red Bull had to sabotage Webber last race because an extra 18 points for them & Seb only gaining 3 points over Alonso in the championship as opposed to 7 would have been the worst possible outcome for them........

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